Sad Story

[Moemg]

So sorry for your loss .Health care has gotten out of hand in this country . We desperately need to be able to take care of our citizens maybe at a more basic level without the horrendous costs that are present today .

 

[ERD50]

I'll start at the end -

I hope someone closes this thread before I blow a gasket and .....

Why not put the thread on ignore, rather than impose your idea of what is suitable for discussion or not on others? I think we can each decide that for ourselves. I ignore some threads. And most everyone is in agreement to a large extent - they all want reforms to the system. So why can't this be discussed?

Getting health care does not equate to "living the good life" for me.

I think you are misinterpreting what we are saying. Under the health care system that we have had, like it or not (and I don't like it), one needs to take some action to be covered. It appears that this person chose to do what she loved, and that didn't come with coverage. Some of us chose to do things we really didn't 'love', in order to get/maintain that coverage. So in a way, she was "living the good life" by doing what she loved. I know people who did what they loved, and took a second job to get the coverage, or got it through a spouse. You make sacrifices. youbet gave an excellent example of this earlier.

Again, I don't like the system we've had, but you have to play the cards you are dealt.

Originally Posted by ERD50
However, I find it offensive that they use this sad case to paint anyone who doesn't feel that 'ObamaCare' is the best/only solution as some kind of heartless monster.

The article did not say that.

It certainly implied it, at least that is how I read it:

Melissa died because she couldn't afford to see a doctor.

In light of a federal court judge's decision yesterday to overrule the Obama healthcare law,...

RE: Getting a $50/month policy for my son:

A woman her age could not get even close to $50 a month, and may very well not be insurable.

Of course not, and I didn't mean to imply that. What I was saying is I know people in the exact position my son was in, who didn't bother to get that $50 policy.

-ERD50

 

[youbet]

As a Canadian, it seems bizarre to me that in the US, education is seen as a fundamental right (everybody everywhere is allowed to go to school till age 18, right?)

You don't understand the USA education system. Yes, publicly funded education is mandated but it varies dramatically in quality from community to community. Children in different communities receive very, very different educations. Calling education a fundamental right would be a stretch IMO.

Up here, health care is as fundamental a right as education. We don't have mandatory insurance, or even subsidized insurance. We just have a "Health Card," just like a driver's license. You bring it to the hospital and they treat you. End of story. No bankruptcies, no ruining of credit. Just the care you need, no questions asked. I don't understand why the US is so resistant to a similar model.

We're resistant because it's painful to decide how to pay for it. Traditionally, middle and lower class Americans want something for nothing, a way to scam the system, a way to have others pay for what they receive. Upper class types just want to pay as little as possible and support as few others as possible. We'll arm wrestle this one until one of the political parties has enough of a majority to ram something through and then we'll get on with it. In the meantime, FIRE wannabee's will speculate on how they'll be able to RE with publicly funded health insurance they get for free or at a highly subsidized rate.

It's just different down here.......

 

[Katsmeow]

Responding to a few....

We were very close friends when we were younger. We grew apart toward the end of high school. She ended up as a writer. Several years ago we got in contact again. I visited her when I visited my mother. She was living in the house she inherited from her mother, the house she grew up in. The house was paid for and was close to where my mom lives. That is a few hundred miles away so we mostly keep in touch through Facebook and email.

She edited a book of stories that did well, was a fairly well published short story writer, worked as a teacher for a time. She loved writing though. For the past few years she mostly made money as a reviewer and doing interviews for Publishers Weekly as well as from her stories. But not a job with health care insurance.

In Memoriam: Melissa Mia Hall, 1956-2011 « Genreville

[By the way I don't see her as being depressed at all. She loved art and writing and was very vibrant.]


No, she couldn't afford health insurance. She had a fall that required medical treatment a year or so ago that almost bankrupted her. It seems so backwards to me that people who *don't* have health insurance get charged 10 times as much as those who do.

My understanding is that she got behind on her real estate taxes and had a payment plan with a payment due on 1/31. If she went to the the ER would they treat her? Sure. But she couldn't afford the huge bill.

