Wow! Wild! OOfah

OH.....

And by the way... I FULLY expect that my SS will be reduced by a factor of 15% to 25% of what was 'promised' me... and I have been paying into that system for many years... and that system does not favor high salaried people.. and is based on your earnings for your whole life, not just the last few years.. so I am not asking anything different to happen to you that is not happening to me...

But, I am not asking that the current people that are receiving payments or that are about to receive payments be reduced, just that we start to scale back so we do not have a crisis in the future...
 
Leonidas said:
As they take away money from the back side (pensions) they will just have to give it up front on the salary.  My former employer is desperate for qualified new hires - they are offering $10,000 signing bonuses. 

By my observation Leonidas, you are correct.  And they consider it a good trade-off.  Many corporations are gladly providing signing bonuses, enhanced performance bonus structures, stock options and one year merit payments while reducing retirement benefits and permanent salary increases.  This enables them to pay more when things are going well and less when they aren't.  Pension promises and permanent salary increases lock the corporation into high labor costs regardless of business conditions.  It seems to be to their benefit to pay what it takes up front rather than lock in permanent higher costs.

Freshouts I hired in the last few years before retiring seemed pleased with our signing bonuses and starting salary levels and not at all worried that the Megacorp I worked for had eliminated the DBP pension and retiree health plan benefits for new hires.........

I was just glad they didn't eliminate pensions and health plan benefits for veteran employees........!   ;)  Yet!   :eek:
 
Texas Proud said:
My sister did 41 years of teaching... and I suggested that she 'game' the system buy doing everything she could do to get extra pay the last three years... she taught summer school.. she tutored through the school.. she took classes that were paid days...  and she got a higher pension...

In Illinois, it was common for teacher union contracts to spell out that teachers who announced their plans to retire three years prior to retirement would receive large raises (15% - 20% area) in each of their final three years in lieu of their normal seniority step raises.  This enhanced their pension levels tremendously!

Effective this year, the teacher retirement system caught on and requires school districts who give these types of raises during a teacher's final three years to make significant incremental payments into the retirement system to fund the higher pension levels.  I think we'll see a reduction in the practice.

And yes, there is an amazing increase in extra duty contracts for coaching, summer school, tutoring, etc., during those final three years too!
 
. and I suggested that she 'game' the system buy doing everything she could do to get extra pay the last three years... she taught summer school.. she tutored through the school.. she took classes that were paid days... and she got a higher pension...

Texas Proud

And where is your personal responsibility in this? Oh, nevernmind, you and yours got theirs. Maybe you should run for office.
 
2B said:
Anymore?  Based on my exposure to DMV, they never did.

Too bad. I've had very good service at the DMV in Maryland and Wisconsin (the last 2 states in which I have resided). When I moved to MD, the clerk gave me some advice which saved us several hundred dollars in taxes. The lines were long, but I don't blame that on the employees on duty -- they have to administer the eye test for each driver's license, for example, and that takes some time.
 
honobob said:
. and I suggested that she 'game' the system buy doing everything she could do to get extra pay the last three years... she taught summer school.. she tutored through the school.. she took classes that were paid days... and she got a higher pension...

Texas Proud

And where is your personal responsibility in this? Oh, nevernmind, you and yours got theirs. Maybe you should run for office.

I am NOT going to tell my sister to not do what everybody else is doing so she can save the system a few bucks.... that is just plain stupid... and I am going to take advantage of all tax breaks I can take.. again, stupid if I do not (and I BET that all the dems who complain that we are not taxed enough are taking advantage of ALL thier tax breaks)....

The problem is that everybody can and most are doing it... so the volume of people doing it is great... but even if it was not.. the system is too costly... change the system for all...
 
Texas Proud said:
Finally, and this is from memory so it could be off a bit..  and it happened a number of years ago... the mayor decided to give the police chief a 'raise' just before he retired... he got ONE, yes ONE check at this higher rate... and his pension went up by many 10s of thousands of dollars a year.. the city counsel repealed his raise as quickly as possible, but it was too late.. he had gotten that ONE check and he now quailified for the higher amount...
A few years ago the military started tweaking the annual raise with targeted increases at certain ranks.  The idea was to raise retention among the mid-terms (those with 6-12 years of service) to retain their valuable experience & leadership skills.

