Coronavirus - Financial, Health and Other impacts II

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the next challenge to look forward to navigating once things stabilize...

Just a hunch, but I think the 20's are in some higher than usual inflation (in the 4-5% average range), as the economy recovers from this.
 
My response to the conrona virus so far: A few weeks ago changed 401K contribution from max down to 6% to get the company match. Will wait until things settle down before trying to max out for 2020. If this lasts into 2021 I will just stay at 6%.

Hmmm... I would advise doing the opposite.

2018-2020 would have been the years to minimize investments (buying high)... now that the market is on the way down, one would benefit from increasing your contributions to maximize the buying low side of things. Right?
 
Hmmm... I would advise doing the opposite.

2018-2020 would have been the years to minimize investments (buying high)... now that the market is on the way down, one would benefit from increasing your contributions to maximize the buying low side of things. Right?

+1
 
Morning Thougts

I posted this on another thread but thought this thread more appropriate. DH mentioned this morning we should sell tIRA bonds when hits ~22,000 and buy VTSMX. Our portfolio untouched for a couple more years due to ACA and his consulting gig.


Also, anyone hear Jim Cramer this morning on CNBC? I typically don't like his style, but he made a lot of sense this morning, pushing hard for more test kits.
 
Too much news...

This morning 2008 was on my mind, I remember it all too well. You’ll hear a lot of things but was all about simple greed and failures. Greed by all those who bundled all those terrible mortgages and sold them as A+ mortgage backed securities. Failure by the rating agencies to identify the underlying mortgages were crap. Yes crap. Oh and all those poor souls who used easy money to buy too much house.

This time around it isn’t a man made disaster it is a disease. Scary for some, just “the old and stick people” for others but, it will impact us all. Sporting events without spectators, restaurants, cruise ships and airlines with patrons - yes it appears we all will be affected.

Some times turning off the news can be a good thing.
 
I will say, as someone who believes in AA and not trying to time the markets that, if you're able to sell equities at $29K and buy back in at $22K... that's essentially like a 25% gain relative to where you would have been if you stayed the course. Because the market will return to it's highs... usually sooner than most think in the depths of a trough.

The problem is, most people time this backwards, or get it completely wrong. That's why so many people say, just stay the course and don't attempt.

I moved 38% of my 401k to money market three weeks ago (I got lucky... I likely will never try to time like this again, the outbreak just seemed so inevitable, as well as the impact to the world economy)... I'm looking at $20K (DOW) as an entry point... but I was also thinking that wouldn't come till much later in the year. I don't think this will play out fast. We will see some minor ups and downs, but the recovery isn't going to be a fast one. So don't feel like you need to be in a rush to grab discounted stocks right now. I wouldn't be surprised to see the market 20-30% below where it is right now, on Dec 31st of this year...

but then again... that's just a guess. Anyone's is as good as mine.

I will say. I'm also quit certain we'll see DOW up to $30K by mid decade... but not before many believe it'll never get there again. When you start hearing that statement... that's when you know it's headed there soon ;)
 
Gee, the medical experts are telling us that almost all of us are not going to die a horrible death from this virus, and you boys are predicting revolution. Yes, the Russians picked a bad time to get into a pissing match with the Saudis, but they will be hurt the worst by it. Yes, we are likely to have some financial problems, probably a recession, nothing we haven't seen and survived before.
The reaction seems a bit extreme to me.

No.
The media and their hired experts are calling for the Zombie apocolypse. The experts I know IRL are telling me this is a SARS type event.
Most of us lived through '03 just fine. (Yes Yes Survivor bias, I know.)
 
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Hmmm... I would advise doing the opposite.

2018-2020 would have been the years to minimize investments (buying high)... now that the market is on the way down, one would benefit from increasing your contributions to maximize the buying low side of things. Right?

+2
 
The Chinese stock market is FAKE! How can the market basically be flat when everyone is home and production is idled?

Because everyone is not home and idled. Our logistics managers started hearing from Chinese suppliers almost 2 weeks ago, and shipments are coming in. We also have received a notice to INCREASE one of our products that ships to a Chinese Assy plant because they have ramped up production.

I don't believe everything in the media, but trust data.
 
Cheap oil does make it nice for shipping goods across the ocean. If China has managed to stop the spread of the virus and restarts production...I do not think the appetite for cheap goods in the USA has waned.
 
I wonder what Michael Burry is doing with his investments. In addition to being a savvy financial analyst, he is also a physician (although he may have let his license to practice lapse).

There are existing programs that could be adjusted to address the human economic impact of coronavirus quarantine or illness - perhaps amend unemployment insurance and pick up the tab at the Federal level. IMHO that would be better than just throwing money out the door without regard to need.
 
Because everyone is not home and idled. Our logistics managers started hearing from Chinese suppliers almost 2 weeks ago, and shipments are coming in. We also have received a notice to INCREASE one of our products that ships to a Chinese Assy plant because they have ramped up production.

I don't believe everything in the media, but trust data.


So who vouches for what they're calling "data"?
 
So who vouches for what they're calling "data"?

I'm not sure about who the "they're calling data" is in your quote, I am vouching for what I call data - receipts of components from China plants increasing, orders for assemblies to China assembly plant increasing.
 
Because everyone is not home and idled. Our logistics managers started hearing from Chinese suppliers almost 2 weeks ago, and shipments are coming in. We also have received a notice to INCREASE one of our products that ships to a Chinese Assy plant because they have ramped up production.