I'm sure that if she had realized that her pains were heart attack symptoms she would have done that. On her facebook page she posted early last week that she had injured herself picking up her dog. She then posted several times during the week that she was in a lot of pain. She was so happy when her doctor apparently called in a prescription for her.

I have no doubt that if she thought she was having a heart attack she would have gone to the ER. But, she had a looming tax deadline (and even with a homestead you have to pay your real estate taxes) and she thought she had pulled a muscle. So many talk about all the "unnecessary" doctor visits that people make. I'm sure she didn't think that this was life threatening.

If she had gone to the ER and they said she had a pulled muscle from lifting her dog, how many people would be saying she was frivolous in making an unnecessary visit?

We can certainly debate as to the best healthcare system. And I'm not saying that Obamacare is the best we can do. I do think it is better than what we have now which clearly doesn't work.

Maybe some would say that she should have had a job with health insurance. And maybe she could have had one if she picked a different field of endeavor than the writing she did. Yet, is that how we really want our country to be? Where you have to pick your work based upon whether it gives you health insurance? And what about all the jobs that don't offer health insurance? Bear in mind, she did work ... just not for places that offered health insurance.

 

[Martha]

I'll start at the end -



I think you are misinterpreting what we are saying. Under the health care system that we have had, like it or not (and I don't like it), one needs to take some action to be covered. It appears that this person chose to do what she loved, and that didn't come with coverage. Some of us chose to do things we really didn't 'love', in order to get/maintain that coverage. So in a way, she was "living the good life" by doing what she loved. I know people who did what they loved, and took a second job to get the coverage, or got it through a spouse. You make sacrifices. youbet gave an excellent example of this earlier.

Again, I don't like the system we've had, but you have to play the cards you are dealt.


-ERD50

You are blaming her and the 50 million other uninsured people for being in the position they are in. They could have done this, they could have done that, they could have gone to college, they could have picked a different job . . . And how do any of us know that they could have done better? We don't. We all play the cards we are dealt.

I guess you are right. To spare my blood pressure I need to use the ignore function.

 

[Martha]

Maybe some would say that she should have had a job with health insurance. And maybe she could have had one if she picked a different field of endeavor than the writing she did. Yet, is that how we really want our country to be? Where you have to pick your work based upon whether it gives you health insurance? And what about all the jobs that don't offer health insurance? Bear in mind, she did work ... just not for places that offered health insurance.

Again, I am so sorry. These stories break my heart. There are so many people who struggle to earn a living. I wish it was different.

 

[ERD50]

You are blaming her and the 50 million other uninsured people for being in the position they are in.

Well now, that's a bit unfair, isn't it? Remember, I keep saying the system is in need of reform.

So I put some/most of the blame on our messed up system (and most of the mess up can be traced back to govt intervention - tying coverage to employment). But I also think it is over-reaching to say that 50 million (or whatever number) are uninsured through no fault of their own. Many of those people choose to be uninsured (it's available, and at reasonable prices, yet they don't pursue it), some don't take the extra effort that is required under our messed up system to get coverage.

I don't know enough about this individuals situation to comment more fully, but it is at least reasonable to question if she could have taken reasonable steps to obtain coverage. Maybe she really had no options, but many do and just don't take those steps.

-ERD50

 

[FIREd]

I am sorry for your loss Kat.

 

[Purron]

Just got back from seeing my Doctor and am surprised this thread is still open. Ironic that I was thinking about this topic while waiting for my excellent Doc to give me a check up - routine, preventative, "50,000 mile maintenance" kinda stuff. He's a great Doc - taught at the University of Virginia Medical School and is highly respected. He takes his time with me and makes sure I get the best of care. Plus, he has a great sense of humor and makes a medical appointment something not so dreadful.

I have insurance so this is not an issue for me personally, but I think so much about people who don't have access to decent health care. If they go to an ER, I doubt they would get the quality of health care I'm fortunate enough to receive.

Since this topic keeps coming up in different threads, I think there is a strong desire to talk about health care - an issue which certainly pertains to early retirement. It would be great if we could find a way to talk about this issue without the thread getting closed.

