Divorce?

[explanade]

Did you have these feelings about wanting to divorce before you had the children?

If you did, obviously it would have been best to act on those before having children.

Oh man, I'm thinking about the episode of Breaking Bad with that poor air traffic controller.

 

[haha]

I try to explain how I feel to her, I ask for counseling, I do everything I can to help her out and give her a break, but I get nothing in return.

Sure sounds like fun. Study divorce and support and child support in your jurisdiction, and other places where you could possibly go. Establish yourself in a jurisdiction that is less punitive on men than some others. There are none that are good, but some are less bad. Do not get divorced in New York or California or Wisconsin. I suppose that counseling often helps, but my first hand experience and that of my friends is that once you are falling, the real injury comes from trying to right yourself. Plan to hit the ground, because it is a real possibility. Take care of yourself. Courts and the machinery of "family law" will see to your wife and family. I think tmm99 mentioned that especially if your kids are female, it will be very very hard to maintain a relationship with them after divorce. Relations with one's children almost always go to hell when the marriage is suffering, divorce or no.

Read Philip Greenspun on divorce, maintenance and child support. He has an entire set of pages devoted to the laws of various states.

I would strongly try to avoid bringing things to a head. Once you know there is likely to be a showdown, pick the time and place and realize that no one but you gives a xxxx about how it works out for you.

Ha

 

[daylatedollarshort]

There is a lot of good advice in this thread. I would like to point out that the Prep videos cost $49 and a few hours of your time to watch. They may not help, but are unlikely to hurt, and if they help you, your wife, your kids, plus not to mention me and all the other airline passengers in the world, avoid the toll of divorce on your stress levels, attention span (I am also thinking of Breaking Bad here) and finances, why not give them a try? I would start with the least expensive, easiest possible potential solution first. And the Prep DVD cost is probably less than one session of marriage counseling.

People take courses to learn to drive cars and play tennis, why not take a course on how to have a happier, more conflict free marriage?

 

[Lakewood90712]

If you can't get your wife to agree to marriage counseling , then make the appointment , arrange for childcare during the appointment, and go alone if she refuses.

One thing stands out, your occupation is the same as your M.O.S. when your were on active duty, so it sounds like at your age, you haven't had much work experience outside of ATC. You might very well be suited and and enjoy some other occupation. Getting stuck in the " I am what I do " is very common at your age. Don't get stuck assuming this is the only thing., as so many millions of young people have over the ages. Don't sell yourself short , I would bet money you have abilities you haven't even considered.

As someone who could lose employment if your FAA medical gets yanked for a variety of reasons, you need a "Plan B" , even if things work out. What career paths does the FAA have for controllers who want to move out of the tower, or sector radar screen ?

 

[haha]

There is a lot of good advice in this thread. I would like to point out that the Prep videos cost $49 and a few hours of your time to watch. They may not help, but are unlikely to hurt, and if they help you, your wife, your kids, plus not to mention me and all the other airline passengers in the world, avoid the toll of divorce on your stress levels, attention span (I am also thinking of Breaking Bad here) and finances, why not give them a try? I would start with the least expensive, easiest possible potential solution first. And the Prep DVD cost is probably less than one session of marriage counseling.

People take courses to learn to drive cars and play tennis, why not take a course on how to have a happier, more conflict free marriage?

This seems a great, low risk, low cost way to begin. I am glad that it has helped you

Ha

 

[Walt34]

I've worked rotating shift work and did it for 18 years. Even I didn't fully understand how physically and mentally exhausting that is until I moved into a straight day work position. Six months later guys I worked with would say "Wow, you look a lot better!" So don't discount the effect that can and probably does have on everything else in your life.

An ex-BIL was an air traffic controller (retired now) and did find himself a position that did not require controlling aircraft. It was a supervisory position and it did take a while to get there. So there is hope for that too.

I agree on the counseling, but don't expect miracles. My ex did agree to counseling but she was also insistent on taking out a loan for a discretionary trip and that was not going to happen - ever - on my watch. Rock, meet Hard Place. My younger sister summed it up in one sentence: "Opposites attract but they can't live with each other".

Look around at the others who are divorced and happily remarried. I'm one of them. It is a hard thing to go through, no question. But in the long term as it was for me, it may be the better option. But do try to save the marriage first. It may be worth saving and both of you may come out better on the other side.

 

[athena53]

OP, I need to tell you a cautionary tale about burnout.

I used to work for a large, multinational organization and one of our executives was a photogenic, upwardly mobile guy in his 30s with prestigious academic credentials, a beautiful wife and a 2-year old daughter. The pace was brutal- obviously not shift work, but lots of travel across multiple time zones with breakfast meetings, lunch meetings, dinner meetings, drinks afterwards, then back to the hotel room to deal with piles of e-mail. The e-mail never stopped, of course- it was always working hours in SOME time zone.

After one too many conferences he came home and on a Sunday morning he beat his little girl to death because the voices in his head told him she was possessed by demons. He wasn’t a bad guy but his life was ruined. He got away with confinement in an institution and counseling and his wife even took him back (last I heard) but his little girl is gone for good.

