California Long-Term

[David.]

The WSJ ran an op-ed this week (April 20, 2012) from Joel Kotkin expressing a negative view on California (high taxes, state budget disaster, bad policy, etc).

If you have considered these sorts issues as part of your long-term retirement planning (whether to live in California in retirement), I would love to hear your thoughts on this issue.

 

[Ed_The_Gypsy]

I read "California Long-term" and thought the subject would be a life-sentence in Alcatraz.

I have a good Canadian friend who strongly desires to retire in San Diego. It certainly has its attractions, but I am trying to advise him to visit only, but do not buy property or become a resident there. (His options are limited anyway as even a Canadian cannot arrange to stay full-time in the US.) A good option is to have a boat, registered elsewhere, in a moorage in SD. You are then invisible.

 

[pb4uski]

I read the op-ed this morning and the author makes some very sensible arguments. The key question in my mind is the effect that California's ultimate downfall (I'm thinking Greece, but worse) will have on the US as a whole.

 

[Steel Rain]

I read the op-ed this morning and the author makes some very sensible arguments. The key question in my mind is the effect that California's ultimate downfall (I'm thinking Greece, but worse) will have on the US as a whole.

As a resident of the other crash and burn state, Illinois, I believe the answer to this question depends on who is in the white house. Assuming that the vast majority of business that move out of the state (Here and CA) remain in the US, I think the hit to National GDP will be modest. If on the other hand, the feds rescue either CA or IL, the moral hazard will guarantee that not only do utterly failed policies continue, but more borderline states will follow the same route.

Steel Rain

 

[MichaelB]

The WSJ ran an op-ed this week (April 20, 2012) from Joel Kotkin expressing a negative view on California (high taxes, state budget disaster, bad policy, etc).

If you have considered these sorts issues as part of your long-term retirement planning (whether to live in California in retirement), I would love to hear your thoughts on this issue.

No, we have not considered these issues as part of our long term retirement planning. Much more relevant to us are things we have more direct control over, such as our health and financial resources. We focus more on diet, rate of spending, access to health care.

State budget and political problems are interesting for us and our children but have much less impact on our lives than things we can control directly.

 

[Midpack]

I've read Joel Kotkin and Richard Florida's latest books, both interesting BTW, about regions of the future. The first time I visited San Diego I thought I might like to retire there. But cost of living due largely to real estate ended that thought for us, not worth it. I was driving down Rosecrans listening to the radio and the local newscaster reported that 85% of SD residents could not qualify for a home loan, this was before the real estate bubble burst. Not sustainable...

Add now the fiscal mess, high taxes, populist/proposition government, earthquakes, drought and I don't see how CA gets better any time soon. I hope I'm wrong. Too bad, CA weather is unbeatable and San Francisco/Napa is one of our favorite places to visit along with San Diego. The appeal of LA is mostly lost on us...YMMV

An aside, Charles Murray's latest book suggests that NYC (finance), DC (government), LA (communication/media) and SF (Silicon Valley/technology) dictate the direction of the US more than the rest of the country combined. Maybe?

 

[urn2bfree]

Articles in WSJ that skewer "excessive" environmental regulations in California make me think about our visits to Yosemite and even more Sequoia National Park. Standing in a field of giant stumps that could have been the fate of the entire population of these magnificent trees lets one see what might happen if there is no one to regulate industry's voracious appetite for resources. And no, those who can make money now do not always work to keep it all going for the long run. If not for what were decried as "excessive" regulations at the time they were enacted, we would be waiting another couple thousand years to see a Giant Redwood or massive Sequoia. Having more money in retirement is important, but I would like to be able to spend that money enjoying our natural resources and not driving past a field of former wonders.

 

[Coolius]

I have lived in Northern California for over 27 years. Lately, the dismal economic outlook, high taxes, high utilities, high crime, and incompetent state government have persuaded us to look elsewhere.

Suspect we will be out of CA by end of 2013.

 

[jerome len]

California could be another Country. If you think you might want to retire there, rent for a few months 1st. Long time home owners are protected somewhat on property taxes, Tech companies need the tech educated work force, residents get hooked on the weather but newcomers pay higher property taxes, food costs, and have a lower standard of living then living in most other States. State employees have a high income and many, an even higher retirement income promised years ago but driving the State broke. Would I live in California, maybe, if I can drive my retirement income 30% more than I would need in most other States. OH, yes, traffic! It's really bad most of the day in major metro areas.