Speaking of closed threads, I see RonBoyd's is now closed. I don't understand why. I would have been unhappy if I had been away from my computer for a day and didn't even get a chance to say something to him before the conversation was ended.

 

[Texas Proud]

/snip/
I know all sorts of people who don't get medical care because they ca't pay for it. It might just mean not going to the dentist, but even that can have long term consequences. It might mean not taking medications, which can lead to bigger problems later. Like others here, I also know someone who avoided a doctor because she had no insurance and ended up dying of breast cancer because it wasn't treated early enough. Sure found a lump, but convinced herself it was probably nothing, as most lumps turn out to be. Things had gone too way to far by the time she went to the doctor. Now her husband rationalizes it as "it was her time."

/snip/


I hope someone closes this thread before I blow a gasket and do a Ron Boyd. There is no way to divide the deserving from the undeserving. I value having an educated and healthy population, so I think everyone is deserving. We can make it a right if we chose to make it a right. Getting health care does not equate to "living the good life" for me.

Tool to try to defend health care reform? So what. The story has some relevance.


And we don't have to live like monks to have national health care. Though it might do Charlie Sheen some good to live like a monk for a while.

Martha... just a couple of comments on what you wrote... just having health insurance does not mean the person would still be alive either.. giving example of people dying because they did not does not mean the exact opposite.. One of my oldest sister's best friends died a few years ago with colon cancer... she put off having a colonoscopy for years... she was having problems, but thought it was hemorrhoids... by the time she went to the doc it was way to late.. she died in 6 weeks...

We all are making up what the person would have done if they had insurance... but there are a lot of people who do not like doctors and will only go if they have to.. therefore, I don't usually jump to the conclusion that if they had insurance all would be fine...


Since you quoted me for your last comment about blowing a gasket..... I don't know why you would be so upset at my comment.... wanting the thread to be closed (I do admit that it got offline quickly since the OP was just commenting about her friend passing)..

I was trying to make a point on the Charlie Sheen comment in the article... insinuating that he was wasthing his money and this lady lay dying in her bed... I resented that comment... and made another ridiculous statement about every Starbucks drinker (which if you think about it is a lot more money than Charlie blows)... they are wasting their money drinking that expensive coffee while this lady lay dying... but we all make choices in where we want to spend our money... some have a lot of money and can blow it with 'blow'... others do not have a lot and just live paycheck to paycheck... but can find money for beer and cigs...

I would love to think that it is as easy as you seem to indicate to change our system... I just don't see it...

 

[Texas Proud]

/snip/

No, she couldn't afford health insurance. She had a fall that required medical treatment a year or so ago that almost bankrupted her. It seems so backwards to me that people who *don't* have health insurance get charged 10 times as much as those who do.

/snip/

I'm sure that if she had realized that her pains were heart attack symptoms she would have done that. On her facebook page she posted early last week that she had injured herself picking up her dog. She then posted several times during the week that she was in a lot of pain. She was so happy when her doctor apparently called in a prescription for her.

/snip/

If she had gone to the ER and they said she had a pulled muscle from lifting her dog, how many people would be saying she was frivolous in making an unnecessary visit?

A response to a few of your statements...

I AGREE 100%!!! I am amazed at the price that shows up on the insurance SOB I get when something 'big' is done... my wife had foot surgery and the hospital bill was $10,000... the cost to our health insurance was $2,000 (which we paid since we have a bid deductible)... but, if we did not have insurance they would have billed us the $10K


Your second stmt goes to the heart of the matter IMO... she did not think anything was wrong except for a pulled muscle... as I said before, she might not have gone to a doctor even with insurance..... so making the article with a theme of 'how poor it is that a woman has to die because she is scared of the cost' just does not hold water for me... you can go to a clinic for $100 or so... which she should have done for the meds she got... they might or might not have caught her problem.... but since she did not worry about her symptoms, I do not see any other outcome even with insurance...

I have no problem with someone going to the doctor for pain... it is not a choice of 'I have insurance and can go to a doc' or 'I don't have insurance and have to go to the ER'... she could have gone to a local clinic which is a lot less cost than ER... if the doc did not find anything, you pay the $50 to $150 and you are done... maybe with a prescription, maybe not... but pain means something is wrong... if it is new pain it is best to get it checked...

