Any recent experience with buying a solar system for your house?

[ERD50]

They'll catch on by and by. Ours has gotten pretty good about the fancy homes here that have gas pipes and electric wires in the wall.

Yes, and there is a shut off for gas & electric. The problem, as I understand it, is there is no way to get to the panels to shut them off.

I don't know if firefighters won't spray water until they've verified the power is off or not. And maybe the concerns over solar panels are over-blown. But it would be interesting to ask, and get input from the local FD, no?

-ERD50

 

[M Paquette]

I don't know if firefighters won't spray water until they've verified the power is off or not. And maybe the concerns over solar panels are over-blown. But it would be interesting to ask, and get input from the local FD, no?

Yah. It turns out the local VFD isn't totally dim. Why, they even realize that there's power on the lines inside the walls up to the building's cutoff switch.

They're also pretty good at handling other things that are on fire which can't be turned off. Chemical fires (including sodium and sulfur), fuel fires (tricky with water) and vehicle fires (fuel, electricity in new-fangled hybrids, and some Big Damn Batteries.)

Training. We has it.

Primary hazards in photovoltaic systems for first responders:

• Tripping/Slipping
• Structural collapse due to extra weight
• Flame spread
• Inhalation exposure
• Electrical shock
• Battery hazards.

Nothing new here, but the incident commander has to size-up the scene correctly. Oh, and tarping residential systems to de-energize them works well. (Yes, this is a minor item in training.)

 

[ERD50]

...

Primary hazards in photovoltaic systems for first responders:

• Tripping/Slipping
• Structural collapse due to extra weight
• Flame spread
• Inhalation exposure
• Electrical shock
• Battery hazards.

Nothing new here, but the incident commander has to size-up the scene correctly. Oh, and tarping residential systems to de-energize them works well. (Yes, this is a minor item in training.)

Right, it is an issue, not a 'non-issue' as was posted.

Maybe these aren't anything major relative to all the other hazards, but it couldn't hurt to ask.

These guys seem to be taking it pretty seriously:

Fire Fighter Safety and Response for Solar Power Systems


-ERD50

 

[M Paquette]

Totoro's fear that

Some fire departments also refuse to come near the roof of your house due to electrocution danger.

may be less than real in many communities.

I suppose it couldn't hurt to ask.

If your FD says they'd refuse to work the fire, you may want to ask what else they would avoid, and maybe take a look at their training budget. Might have debigulated that gummint pork a bit too much...

 

[davemartin88]

One design characteristic of the microinverters that are used to convert the DC to AC on our solar panel array is that they stop converting/outputting power from the panels if local grid power isn't available.

In the event of a house fire for that type of system, as soon as the main power from the grid was shut off as part of the response, the output from the panels would be disabled as well. Might not be perfect but seems helpful for that case.

 

[jimnjana]

Impressive numbers, but there's a big difference between Germany and the US,...

-ERD50

the biggest difference is price per kw. Germany is about .35 per kw usa is about .12 per kw on average. This is one area that I'm glad the Europeans are leading the way.

 

[Nodak]

I tried buying a solar system but the Martians weren't selling.


Sent from somewhere in the world with whatever device I can get my hands on.

I would be happy with just a full scale globe.

 

[eyeonFI]

Wow, as usual, an incredible wealth of info on this forum. Thanks for all the additional things to think about...I'm keeping a list of questions...I'll post some answers when I have them (sounds like the program got a lot of interest so there is a backlog and may be a couple weeks til they get around to me).

 

[ls99]

With the electric grid, perhaps the big "wheels" like the generating stations at Hoover Dam or Niagara Falls set the pace because they are so big, and other smaller generators have to follow suits.



Synchronization in a Decentralized Power Grid | SciTech Daily

From my days of working at a nuke power generating station, The nuke plants were used as reference. Can't recall the full story, but IIRC the reason was that that Reactors were difficult to modulate for variable loads. The preference was was to keep them at a fixed power level.

Some nukes would be able to elaborate on changing reactor output, ie how fast is and what delta achievable.

 

[NW-Bound]

the biggest difference is price per kw. Germany is about .35 per kw usa is about .12 per kw on average. This is one area that I'm glad the Europeans are leading the way.

It is not common for Europeans to have A/C in the homes. I would not be able to afford A/C if I have to pay $0.35/KWh. In fact, the entire SW might be deserted.

 

[FIGuy]

Storage is happening, but it will lag a bit most likely. We don't need it in the USA for at least a decade. I believe ~30% of peak power coming from PV is the point where it becomes a real pain. It also depends on how interconnected the market is. A very big smart grid will do a lot better than small dumb ones. It only takes a couple hours storage to really help as well as it's the ramp rate around 5pm when the sun goes down and everyone goes home and turns up the AC that is the big issue. Plug-in cars may make this worse soon too.