 

[Brat]

The same song was sung about NYC some years back. It takes leadership, resolve and a government structure that enables decision makers to act to address serious issues. The initiative process undermines difficult decisions.

 

[Accidental Retiree]

California Resident, Planning to Stay Put

A native South Texan, I (with my husband) have owned a home in the SF Bay Area for 30 years this summer. We owned in north San Diego County for 3 years before that. I lived in Orange County for 11 years before THAT (and went to the same high school as ItDontMeanAThing, 2 years behind him!)

I suppose the Texan never really filters out, evidenced by the way I drop my y'alls now and then, but really, I don't feel an affinity with the state of my birth, although I have considered relocating to Austin because I have lots of family still there. It's too dang hot and dry for my taste, and I don't like snakes or scorpions or skeeters, and I don't want to live inside the house with the windows all closed for months out of the year.

I also don't like the 35 different shades of beige down there.

Over the past few years we have considered relocating to Oregon or Washington, since I have friends (and until recently, my mom) up there. It's too soggy much of the year, though, and I have learned over the past few years that the gloomy parts of the year make me cry.

Weather aside, we also look at expenses. We run our A/C maybe 10 days a year here, if I have been working in our back garden and get too hot. We spend a LOT of our time outdoors -- in fact, I am at a bistro table outside now on the patio, looking at all the flowers in bloom, listening to the fountain, stuff like that. Can't do that as much in other places, bug and moisture free (whether rain or humidity).

We have also looked at property taxes. No state income tax in WA, but property taxes are high. No sales tax in OR, but they'd tax my small CA pension, all the while CA would still do the same. My medical costs in OR would be cheaper, as far as premiums, but the prescription anti-depressants would run me broke, as would the travel to escape to sunnier climes, like Maui.

Things have changed a LOT here in the past 30 years, and many changes we do not like. We are considering moving down to the Central Coast, nearer the water and the wineries, and we think that just might work, even though the airport is 200 miles or so away.

Ultimately, whatever California's politics, other states are too hot, others are too cold, and this one seems just about right

For as long as it lasts.

Sincerely,
Goldilocks

 

[haha]

A native South Texan, I (with my husband) have owned a home in the SF Bay Area for 30 years this summer. We owned in north San Diego County for 3 years before that. I lived in Orange County for 11 years before THAT (and went to the same high school as ItDontMeanAThing, 2 years behind him!)

I suppose the Texan never really filters out, evidenced by the way I drop my y'alls now and then, but really, I don't feel an affinity with the state of my birth, although I have considered relocating to Austin because I have lots of family still there. It's too dang hot and dry for my taste, and I don't like snakes or scorpions or skeeters, and I don't want to live inside the house with the windows all closed for months out of the year.

I also don't like the 35 different shades of beige down there.

Over the past few years we have considered relocating to Oregon or Washington, since I have friends (and until recently, my mom) up there. It's too soggy much of the year, though, and I have learned over the past few years that the gloomy parts of the year make me cry.

Weather aside, we also look at expenses. We run our A/C maybe 10 days a year here, if I have been working in our back garden and get too hot. We spend a LOT of our time outdoors -- in fact, I am at a bistro table outside now on the patio, looking at all the flowers in bloom, listening to the fountain, stuff like that. Can't do that as much in other places, bug and moisture free (whether rain or humidity).

We have also looked at property taxes. No state income tax in WA, but property taxes are high. No sales tax in OR, but they'd tax my small CA pension, all the while CA would still do the same. My medical costs in OR would be cheaper, as far as premiums, but the prescription anti-depressants would run me broke, as would the travel to escape to sunnier climes, like Maui.

Things have changed a LOT here in the past 30 years, and many changes we do not like. We are considering moving down to the Central Coast, nearer the water and the wineries, and we think that just might work, even though the airport is 200 miles or so away.

Ultimately, whatever California's politics, other states are too hot, others are too cold, and this one seems just about right

For as long as it lasts.

Sincerely,
Goldilocks

California is wonderful, as long as you are wealthy enough to stay away from many of the residents. It has become a beastly place to be down in the mosh pit.

Ha

 

[antmary]

I was born and raised here; I live in an idyllic community in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada mountains. It is blissful here (culturally included), and we were lucky to buy real estate in the 70's. There is still a flavor of the old west. But, I do stay away from some of the big cities, especially LA, Stockton, etc. It is distressing to see the deterioration that has taken place during the last 40 years. Northern California is an entirely different story, and I consider myself to be a native in fact and spirit.