 

[dex]

Sad, sad story. The subject of the story who died last week was my childhood best friend. Seems like such an unnecessary death.

The Lipstick Chronicles: The Least Among Us

That you friend died under such circumstances is sad.

That her death is being used by the author to make points about the health care issue (and that political support or opposition of the same by Melissa Mia Hall is not mentioned) is a poor reflection on the author. It would have been better to celebrate her life. The author usurped the death for his own agenda.

I think it is appropriate to comment the health care issues when discussing society in general. But, to use the death of one person of which we know little for political points is wrong.

 

[Purron]

I think it is appropriate to comment the health care issues when discussing society in general. But, to use the death of one person of which we know little for political points is wrong.

This is done by many authors to illustrate a point and make it more personal and understandable. For example, consider Bill Gates talking about a little boy he met in Africa that died of AIDS to promote his charity work. The AIDS problem is hard to understand because it's so big - the dealth of one little boy when you see his face makes the tragedy seem more real. There are many examples of using a story about one person to promote understanding of a message. It's used in just about every type of communication - business, religion, politics, education, advertising, etc.

 

[Silver]

"Many of those people choose to be uninsured (it's available, and at reasonable prices, yet they don't pursue it), some don't take the extra effort that is required under our messed up system to get
coverage". ERD50

ERD50....I do not agree with your statement above at all. In many cases, individual health insurance is NOT available at an affordable cost. Some people make a huge effort to try and get health coverage under our "messed up system" only to be turned away time and time again. This is because they cannot afford the cost for catasrophic coverage plus paying 100% of their healthcare costs because the deductable is so high. Sometimes it comes down to a choice......buy healthcare insurance and be homeless, or have a home and hope for the best.

Perhaps you don't live in the United States so don't understand our current healthcare system. It isn't an emotional issue....and it's not personal. It's just business. Healthcare if is simply a product just like toothpaste or printer paper. If you can buy it, you can get it.

 

[dex]

This is done by many authors to illustrate a point and make it more personal and understandable. For example, consider Bill Gates talking about a little boy he met in Africa that died of AIDS to promote his charity work. The AIDS problem is hard to understand because it's so big - the dealth of one little boy when you see his face makes the tragedy seem more real. There are many examples of using a story about one person to promote understanding of a message. It's used in just about every type of communication - business, religion, politics, education, advertising, etc.

Yes, and that is why using Melissa Mia Hall death to make point about health care are inappropriate. Melissa Mia Hall death and life is being used by the author's points about health care. We do not know why Melissa Mia Hall
- didn't go to the doctor
- didn't have health insurance
- position on the health insurance debate
- would approve on her life and death being used by the author to make the author's points.
That is why the author is wrong in this article.

As far as Bill Gates - the child and/or parents could be asked for permission to be used in such a way. They would then have the decision to be associated with Bill Gates etc. (If you mean a general 'boy' that is less personal that what is being discussed here.)

The difference is that Melissa Mia Hall could not be asked by the author for that permission.

 

[Bestwifeever]

Kat, as I said, I am so sorry about your friend. I think the person who mentioned she had been depressed got that idea from the link you provided:

Sad stories quickly spread. A writer, artist and longtimereviewer for such esteemed publications as http://thelipstickchronicles.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c57f753ef0148c8342d75970c-pi Publishers Weekly, Melissa had been depressed over finances and the death of her sister years before. Most recently, her beloved dog, Daisy, had been sick and she had strained herself lifting her. It had been a bleak winter of worries and frustrations and fear.

I remember 25 to 30 years ago that affordable health insurance was readily available through associations, guilds, etc., for people in the creative arts to join. That model seems to be gone for the most part--I just checked the Chicago groups I know about and it's no longer offered. But that still was a group policy, so even that wasn't the solution to affordable health insurance for all.

 

[snodog]

So sorry to hear about your loss. Maybe this will draw attention for change so that healthcare will be a right in the US someday.