That’s what burnout can do to you. Take care of yourself first. You have to.

 

[youbet]

Sleep is very elusive and even more so with the shift work.

Back in the day, MegaCorp sent me to a three day seminar which focused on the issues involved with 24 X 7 operations. MegaCorp was building a new, capital intensive plant and wanted to run it around the clock, seven days a week, something we had not done before.

The seminar covered all the usual facets: circadian rhythms, rotating or fixed shifts, how to attract and retain talent on night shifts, fair ways to chose who works when, etc., etc. There were folks from manufacturing, power plants, public safety and all the usual 24 X 7 suspects.

I recall we spent quite a bit of time with the issue of the impact of rotating shifts or steady night shifts on families and marriages. The instructor (a psych PhD now consulting) emphasized statistics showing that marriage issues were fairly common among people working the "off shifts."

I'd look into some specific help or counseling regarding the fact you are involved with shift work and the possible steps that can be taken to help the family cope with it.

 

[rodi]

I remember the exhaustion that came with small kids. I was working PT, but probably not producing super quality work due to sleep deprivation.

Around that time I heard an interview where the speaker stated that if marriages can survive until the youngest child enters kindergarten, it's got a significantly better chance of surviving long term... this is because of the stresses and sleep deprivation issues of young kids. Once they're all out of diapers, sleeping through the night, can verbally ask for what they want/need.... a lot (not all) of the stress is lessened.

I lived this and agree with the guy on the radio... It gets easier when you can get a decent amount of sleep and perhaps have a waking hour or two that aren't directly involved in house/kid chores.

But you're in the middle of it. It sounds like you need to have a frank talk with your wife about carving out an hour or two a week for down time... just you (and maybe napping kids). No trips to farmers markets during your down time. No chores. Just sleep or reading a book, or vegging in front of tv. We all need some down time... and with your job it sounds like you need it more than most as a way of decompressing from the stress.

I would try negotiating for this needed downtime before considering divorce. But that's me.

 

[Legally_dead]

Don't know what your religious beliefs are, but I've seen firsthand the positive affect that this program can have on wrecked marriages: http://marriagehelp.org

Check it out.

Avoid divorce at all cost. It will send ripples throughout the rest of your life, your kids' lives, and their kids' lives that no amount of money can change.


Sent from my iPhone using Early Retirement Forum

 

[AllDone]

Your wife may be suffering from sleep deprivation due to caring for the babies, but she also may have depression, possibly post-partum depression. She needs to be evaluated by a doctor and you should try to get the two of you into counseling. My DH got counseling by himself, when his first wife refused to go and he found it helpful even though she ultimately decided that she wanted a divorce.

 

[FUEGO]

Tough spot, man. I feel for you!

We had 2 kids 17 months apart and so we know what it was like to have 2 kids under 2 for a while. Not fun at all! And the oldest loved to be awake and didn't require more than 4-5 hours of sleep (still doesn't at age 10!). But once the kids are a little older in a year or two, it seems to get radically easier in terms of parental stress. A 3 year old is much more autonomous than a 12 month old, for example. And it's more rewarding, too, because they can do so much more cool stuff at age 3 than at 12 months (at least from my guy's perspective).

So maybe give it another year or two before going nuclear.

In the mean time, just try to cope. Your wife does seem unreasonable from my POV, but I've only heard your side of the story. I found myself as the stay at home parent when I got let go from my job 2 years ago, with a 16 month old and a 7 and 8 year old. It really wasn't that bad honestly, but YMMV. I tried to do whatever I could so that my wife came home from work, sat down to a warm dinner in a (relatively) clean house, and didn't have to bother with anything other than relaxing and decompressing from work and the commute. I thought it was a lot less work that actually dealing with work 40 hours per week.

Social interaction was pretty easy, so I had enough outside adult interaction during the week (and could dial it up or down to suit my varying level of intro/extroversion).

I'd echo what others suggested in getting some outside help (babysitter, childcare swapping with friends, grandparents to babysit, etc) so you can have a nice quiet evening occasionally or a nice weekend without kid stress. Both sets of our family live in town and literally beg us to take our kids off our hands, so we have that safety release valve in our household (though DW is more reluctant to let the kids spend a weekend away since she didn't get to see them as much when she was still commuting to work 5x/wk). Give yourself permission to do nothing, netflix and chill, go out for a movie, or whatever occasionally.

I don't have any advice on the "must be busy" attitude of your wife (if I'm interpreting that correctly). Maybe if you could somehow communicate that her drive to make your life busy too was literally tearing your marriage apart. If you're doing things right, you should be able to allocate out your waking hours to me time, couple time, family time, chores, etc. Maybe your wife doesn't view it in such analytical or simplistic terms, but that's pretty much how you'll need to do it if you're going to survive the next couple years.

Best of luck ATC!

Edited to add: PS - farmer's markets are some bullshit. Just get good produce at your regular grocery store and squeeze in an extra hour or two of quality nap time by avoiding the farmer's mkt trip. Yeah, your wife can't post awesome pics to Pinterest or whatever to make the SAHM club jealous of how perfect her life is, but let's get real. It's just overpriced fruits and vegetables. That are tearing your marriage apart.