I don't know if residential PV will last in its current form. Maybe BIPV will get cheap enough eventually. Commercial and Utility make sense without subsidies in many markets in the USA today. Thousands of big box stores currently get almost all their energy from PV on the roof, but they don't all actively tell their customers as it's seen as a marketing risk. What does that say about America?

PV is the future. 100 years from now it will dominate power generation. I expect it to surpass wind in a few years. Centralized power stations running through a big dumb grid have a limited life IMO.

 

[dallas27]

Just had a quote done, about 8.5k. Did the math, i feel way better putting that cash in the market, letting it grow to pay my electricity forever.


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[Totoro]

It is not common for Europeans to have A/C in the homes.

Just to reinforce that one. Most hotels do have them, but I personally know no-one who has A/C in their home.

In warmer countries it is more prevalent though (Italy, Spain).

Other places just open their window when it is too hot

 

[samclem]

Just had a quote done, about 8.5k. Did the math, i feel way better putting that cash in the market, letting it grow to pay my electricity forever.


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$8500 x 6% returns = $510/yr = $43/mo.
Explanations:
You don't live near Dallas or anywhere else that is that hot.
"Pay my electricity" = "Pay for some of my electricity"
You've got a way to reliably generate more than 6% real return "forever"

 

[Totoro]

$8500 x 6% returns = $510/yr = $43/mo.
Explanations:
You don't live near Dallas or anywhere else that is that hot.
"Pay my electricity" = "Pay for some of my electricity"
You've got a way to reliably generate more than 6% real return "forever"

• Expect energy prices to drop >3% in the coming year(s)
• Expect solar panel prices to drop >3% in the coming year(s)
• Don't trust the quoted numbers

Just a few examples

 

[dallas27]

$8500 x 6% returns = $510/yr = $43/mo.
Explanations:
You don't live near Dallas or anywhere else that is that hot.
"Pay my electricity" = "Pay for some of my electricity"
You've got a way to reliably generate more than 6% real return "forever"

Not really, i learned they slowly wear out and drop output over time. Also, if i need to remove them for roof maintenance, I'm looking at a 3000 dollar hit just to move them out of the way. And the 6% doesn't compound. When i dot the math, long term i make more and have lower risk paying for the grid.

My roof is 15 years old, btw.


Sent from my iPhone using Early Retirement Forum

 

[AllDone]

Yes, and there is a shut off for gas & electric. The problem, as I understand it, is there is no way to get to the panels to shut them off.

I don't know if firefighters won't spray water until they've verified the power is off or not. And maybe the concerns over solar panels are over-blown. But it would be interesting to ask, and get input from the local FD, no?

-ERD50

Weirdly, the local FD signed off on our solar project. There is a big, red sign on our breaker box with "Warning" and directions for manually shutting off the system. In the advent of a grid power failure, the PV system shuts down. The HOA, the county, the power company, and the FD all had to agree to the system before it could be installed and the latter three had to sign off on the installation before it could operate. I suspect they may have consulted with engineers about just the sort of problem you envision.

Re: Solar City
My parents used SC for their house in Tucson. The company is so busy that they had quite a wait time.

 

[M Paquette]

The FD is likely checking the FD Roof Access Requirements. This covers things like weight load for the type of roof (e.g. 5 lb/sq ft, max 40 lbs at any support point), max height of panels above roof (18"), min 3' clearance from roof ridge for FD smoke ventilation operations, roof slope and access pathways (2:12 or greater slope requires 3 ft access pathways, some other req. based on roof geometry). They'll also check of there is a battery backup, disconnects, and hoe easily the panels can be tarped.

Building permits and inspections... Fun for everyone! (or not)

 

[ERD50]

Weirdly, the local FD signed off on our solar project. There is a big, red sign on our breaker box with "Warning" and directions for manually shutting off the system. In the advent of a grid power failure, the PV system shuts down. The HOA, the county, the power company, and the FD all had to agree to the system before it could be installed and the latter three had to sign off on the installation before it could operate. I suspect they may have consulted with engineers about just the sort of problem you envision.

Re: Solar City
My parents used SC for their house in Tucson. The company is so busy that they had quite a wait time.

It's good that they were involved.

I suspect that one of the things they were checking was that the system would shut down or isolate itself, and not back-feed the grid in a power outage and kill a lineman making repairs. That's pretty much the default for a grid-tie system, but I suppose they need to check that you didn't also have some battery backup that could create that kind of hazard (that would require a transfer switch).

RE: In the advent of a grid power failure, the PV system shuts down.

Well, yes and no... that's the potential problem.

Yes, the inverters stop delivering power into the grid and into your home wiring if the grid is down. But unless you have micro-inverters attached to each panel, the panels are still putting out DC power, and the DC lines running to the inverters are 'live', and still represent some hazard. With micro-inverters at each panel, the power would stop at that point. Since they need to be weather-tight, I would think the risk to a fire hose would be pretty small with local micro-inverters, the 'live' area would be pretty well contained.

-ERD50