 

[Bestwifeever]

...Since this topic keeps coming up in different threads, I think there is a strong desire to talk about health care - an issue which certainly pertains to early retirement. It would be great if we could find a way to talk about this issue without the thread getting closed.

Any thread is likely to be closed when discussion deteriorates into partisan political commentary and sniping.

Speaking of closed threads, I see RonBoyd's is now closed. I don't understand why. I would have been unhappy if I had been away from my computer for a day and didn't even get a chance to say something to him before the conversation was ended.

As admin JanetH suggests (after she explained the rationale behind closing that thread), people can PM RonBoyd with comments if they wish.

 

[Texas Proud]

ERD50....I do not agree with your statement above at all. In many cases, individual health insurance is NOT available at an affordable cost. Some people make a huge effort to try and get health coverage under our "messed up system" only to be turned away time and time again. This is because they cannot afford the cost for catasrophic coverage plus paying 100% of their healthcare costs because the deductable is so high. Sometimes it comes down to a choice......buy healthcare insurance and be homeless, or have a home and hope for the best.

Perhaps you don't live in the United States so don't understand our current healthcare system. It isn't an emotional issue....and it's not personal. It's just business. Healthcare if is simply a product just like toothpaste or printer paper. If you can buy it, you can get it.

I think the point is that people throw around a number of between 30 and 50 million without insurance... but when that number was actually put to scrutiny it was not as 'bad' as it looked.. a lot of people could afford insurance, some could get help from the gvmt (medicaid)...

The point is we do not know why she did not have insurance... and we will not be able to find out either.... and as mentioned before, we do not know if the outcome of this story would have changed if she had insurance...

 

[ERD50]

"Many of those people choose to be uninsured (it's available, and at reasonable prices, yet they don't pursue it), some don't take the extra effort that is required under our messed up system to get
coverage". ERD50

ERD50....I do not agree with your statement above at all. In many cases, individual health insurance is NOT available at an affordable cost. Some people make a huge effort to try and get health coverage under our "messed up system" only to be turned away time and time again. ....

I don't think we really disagree, we just need to look at my words more closely - I said "many" choose, I didn't say "most" because I don't know if that is true. And I agree with you - our messed up system makes it difficult (often impossible in practical terms) for many people to get insurance. It is one of the reasons we need reforms.

But I take exception with broad numbers like "50 million". I don't know what the real numbers are for people who are effectively "shut out" of the system, I imagine a search would come up with some questionable number that might at least give us a rough range. But I absolutely do know people who could have bought cheap policies and didn't, I absolutely do know people who could make more of an effort to hold a job that does provide coverage, etc. And if I know some of those people, I'm guessing it isn't an insignificant number overall.

-ERD50

 

[FIRE'd@51]

This story, plus the many cases I know of, are the main reason why I am a huge supporter of Obamacare.

Just curious. Exactly how did Obamacare help in this case?

 

[Major Tom]

Just curious. Exactly how did Obamacare help in this case?

It didn't. That was his point. Obamacare doesn't kick in until 2014.

 

[FIRE'd@51]

It didn't. That was his point. Obamacare doesn't kick in until 2014.

Oh, that's great. Help is on the way in three years. Wonderful. What about all the people who need help now or they will probably be dead by 2014?

 

[obgyn65]

Hi ERD50 - The last time I debated with you on this topic, the thread was closed as deemed "too political". This time I will stay away from this thread.

But I also think it is over-reaching to say that 50 million (or whatever number) are uninsured through no fault of their own.

 

[Katsmeow]

FWIW, the author of the article is a novelist who was a friend of Melissa's. I also think we do know why she didn't have health insurance. It was money. I think the facts if looked at reasonably indicate that she thought it was a non-life threatening injury from picking up her dog. She had in the past called a doctor and asked for a prescription to try to avoid the cost of the visit.

We can speculate that even with health insurance she might have called for the prescription and not gone to the doctor. No one can know what would have happened. I think it is without doubt that she would have had more and better choices if she had insurance or if we had a somewhat different healthcare system (I still can't wrap my head around the fact that people without insurance paid more. I had gall bladder surgery a couple of years ago and what the insurer paid was a small fraction of the billed cost).