 

[gindie]

Don't know what your religious beliefs are, but I've seen firsthand the positive affect that this program can have on wrecked marriages: re|engage Marriage Enrichment Program

If you think you guys could get away for a weekend, another great program is called Weekend to Remember®

My wife and I usually go to one of these each year. It is religious-based, but there's also a lot of fun as well. There are sessions all over the country

 

[chris2008]

+1 agree with ivinsfan.

Get counseling on burn out + marriage asap.
Nothing to be ashamed for. Clever people look for counselling.

 

[chris2008]

+1 agree with ivinsfan.

Get counseling on burn out + marriage asap.
Nothing to be ashamed for. Clever people use counseling in time.

 

[ATC Guy]

You are responsible for the safety and well being of many people a day, yet are highly stressed, sleep deprived and mild to moderately depressed.

This literally describes the majority of individuals in air traffic control. We are a weird group of people.

Thank you to everyone for your advice. Writing this and reading your advice and replies has been, in a way, therapeutic. I think it boils down us being in a very stressful time in our lives with a 7 week old and 20 month old, and no family in town. Add in the shift work and sleep deprivation, who wouldn't have moments of depression or thoughts of wanting to escape?

I want to fight for this marriage. I want my kids to have a normal life. I think me daydreaming about being alone stems from quite literally NEVER having a second alone, even in the bathroom. I know this is temporary and as crazy as it sounds I'm sure I'll miss these days with my kids being this little.

That is not to say my wife and I aren't still going through some things, but I am going to try and make even more of an effort to make her a priority. And we will see how things turn out in a few more years once the kids are a bit older; maybe school-age.

 

[prose3589]

So I am a divorce lawyer by trade. Strangely IMHO my own mother sums up marriage and divorce the best. "Marriage may not work, but divorce doesn't either". I suggest you put everything you have into saving your marriage. If you don't the rest will wither too.

Good luck to you both.


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[ivinsfan]

You have a 7 week old baby, wow your wife has barely recovered from childbirth. I think you both sound overwhelmed at this point.

Please try to get some outside help in as soon as possible, does your area have a county visiting nurse program, this might help you DW with any postpartum issues she might be having.

 

[swakyaby]

Your wife sounds depressed and socially isolated from adult company. She has been sending clear signals that she wants more time with you, not less. With your long hours, levels of stress, and desire for quiet time to yourself, it seems like an impossible situation.

Clearly, a marriage counselor could help both of you see from each other's eyes instead of only your own. But often one spouse will refuse, not wanting to hear what the counselor has to say or their recommendations, or thinking, "it's not me, it's him! He has to do all the changing!" A counselor could help her see that you need regular relaxation time without guilt from her. And help you to see that she needs a more emotionally supportive husband, and help find ways that you can meaningfully convey to her that you still love her. While going for counseling together is best, consider going by yourself.

I understand about the high stress job and the toll it takes. When something particularly awful occurs at work or a near-miss, the stress comes home with you. Even when you've slept, you don't feel rejuvenated. It's hard to show your spouse love and appreciation when you're in a crisis at work. I don't have any good suggestions if this is the case for you, just empathy.

 

[mystang52]

I humbly make these 2 immediate and practical suggestions:

Next time you come home from work, bring flowers with you.
Hire a babysitter and go out, even if it's just a quick dinner.

 

[ivinsfan]

I humbly make these 2 immediate and practical suggestions:

Next time you come home from work, bring flowers with you.
Hire a babysitter and go out, even if it's just a quick dinner.

+1 and with a 7 week old baby in the house you could just bring home the flowers and the ready to eat hot meal....

 

[Lakewood90712]

Paternity leave, even if un-paid .

Maybe I missed the age in your other posts. had no idea the youngest was only 7 weeks old.

 

[nash031]

+1 and with a 7 week old baby in the house you could just bring home the flowers and the ready to eat hot meal....

Yeah this would probably be an awesome first step. Just make sure to tell her you've got dinner covered before she cooks something else.

 

[splitwdw]

Looking for advice. I daydream about divorce. Literally. My wife and I are going through a bit of a rough patch but it is more than that. I think I genuinely enjoy being alone. I am very introverted by nature, she is not. We have been together since age 16 (28 now, married since 22). We have never really experienced life without each other and I'm starting to think that was a big mistake....

Counseling for sure and as others have pointed out it sounds like you are both tired and stressed out.
BUT you are talking about two people that have been together since 16 years old. My husband has a friend that he and his first wife got married when she was 16 and he was 18. When she was 18 they had their first child. They kept having problems for the next 15 years but stayed together for their daughter. They weren't "grown ups" when they met and they grew apart as they grew up. They went for counseling and it helped solve some of the issues they were having but found it was best for them to split up.

Little hesitant to post the above because OP has divorce on his mind. You should go for counseling first and if wife won't go then go yourself.

 

[sirion]

Good luck to you, OP. Probably worth doubling up on the birth control until things get sorted out.