public pension promises

[HFWR]

Probably thirty years ago, I read in the local rag's nursing home news that Dick Head of Tacoma, Washington was in town to visit his aunt. Think I'd have to change my name...............

 

[Spanky]

Spanky,

Come in to my office. Recline here on the couch, tell me about your childhood. Did your mother beat you? UmHmm. How do you feel about that?

Our time is up for today... NEXT!

Good afternoon, Mr. Galt.

BUM,
Thanks for the counseling session. Yes, my mother did beat me, but it had nothing to do with my political viewpoint, if any.

SPanky

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

I have decided if they ever adjust the rankings here to cover more
than posting volume, perhaps "quality of content" should be factored in somehow. BTW, misspell is not hyphenated

JG

I know Johnny...just did that to give you a little boost for the day. I actually went back and put the hyphen in there just to see if you'd bite. Call all your mensa friends and tell them that you 'did it again!'

I could hardly imagine anything finer than seeing a quality level applied to the postings here. I'm sure the queries for nude pictures of your fellow male forumites and posts about how you used sheer brainpower and willpower to marry someone that pays the bills will be considered highly rewarding...

 

[Spanky]

The local Firemen have been winning in court for over a decade now - the judges say the law is the law - pay them the money you owe them.

The City has said - you can't get blood out of a turnup - aka go pound sand - so what if we lied and screwed you on back pay and benefits. Life is hard - the tax money isn't there.

Negotiations continue.

This reminds me of a song by Karen Carpenter. The title of the song was "We've Only Just Begun." The words "We've only just begun to live, White lace and promises ... we're on our way. And yes, we’ve just begun..." describe the beginning of a cordial relationship. The relationship between the local fire fighters and the government, however, demonstrates how love turns to hostility if promises are not kept.

 

[Mr._johngalt]

I know Johnny...just did that to give you a little boost for the day.  I actually went back and put the hyphen in there just to see if you'd bite.  Call all your mensa friends and tell them that you 'did it again!'

I could hardly imagine anything finer than seeing a quality level applied to the postings here.  I'm sure the queries for nude pictures of your fellow male forumites and posts about how you used sheer brainpower and willpower to marry someone that pays the bills will be considered highly rewarding...

Are you jealous?

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Of?

 

[BUM]

Today's employee public or private needs to understand that ultimately his or her financial wellbeing is an individual responsibility. Relying on a corporate promise of a pension is gambling with your future.

Here is a look at the S&P 500's biggest underfunded pensions.


http://www.forbes.com/work/2005/06/13/pensions-ibm-hp-cz_bc_0613pensions.html

Things for workers to consider:

How healthy is your pension fund?
When will you be eligible to collect?
How dependent will you be on those funds?
Is your company likely to be acquired?
Is your union losing its grip as alternative labor sources emerge?
What say your legislators? When the votes are at risk, who will they support?

 

[Spanky]

BUM,

May be you should post this to another thread "private sector pension promises" since the government can always raise taxes or print money to pay for their pension obligations.

Spanky

 

[JonnyM]

TH is right that service jobs pull down the private sector's earnings per hour figure. However.state and local managers and professional staff earned $42.87 an hour last year, while their private sector counterparts earned $41.52. So even the white collar workers do a bit better.

I'm sensing some apples and oranges comparisons in those numbers. I'd love to see a link to the article if possible. I'm at the top of my game in a local government public sector job, and I never did and never will approach even the so-called average figure above. Wah! In my agency of about 1000 employees, exactly 4 make more than that average. Period. The director and 3 assistant directors for the divisions.

On the upside, while for decades I used to just toss the annual Retirement Board report right out the window, I've been studying it the past 5 or 6 years, and let me tell you, those guys just ROCK! They so have it together, making money each and every year, they are very good at what they do. And the ratios look pretty good too. About 4000 paying in while just a few hundred are collecting. And hey, guess what, they're old and will soon expire! :

 

[Chris24]

NO idea if it was brought up , but ... no matter if it is public or privite pensions, it is/was part of the compensation package/contract you sign up for when you start work. Compensation that is deffered , many times by signing up for less.

For companys not to honor their contracts due to management misteps is criminal. This goes for goverment also. Sad part is management and goverment officals reward themselves lavishly for the crappy jobs they do, making the worker feel like it's their fault. Trouble is it's all legal, ... highly immoral , but legal.

 

[tozz]

That's my sense too, Jonny.  I work in a large agency that includes a wide range of occupations.  I've always paid close attention to compensation in the private sector for similar jobs in similarly complex corporations.   Although you can always find exceptions, generally private sector pays better; public sector retirements are better. 

I'm sensing some apples and oranges comparisons in those numbers. 

 

[grumpy]

That's my sense too, Jonny. I work in a large agency that includes a wide range of occupations. I've always paid close attention to compensation in the private sector for similar jobs in similarly complex corporations. Although you can always find exceptions, generally private sector pays better; public sector retirements are better.

That was my experience too. While working for NASA as a financial manager of a flight project I got to know my counterpart, the financial manager of the project for the prime contractor (a major aerospace corp). Our responsibilities and staff were similar. He told me what he was making - nearly twice my gov't salary. I retired from the gov't with a very nice pension at age 55. My guess is he is still working and looking forward to social security someday.

Grumpy

 

[Caroline]

...no matter if it is public or privite pensions, it is/was part of the compensation package/contract you sign up for when you start work. Compensation that is deffered , many times by signing up for less.

For companys not to honor their contracts due to management misteps is criminal. This goes for goverment also.