Apparently the system wasn't perfectly executed.  So five months before I retired (at 20 years of service) I received a 5.7% raise that was immediately factored into my 50%-of-base-pay pension and my lifetime COLA.  That 5.7% could have been handed out as a one-time bonus or a tax-free allowance but it was handed out in the most expensive way possible... for the rest of my life.  I collected 10 checks at that new pay level and then retired.

While I had to shake my head at the math, I quickly appreciated that I was finally being paid another 5.7% closer to what I was actually worth.

Locally, UH finally severed its connection with Evan Dobelle.  The guy was the worst leader they ever had and he was essentially fired.  Yet, because he managed to hang onto the state employment system for five years, he's now entitled to $20K/year for the rest of his life!

The bureaucracy finds plenty of ways to use the rules against us. It's our job to find the loopholes and bring them to the attention of the bureaucrats, and I figure the best way to do so is to set a personal example.
 
I guess I'm jumping in here kinda late, but a similar thing is happening right now in a neighboring city. The new police contract was apparently written in such a way that pensions were based on a person's highest pay. Wouldn't you know, a whole bunch of officers took all the overtime they could, then quickly retired. Some of them are getting pensions that are larger than their regular salary was! The whole mess is now in dispute (arbitrarion, lawsuits, etc.) Glad I don't live there!
 
I guess I'm jumping in here kinda late, but a similar thing is happening right now in a neighboring city.  The new police contract was apparently written in such a way that pensions were based on a person's highest pay.  Wouldn't you know, a whole bunch of officers took all the overtime they could, then quickly retired.  Some of them are getting pensions that are larger than their regular salary was!  The whole mess is now in dispute (arbitrarion, lawsuits, etc.)  Glad I don't live there!

I think this was the same for NYC... there were a lot of people retired after 9-11 with all the overtime they put in guarding the ruins... don't get me wrong... I think the police are paid little for what they do (not sure of NY, but for Houston it is true).. but a pension should NEVER be based on anything but base pay...ever...
 
When the Feds changed to FERS twenty odd years back, the actuaries set it up to be self sustaining. The defined benefit portion (including COLA) is funded by the employee's contribution plus an agency contribution (which is actually paid into the system and calculated in the budget as a part of payroll cost). The DB part is supplemented by Social Security and a 401K package (Fed contribution also part of the budget). This is no different than any corporation. The main difference is that the DB portion is invested soley in Treasury issues just like Social Security (remember the "lock box") :LOL: The fact that our elected leaders keep robbing the lock box is our own fault - we keep putting them in office.

Also, I can't remember the exact details, but part time work is credited for annuity calculations in proportion to it's comparison to full time. So someone who works 20 hours a week for 27 years and then full time for 3 does not get an annuity based on 30 years full time. You could pull that off by working full time for 27 years as a clerk and then getting hired on to a high paid job for three years. But the only way I can see that occurring is a political appointment :D. Once again, we reap what we sow.

The impression I got years back when I used to pay attention to this stuff was that a lot of state government's were structuring their retirement systems along similar lines. Did they bail on those efforts?
 
The bottom line is that if the last year or two or three for that matter are padded they should not count toward the pension. That is plain manipulation of a poorly regulated system and give people like me and others who work our arses off for 30 years playing by the rules and NOT kissing anyones srae look as bad as the scum who do that.

Heck In NJ I coached three seasons and made an additional 20K a year BUT it DOES NOT COUNT TOWARD MY PENSION!!

But to read about pension abuse you would think I am making out like a bandit.

Nope I sold my overpriced house moved to a cheaper area bought a great new house with a small car payment for a mortgage and decided to take the early retirement benifit which costs me 11% forever and will work part time to enjoy life and not be a slave to about 10K additional pension if I stayed 4 more years. I could be dead in 4 years, I will have recieved 140K over the next 4 years and my lifestyle will be soooo much better!
 