I don't believe everything in the media, but trust data.

Actually there is data on Chinese production. It's done by a non government party so it is more trustable. Lowest on record for February.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/02/chi...ruary-manufacturing-pmi-amid-coronavirus.html
 
I am vouching for what I call data - receipts of components from China plants increasing, orders for assemblies to China assembly plant increasing.

I swapped messages with a past coworker, now CFO of a major China operation. They are still in Seattle, no plans yet to return to China. When megacorp cranks up the factories in China, but keeps the brass out of country- that seems to be a bit cautious. If everything cranks up and runs fine, and the # of cases subsides, then it seems like an excellent stress test. If the contagion explodes, then we have indications that this may take a few more months to resolve.
 
I wonder what Michael Burry is doing with his investments. In addition to being a savvy financial analyst, he is also a physician (although he may have let his license to practice lapse).



There are existing programs that could be adjusted to address the human economic impact of coronavirus quarantine or illness - perhaps amend unemployment insurance and pick up the tab at the Federal level. IMHO that would be better than just throwing money out the door without regard to need.



I just finally watched The Big Short Movie and they claimed at the end that he was investing in water. Not sure how that worked out but now he seems to believe there is a bubble in passive investing.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/04/the...says-he-has-found-the-next-market-bubble.html
 
Investing in water isn't as crazy as it might seem. He lives in the Bay Area, water is an issue in CA. Actually, when my son graduated from Cal Maritime the commencement speaker said that today's tankers were more likely to transport freshwater than oil in their lifetime.
 
I don’t think it’s crazy at all. Didn’t mean to imply that. I just have no idea how he was investing or how it turned out. As a society we prize coffee from Starbucks and take water for granted.
 
I know this is just one opinion among many, but I'll toss it out there. It's from First Trust Economics Blog, by Brian Wesbury.


A Coronavirus Recession?

No one knows with any real certainty how much, or for how long, the Coronavirus will impact the US economy. What we do know is that it will have an impact. And, after data releases of recent weeks, we also know that the US economy was in very good shape before it hit.

Nonfarm payrolls grew by a very strong 273,000 in January and another 273,000 in February. The unemployment rate was 3.5% in February and initial claims for jobless benefits were 216,000 in the last week of February. Retail sales in January were up 4.4% versus a year ago. [etc., etc...]

Putting all of this data into their model, the Atlanta Fed projects real GDP is growing at a 3.1% annual rate in the first quarter. That's not a typo. However, March data, which isn't available yet will likely bring this number down.

The early economic headwinds from the Coronavirus are coming from slower production in China, which likely led to a big drop in inventories. We expect this to pull first quarter real GDP down to a 2.0% growth rate and we are now thinking growth will be zero in the second quarter. After that, given previous episodes of rapidly spreading viruses, inventory replenishment should boost growth to the 3.5 – 4.0% annual rate range in the second half of the year.

This may seem optimistic, but keep in mind what happened when the "Hong Kong flu" hit the US from September 1968 through March 1969, killing around 34,000 people in the US [blah blah....]

Before the Coronavirus hit, we thought the odds of a recession in the next twelve months were about 10%. Now we think they're around 20%. Higher, but not high. There is no precedent for the first social media panic regarding the flu. Either way, here's a simple rule of thumb: if the unemployment rate goes up 0.4 percentage points or more compared to where it was three months prior then the US is probably in a recession, otherwise it's probably not. The jobless rate was 3.5% in December, so unless it goes above 3.9% soon the economy is still growing.

The bottom line is that we've had severe flus before without a recession and when we did have a downturn, the economy bounced back very quickly. The stock market is pricing in a steep drop in profits, which is certainly possible. A strong recovery, which we expect, will reverse this as it has in the past.

https://www.ftportfolios.com/retail/blogs/economics/index.aspx
 
I’m agreeing with GenXguy. This is a slow progression and will take us out for at least a couple of quarters. Personally, I think this year is a wash. Hopefully we’ll have a recovery next year, or at least the start of one.

It will be interesting to see how this works out in Italy. They’re open again in a month. Let’s see if that actually happens.
 
New York fed estimate at 1.7%. We'll see what the actual Q1 number is later. You can find a fact to fit whatever scenario is in mind. The actual number will get real ugly and not fit rosy blogs.
 
I am still quite negative on the short term outlook of the market as I do believe we could have a similar problem to Italy here in the USA in a few weeks.

I cannot however find anything to short. The volatility is so high that put option prices are insane. It costs over 4x to buy a put on SPY for the same % strike price as it did a couple of weeks ago.

So...the only thing I can do is not do anything. Stay in cash where I have cash and just hunker down.
 
I am still quite negative on the short term outlook of the market as I do believe we could have a similar problem to Italy here in the USA in a few weeks.

I cannot however find anything to short. The volatility is so high that put option prices are insane. It costs over 4x to buy a put on SPY for the same % strike price as it did a couple of weeks ago.

So...the only thing I can do is not do anything. Stay in cash where I have cash and just hunker down.

I'm new to PUTs so watching the effect on my few PUTs has been interesting, but also nerve wracking for the one in DW's account as I know I'd hear about it had I lost money :eek: So I sold some, to only have 1 free Put at risk, and grab coffee money profit.

Strangely, I feel at ease in my own account, with my PUT purchase, which was not as good a deal.

I think I'm more comfortable with deep in the money LEAPs , but obviously the profit is not as large.

It certainly has provided entertainment while waiting for Covid-19 to come to our neighborhood.
 
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