I do manage to attune myself to the incredible beauty of the desert, redwoods, ancient valley oaks, the mountains, rivers, the Pacific ocean, and our own little acreage. I have old friends and family here...if I lived elsewhere loneliness would be my new companion.

 

[packrat44]

I read "California Long-term" and thought the subject would be a life-sentence in Alcatraz. .

Is there much of a difference?

 

[Accidental Retiree]

We are not wealthy, so the only way we can stay away from the residents is to hideout in the backyard on the weekends and venture out on errands during the work week. Hence our desire to move to the Central Coast where it is a bit more open.

 

[M Paquette]

I'm always amused at the attitude folks from other states take towards Illinois, California, and a few other places while cheerfully ignoring the financial situation of the USA. If California looks so problematic, please be so kind as to throw it out of the Union. Please?

I've run the numbers. Freed of unfounded federal mandates and the net outflow of taxes from California to the interior, California could balance its budget, and would run a budget surplus in the next few years. Unless it decides to gun up to the same degree as the US government defense budget, of course. With the state Guard, it maintains a military budget more like a typical country its size.

Hail Jeffersonia!

 

[samclem]

I grew up in the San Gabriel Valley and it was a really good place to live in the 1960s and 1970s. I have returned to visit my sister a few times--I don't miss what's left of the place at all. The weather is consistently gorgeous, but the congestion, cost of living, the crazy governmental policies, and the poor economic prognosis makes me glad to be living elsewhere.

 

[Brat]

Hail Jeffersonia!

Odds are that on this forum only me & thee know what you are talking about.

 

[Brat]

Over the past few years we have considered relocating to Oregon or Washington, since I have friends (and until recently, my mom) up there. It's too soggy much of the year, though, and I have learned over the past few years that the gloomy parts of the year make me cry.

....
We have also looked at property taxes. No state income tax in WA, but property taxes are high. No sales tax in OR, but they'd tax my small CA pension, all the while CA would still do the same. My medical costs in OR would be cheaper, as far as premiums, but the prescription anti-depressants would run me broke, as would the travel to escape to sunnier climes, like Maui.

....
Sincerely,
Goldilocks

Not all of Oregon (and Washington for that matter) is wet, although many of us don't mention that detail. Just look at the weather on the east side of the Cascade Mountains where you will find a semi-arid climate on a high plateau. Bend and Sunriver are popular, housing prices are down due to the housing implosion. They have very good medical care. The only minus, IMHO, is cold winters. If that is a concern be a snow bird and visit Tuscon or HI in the winter.

 

[mb]

The article makes some valid points but I've lived in CA for most of the last 33 years and I have noticed that about every five years someone writes CA's obituary.

Like MichaelB I consider my lifestyle to be the determining factor in where I decide to live. There's no where else in the country that I can bicycle on a sunny day in January in shorts and a t-shirt and do a long, hard run in August without risking my health due to the heat and humidity and schedule a barbeque for the 4th of July and be 100% sure that it is not going to rain.

I do admit that on many issues I'm sympathetic with the "Green Cadre" and that I am fortunate enough to be able to enjoy the CA lifestyle without significant financial hardships. I like all the ethnic groups and especially the food. I like the wacky politics in places like Berkeley and Santa Cruz. I like living in the middle of the Silicon Valley tech community. I don't have a mortgage. I live in a modest but comfortable house in a nice, safe, quiet neighborhood. Sure I could sell my 1700 sq ft Silicon Valley house and buy a 5000 sq ft house on a couple of acres in many other states and have money left over but what good is that if I'm "trapped inside" for 6 months a year and spend half of my time cleaning the house and maintaining the yard and have to run the air conditioner all summer and the furnace all winter? I don't have to get on the freeway to get to work. I dislike commuter/car culture and my bicycle is my preferred mode of transportation. It is easy to live that lifestyle year round where I currently live. There are few things that I enjoy more than riding my bike through the redwood forests of the Santa Cruz mountains. I don't want them to be replaced by subdivisions.

In addition to CA I've lived on the East Coast and in the Rocky Mountain region. They are very nice communities and have many positive qualities but I plan to stay in CA for the duration. If you've never lived here but read all of the articles on the demise of CA that may be hard to understand.

 

[Accidental Retiree]

Not all of Oregon (and Washington for that matter) is wet, although many of us don't mention that detail. Just look at the weather on the east side of the Cascade Mountains where you will find a semi-arid climate on a high plateau. Bend and Sunriver are popular, housing prices are down due to the housing implosion. They have very good medical care. The only minus, IMHO, is cold winters. If that is a concern be a snow bird and visit Tuscon or HI in the winter.