Wow you guys sure get hot under the collar :D

First off there is a big big difference between the Feds and local govs. No comparision. Under CSRS if you didn't complet the time and age requirement you didn't get anything, like the military. Also CSRS didn't pay into Soc Sec and if they do get a little it is severly reduced by law, hows them apples??

Under the new Fed Employees Ret system one contributes into one's own account and manages their own 401k like program and there is a small pension based on years of service and average of top three also with an age factor thrown in to screw things up a bit. But, the new fed employee can and does contribute to Soc Sec and will collect benifits as anyone else, or not as the case may be.

It is a complicated system and most employees cannot explaine it to themselves or anyone else. Very little counseling is given on its benefits and potential.
How ever it is saving money for the taxpayer as it is fully funded by both parties.

My 2 cent worth
Kitty
 
Texas Proud said:
... don't get me wrong... I think the police are paid little for what they do (not sure of NY, but for Houston it is true)…

Amen, Brother!

Texas Proud said:
but a pension should NEVER be based on anything but base pay...ever...

Not saying who still puts paychecks into my credit union account until I officially retire…but, I do happen to know a few things about how HPD salaries and pensions are calculated (I collect weird trivia). It’s an interesting story and explains why that agency’s pensions include pays other than just base salary. It also illustrates how such things tend to come about.

Prior to 1998, HPD pensions were calculated as a percentage of base pay. In the early 1980’s, it was one of the best paying major city departments in the country and attracted lots of applicants from across the nation. That’s a good thing, because 2,500 applicants will produce 75 new hires for the academy. However, by the late 1990’s the department was not even competitive within its own county and the pool of interested applicants was shrinking while active employees were leaving for better paying jobs at other agencies.

In 1998, then Mayor Lee Brown agreed to give HPD a much needed pay raise to try and stem the tide of trained and experienced employees leaving. He told the police union that there were X dollars in the budget available to fund the raise and they should make some proposals as to how it would be allocated. The major proviso being that increases to base pay should be kept to a minimum. The main reason for that provision was that Houston local law requires that police and fire base pay always be equal. Every dollar budgeted for police base pay equals about 50 cents going into the fire department budget. Since the fire department was well paid compared to other big city departments (and the mayor and the fire union hated each other), the money would have to be allocated in new pay categories to insure most of it went to the police department.

Some of the extra pay is not considered when computing pensions (equipment pay, most overtime, training pay, etc.) but others, the ones that directly contribute to improving the department’s ability to do its job are part of the pension. Most of those are based on individual employees achieving higher levels of education, being awarded upper level licenses from the state licensing authority, working in hazardous assignments, learning a foreign language or ASL, being assigned to night or weekend shifts (when it’s busier), or filling jobs that would normally go to a higher paid/rank employee. Overtime is only added in if it is part of a “strategic patrol” function that the department has identified as critical to operations, and then it is figured on a three-year average.

Some people did "game" the system for a brief period of time when there was transition from one pay and retirement concept to another. A few people took advantage of loopholes that existed for a brief period of time. I'm sure, hypothetically speaking, that if I found myself near retirement and saw such loopholes wherever it was that I worked, that I would have taken advantage of as many of them as I could. But, the loopholes are closed now.

What currently exists is a system of extra pays in addition to base pays, with the extras promoting more educated employees who want to work the busy shifts, who want to take on the more demanding and dangerous jobs and learn new skills that will directly benefit the people they work for. All new hires have associate degrees or better, most mid managers have bachelors degrees and all upper level managers have at least masters degrees. But that's just the minimum level. It's not too uncommon to have everyday uniformed patrol officers who have LLD's or PhDs.
 
At the risk of adding gasoline, it seems wise to point out that it doesn't matter what's right and who is owed what. If there's no money there, there's no money there.

In this context, I'm wondering about the Orange County bankruptcy of some years ago involving some kind of municipal bond offering. It would seem that like United Airlines, a bankruptcy filing could erase even a government pension. As for the feds, when they need the money they'll just redefine the inflation adjustment. Or . . . people for years have been saying the enormous gov't debt will eventually force a bankruptcy. I always thought that was wacko, but who knows ?
 
rodmail said:
At the risk of adding gasoline, it seems wise to point out that it doesn't matter what's right and who is owed what. If there's no money there, there's no money there.