What Chris said!

Call me radical (and I'm sure someone will ;-)  but I don't get the United Airlines pension ruling.  I understand that United didn't have the money to fund the pension AND stay in business, but why does staying in business win out over pension obligations? 

What I mean is, if United had liquidated itself -- sold off the planes, the routes, the equipment, etc. -- wouldn't it have been able to take the proceeds and fund retirements?  I guess the flaw in my reasoning is that a lot of people would be out of work as a result, but other (read:  better managed) airlines would have taken over the routes and reemployed them.   I understand that if a company does go out of business it must pay its workers before its creditors -- why isn't a pension part of those workers' "pay?"

I don't get why the company's staying in business (and shareholder interests) trump its paying its workers what it owes them.

in my humble and perhaps ignorant opinion...
Caroline

 

[Michael]

You are talking about justice. The courts rule based upon man's law, not justice. You won't get justice in this world, as the laws don't support it.

 

[Martha]

Caroline, I have not followed the United Airlines case but I do know how Chapter 11 bankruptcy works. For most contracts, a debtor in bankruptcy can freely assume or reject the contract. Collective bargaining agreements get special protections under the bankruptcy code. Before a collective bargaining agreement can be rejected, the debtor must make a proposal for what would constitute modifications in employee benefits and protections necessary to enable the reorganization of the debtor and which assures everyone is treated fairly and equitably. The debtor must then negotiate in good faith with the union. The court can only reject the collective bargaining agreement if the debtor does these thing, the union refuses to accept the debtor's proposal without good cause, and the balance of equities clearly favors rejection of the contract.

So it isn't easy to reject the contract.

Without getting too muddy here, it is very difficult to get a plan of reorganization approved for a debtor unless the equity holders (the stockholders) end up getting nothing. Inotherwords, the owners of the company won't be owners anymore. There will be new owners--often former creditors. Basically, unless creditors like the employees accept the plan, the creditor employees can be assured that equity holders will get nothing if the employees are not paid their claims in full.


Also, if the company ended up being liquidated and assets sold, most often unsecured creditors get little or nothing. Lenders which finance the business almost always have the company's assets pledged as collateral for the loans. The collateral is sold and if the lenders are lucky they come out whole. After all the expenses, there is rarely left anything for unsecured creditors like employees.

I have been involved in Chapter 11 bankruptcies for a number of large companies and the end result isn't pretty for anyone. What I do think needs more attention is reviewing activities of managment before bankruptcy for possible claims against management.

 

[haha]

What Chris said!

Call me radical (and I'm sure someone will ;-)  but I don't get the United Airlines pension ruling.  I understand that United didn't have the money to fund the pension AND stay in business, but why does staying in business win out over pension obligations? 

Life has a bias toward the future. Same reason we lavish more on our kids than our parents. A profitable airline is good for the econmy, good for its emplyees, good for the country.

Retirees are yesterday's producers.

haha

 

[Caroline]

From Martha:

Also, if the company ended up being liquidated and assets sold, most often unsecured creditors get little or nothing.  Lenders which finance the business almost always have the company's assets pledged as collateral for the loans.  The collateral is sold and if the lenders are lucky they come out whole.  After all the expenses, there is rarely left anything for unsecured creditors like employees.

Thanks for the education, Martha.  That helps a lot.  It's tough to see hard-working individuals get the shaft after working all their lives, but it doesn't sound like there was anything that could be done to help these poor United pensioners once the feathers hit the fan.

Rather, it sounds like one should focus one's congressperson, etc. on closing the barn door before ALL the horses are out, and save like mad in the meantime in case your savings are all you end up with.

General Motors (nyse: GM - news - people ) is $8 billion in the hole, while IBM (nyse: IBM - news - people ) is facing $7 billion. The latter two giants need another 117 years and 47 years, respectively, to meet their obligations, which themselves are moving, and ballooning, targets.

Thanks again,
Caroline

 

[BUM]

BUM,

May be you should post this to another thread "private sector pension promises" since the government can always raise taxes or print money to pay for their pension obligations.

Spanky

Thought about it Spanky but I figured more people would see it here. That Martha has an audience


BUM

 

[Spanky]

[qoute]...I'm at the top of my game in a local government public sector job, and I never did and never will approach even the so-called average figure above. ..
JonnyM,

My bother-in-law works for the Alameda county DA office as a MIS manager. The salary is: MANAGER, DATA PROCESSING TECHNICAL SERVICES, $6,817.20(min) to $9,106.93(max) per month -- $7961.5 (average) or $49.76 per hour, slightly better than $42.87.

Obviously, this may not a fair number since it is in an expensive area.

Spanky

 

[JonnyM]

JonnyM,

My bother-in-law works for the Alameda county DA office as a MIS manager. The salary is: MANAGER, DATA PROCESSING TECHNICAL SERVICES, $6,817.20(min) to $9,106.93(max) per month -- $7961.5 (average) or $49.76 per hour, slightly better than $42.87.

Obviously, this may not a fair number since it is in an expensive area.

Spanky

Agreed, I would expect a BayArea County to pay more, and he needs it too, to pay for his BayArea Real Estate. Or he lives next door to me and lives much of his life inside a slowly moving auto. On a weekend it's about 1 1/2 hour from my location in the Central Valley, just over the Altamont, but I could never have stood the commute on a workday.

I'd be curious what his private sector friends with the same responsibility make (those that survived the Tech Crash), I'd be suprised it wasn't similar to Grumpy's ratio of about double. :