We also considered the eastern parts of both states, but as you said, it gets colder than we would like and probably hotter than we would like. I am not much for desert- like environments.

I also hate to be too far from the coast. Friday we took a day-cation to Half Moon Bay, ate fish tacos and chowder, walked down on the beach, and enjoyed the drive both ways. I cannot see giving that up.

As far as being a snowbird .... Well, I guess I would rather not live where I have to plan to leave every year, as that would also be hard on the budget.

Every place has its advantages and drawbacks, that's for sure. But in weighing all our choices these past 3 years, now that we have a choice not dictated by work, we still choose California. We would just like to find a place a little more laid-back than the Bay Area!

 

[MichaelB]

I'm always amused at the attitude folks from other states take towards Illinois, California, and a few other places while cheerfully ignoring the financial situation of the USA. If California looks so problematic, please be so kind as to throw it out of the Union. Please?

I've run the numbers. Freed of unfounded federal mandates and the net outflow of taxes from California to the interior, California could balance its budget, and would run a budget surplus in the next few years. Unless it decides to gun up to the same degree as the US government defense budget, of course. With the state Guard, it maintains a military budget more like a typical country its size.

Hail Jeffersonia!

Some federal mandates, if tossed aside, might be replaced by state programs just as costly, so free from federal mandates does not automatically lead to improved financial conditions. I'm just nitpicking, though. The states you mention are quite productive, have large, diverse & active economies, and have enough wealth and generate enough income to pay their obligations. The question is not "can they?" but "are they willing?".

 

[Lsbcal]

I've lived in Northern California all my life. Beautiful state. In the state park behind us the creatures have no plans to move. We're staying too.

A few problems, what do you expect with a 37 million human population?

P.S. Some of the comments here make me think some people are "regionally challenged". I like to think we are all Americans first.

 

[eridanus]

Some federal mandates, if tossed aside, might be replaced by state programs just as costly, so free from federal mandates does not automatically lead to improved financial conditions. I'm just nitpicking, though. The states you mention are quite productive, have large, diverse & active economies, and have enough wealth and generate enough income to pay their obligations. The question is not "can they?" but "are they willing?".

M Paq is probably talking about the state moocher list, where California (and NY) send far more to the feds than they receive. Even if the federal mandates were voided, California would have the money to pay for the equivalent state programs. Unlike, say, New Mexico or many of the Southern States.

Long-term, Texas has a huge problem as well. Its deficit was nearly as large as California's (as a % of GDP) and it has a serious water problem. It also ignores education, ranking dead last in high school graduates. For the college bound, it ranks in the bottom 5 for both verbal and math SAT scores. Etc., etc.

 

[antmary]

The article makes some valid points but I've lived in CA for most of the last 33 years and I have noticed that about every five years someone writes CA's obituary.

Like MichaelB I consider my lifestyle to be the determining factor in where I decide to live. There's no where else in the country that I can bicycle on a sunny day in January in shorts and a t-shirt and do a long, hard run in August without risking my health due to the heat and humidity and schedule a barbeque for the 4th of July and be 100% sure that it is not going to rain.

I do admit that on many issues I'm sympathetic with the "Green Cadre" and that I am fortunate enough to be able to enjoy the CA lifestyle without significant financial hardships. I like all the ethnic groups and especially the food. I like the wacky politics in places like Berkeley and Santa Cruz. I like living in the middle of the Silicon Valley tech community. I don't have a mortgage. I live in a modest but comfortable house in a nice, safe, quiet neighborhood. Sure I could sell my 1700 sq ft Silicon Valley house and buy a 5000 sq ft house on a couple of acres in many other states and have money left over but what good is that if I'm "trapped inside" for 6 months a year and spend half of my time cleaning the house and maintaining the yard and have to run the air conditioner all summer and the furnace all winter? I don't have to get on the freeway to get to work. I dislike commuter/car culture and my bicycle is my preferred mode of transportation. It is easy to live that lifestyle year round where I currently live. There are few things that I enjoy more than riding my bike through the redwood forests of the Santa Cruz mountains. I don't want them to be replaced by subdivisions.

In addition to CA I've lived on the East Coast and in the Rocky Mountain region. They are very nice communities and have many positive qualities but I plan to stay in CA for the duration. If you've never lived here but read all of the articles on the demise of CA that may be hard to understand.

+1!