In this context, I'm wondering about the Orange County bankruptcy of some years ago involving some kind of municipal bond offering. It would seem that like United Airlines, a bankruptcy filing could erase even a government pension. As for the feds, when they need the money they'll just redefine the inflation adjustment. Or . . . people for years have been saying the enormous gov't debt will eventually force a bankruptcy. I always thought that was wacko, but who knows ?

Chapter 9 gives municipalities some incredible protection from creditors. They can't be force to sell anything held "in public trust" like city hall or the library, and they don't have to turn over tax revenue. The bankruptcy courts also face a lot of restrictions as to how far they can go in forcing a bankrupt city to change how it spends money.

Just another reason that I am thrilled that my pension system is independent from the city.
 
Gumby said:
Part of what kept them in the schools was the promise of a pension.
And getting to go home in the afternoon, and getting summers off, and getting Christmas off, and getting many other holidays that most people in private industry only know about because they have to find alternate day care for their kids.

And how about the problem that the US educational system is excremental? Don't teachers figure into that somewhere?

If it weren't for the very powerful teachers' unions, k-12 would have been privatized years ago, and this problem would be nearing its solution, both as to cost and performance.

It’s the old problem- the teachers are smart enough to know that they have a very sweet deal, and that many of them couldn’t come within 100 yards of duplicating it in industry or in privte schools. So they organize, and fight tooth and nail to hang on. The citizens, who fund this largesse have other things to worry about.

Plus, in many communities to be against teacher’s raises is to be against America itself.

Ha
 
HaHa said:
And getting to go home in the afternoon, and getting summers off, and getting Christmas off, and getting many other holidays that most people in private industry only know about because they have to find alternate day care for their kids.


It’s the old problem- the teachers are smart enough to know that they have a very sweet deal, and that many of them couldn’t come within 100 yards of duplicating it in industry. So they organize, and fight tooth and nail to hang on. The citizens, who fund this largess have other things to worry about.

I know I'm late to this party but I felt I needed to add my voice here. I am not a teacher but I have heard the above opinion voiced over and over, primarily from people who really do not know what the teaching job entails.  They see that school ends at 3 pm and assume that is the end of the working day. Not true at all! Teachers work past the end of the school day and usually into the evenings, preparing, grading papers, etc. etc.  People see that teachers have the summers off and assume they are not working. True, some have a long vacation. But even those spend much of their summer preparing for the next year, taking continuing education classes. And many others work at other jobs to supplement their income.

Teachers spend their own money to buy school supplies.  My daughter in law furnished her second grade classroom with couches and bookshelves for a reading nook for her students. This is common!

And, most of all, teachers are motivated to become teachers not by salary or a "cushy" retirement promise, but because they enjoy the work (most of the time) and feel that sense of being useful to the community and helping children achieve educational goals. I am not a teacher but I admire those in the profession very much and resent the attempt to demean an honorable profession.

There are so many other areas in our society that are full of corruption. Why not forcus energy on that?  Bashing teachers' unions, etc. etc. is such a low blow that I had to take this opportunity to step in.
 
If you think $45,000 salary (with 11% peeled off the top for the pension fund--and a match that's less than most coporations provide) for someone with a science degree from a great school who's been working for 5 years in a suburb of Boston (expensive COL) and can look forward to raises that match but rarely exceed inflation is a great deal--then take it!
 
This same teacher pay discussion is happening simultaneously on other threads!  Must be a hot topic!

We can all try to subjectively critisize or defend teacher pay.  There are lots of sound bites to toss out either way.  But, in the end, it will be market forces that most equitably do the job of determining appropriate pay levels. 

If a school district's pay and benefit structure is attracting plentiful, qualified teachers, then the pay is adequate.  If it isn't, they better increase it.

Here in suburban Chicago, there are long lines of qualified teachers waiting for jobs.  The surplus is great enough that most semi-professional education positions, such as day care and teacher aid, are staffed by certified teachers, many with masters degrees, waiting for their chance at a teaching spot.   It would hardly seem appropriate to up the pay scales and attract even more folks into the field.

Downstate, in rural areas, there are some spot shortages.  And, the pay is significantly lower.  What a surprise!  Maybe it's time to up those pay packages a little?
 
youbet said:
If a school district's pay and benefit structure is attracting plentiful, qualified teachers, then the pay is adequate.  If it isn't, they better increase it.

Amen! And don't forget, the supply is kept artificially low by the bizarre requirement that a teacher be trained in teaching, but not necessarily very well in whatever he or she is supposed to teach. It would be like a football team hiring a coach that hadn't played football. Schools don't do that, because they care about outcomes on the field.

Plenty people might be attracted to teaching, except that it is hard for anyone with a 3 digit IQ to stand 4 years of "teacher training".

I know some people here are very intelligent very well prepared teachers. But I also personally know lots of teachers who can't even use reasonable English.

Privatize schools, or give vouchers, and 95% of the problems will disappear. Teachers and the whole bloated educational bureaucracy know this- that is why they fight it so hard.

Ha
 
I find it funny how everyone who thinks teaching is such a great gig, really has no idea.

I have taught coached three seasons which means the day ends at 6pm everyschool day, plus all day saturday, the additional money is NOT added toward pension. I worked every summer teaching summer school or painting houses. So the line teachers get the summers off and so much holiday time is a bunch of BS.


Holidays off well when you coach you work everyday except Xmas day. And get this we even worked on NEW YEARS EVE at a track meet! 7 hours that day, got home 10pm! Was responsible for 57 students, Try it !

By the way that IS why I am LEAVING NOW! 71 school days until Dec 22!

I just have had it. Sure I might take a position down here in NC but at a PRIVATE School!

Might even say screw it and work in a bookstore or whole foods!
 
newguy888 said:
I find it funny how everyone who thinks teaching is such a great gig, really has no idea.
Anyone who has to spend their workday telling my kid what to do...

... is underpaid.
 
I think it is a bunch of BS about salary... and work conditions..

Newguy... YOU chose to do those things... you did not have to coach (unless of course you are hired as a coach... well, then you made your decision)... You (all teachers, not just newguy) knew what the wages were when you got into the profession.. it is not like you were blindsided with... 'well, we WERE planning on paying you $100K but now we are only going to pay $50K because revenue has dropped'...

You DO only work 185 or so days vs. 230 to 250 for your salary... you do get a pension that is better than 95 to 99% of workers..

Is it a profession where you can get rich?? No... but it is not as bad as some here make it out.. or there would be NO teachers.. and again... you made an informed decision on your career path.. nobody held a gun to your head and said "TEACH"..

Oh... and the chance of getting fired is slim.. you almost have to have sex with your students... being a lousy teacher is not enough..

I would love to teach... but, I can make more money doing what I do.. so I continue to do so until I have the nest egg to leave..
 
Nobody is paid really what they are worth. Many many people work really long hard hours.

teachers or anyone gets paid what they or their union can negotiate.

You always have the option to vote with your feet if you don't like your deal.
 
HaHa said:
Amen! And don't forget, the supply is kept artificially low by the bizarre requirement that a teacher be trained in teaching, but not necessarily very well in whatever he or she is supposed to teach. It would be like a football team hiring a coach that hadn't played football. Schools don't do that, because they care about outcomes on the field.

Plenty people might be attracted to teaching, except that it is hard for anyone with a 3 digit IQ to stand 4 years of "teacher training".

Ha,
That's a huge advantage that a private school principal has--he/she can hire a teacher who has true life experience in a subject and not care if if the person has been through the education "training." These folks often turn out to be superb teachers--and they'll do it for less money than they'd make in a public school. These (typicaly no-nonsense) teachers also like the fact that the school can easily get rid of disruptive students, and that the other parents demand it. Finally, the principal can fire teachers who aren't getting the job done. Try THAT at a public school. Qualified, conscientious teachers love working in an environment like that.
 
Back
Top Bottom