Electric Vehicles - Models Discussion

[Midpack]

Any idea when a v11.1 2024.8.7 car will get updated to the trial? I’m leaving on a 2000 mile road trip this weekend, and I really hoped to let V12 do the driving. If it doesn’t start this week, I’d rather wait until mid May to start the trial, but I doubt I will get any say on when it starts.

When each of us gets V12 is model, variant, year, hardware and country dependent - we can’t answer without knowing the details. See link below for example.

V11 is perfectly serviceable for a road trip. V12 is reportedly better, and it’s revolutionary software architecture, but how it actually behaves for the driver isn’t nearly as notable as the software change. At least not yet, after more learning.

And no, Tesla will begin your trial with your next update, not up to you.

https://teslascope.com/software

 

[Fermion]

If the software notices a kid bouncing a ball 10 feet from the edge of the road, is it smart enough to slow below the speed limit in case the ball gets away and the kid darts into the street?

 

[joesxm3]

On my road people walk 3 abreast blocking the car lane. One day with 11.4 I let the Tesla decide what to do. It headed towards the walkers, then slowed and stopped.

I hit the accelerator to get it to move after they moved to the side of the road. The Tesla took a 90 degree left turn into a dirt farm field path. I guess I got scared by the people.

I have seen 11.4 slow down and move a little to the left to avoid a walker or a bike.

 

[Fermion]

Overall I think self driving will save lives but there will be the edge cases where a person could make a better decision (such as recognizing that a person or object is likely to do an unexpected behavior). Statistically though, the self driving vehicle will react better to most situations but the media will pick up on the edge case failures for sure.

 

[joesxm3]

FSD 11.4 saved me at least 3 times during my 100 mile a day two month drives.

In one town there are a lot of pot holes on main street and while I was watching for them a car five or six ahead came to a full stop to make a left turn. FSD stopped before I even knew what was happening. Best case with me in charge would have been slamming on the brakes.

 

[Midpack]

Overall I think self driving will save lives but there will be the edge cases where a person could make a better decision (such as recognizing that a person or object is likely to do an unexpected behavior). Statistically though, the self driving vehicle will react better to most situations but the media will pick up on the edge case failures for sure.

+1. FSD will never be perfect, but if it reduces accidents fatal or otherwise by 90% from our history with human drivers, would we all choose FSD? That was the original goal. I would opt for a 90% reduction, but many media and general public have/will focus on the 10% cases for now. We're still a long way from that kind of FSD, but we get closer every year. 90% is to illustrate, we don't know what the actual number is/may be.

Until recently, NHTSA and other sources reported that 93-94% of fatal accidents were primarily due to human error. The NTSB has strongly disputed that %, without providing any alternative. There are plenty of other studies that suggest human drivers are at fault more often than any other single cause. However, in many cases, there are multiple causes in which human error only played some role.

The irony is when/if all vehicles are FSD, there won't be any unpredictable behavior between vehicles and there will be fewer accidents than while FSD and human drivers share the road. There's plenty of evidence that FSD cars will one day "talk" to each other in real time, so there won't be any confusion between cars. Yes, this is likely all decades away...

 

[audreyh1]

If the software notices a kid bouncing a ball 10 feet from the edge of the road, is it smart enough to slow below the speed limit in case the ball gets away and the kid darts into the street?

Even without FSD just running the old Autosteer my car slows down quite a bit for people including cyclists in the shoulder. 10 ft away from the road edge - maybe not.

However, I pay attention always ready to take control. And that’s all I really have to do. I was amazed my last 3 leg drive that I the only time I intervened not counting end point parking lots was when someone in the center turn lane started to pull in front of me. Automatic reaction on my part. The person realized and pulled back. Car would probably have handled it fine.

 

[Midpack]

Just got updated from 2024.3.6 with FSD 12.3.2.1 to 2024.3.10 with FSD 12.3.3. From what I've seen on YouTube the latter is supposed to be noticeably better than its predecessor. We'll see...

 

[audreyh1]

Just got updated from 2024.3.6 with FSD 12.3.2.1 to 2024.3.10 with FSD 12.3.3. From what I've seen on YouTube the latter is supposed to be noticeably better than its predecessor. We'll see...

Yes I’m curious about your experience with the 12.3.3 version we’re using.

 

[Route246]

I've enjoyed a PHEV since 2018, and just bought another one. As someone who suffers from chronic range anxiety it's perfect for my lifestyle and certainly a great transition away from pure ICE.

We have a Prius Prime and RAV4 Prime, probably operate close to 100% EV mode when we are home. When we are on the road with the RAV4 Prime we get 32-33 MPG on gas without even trying. We have the best of both worlds. My Prius Prime has 25K miles and has burned a total of 16 gallons of petrol during that time, some of it intentional in order to burn off old to refresh with new.

 

[braumeister]

We have a Prius Prime and RAV4 Prime, probably operate close to 100% EV mode when we are home.

Yes, the RAV4 Prime is what I just bought. I love it!
Typically 43-45 miles range on battery, so I only use gas when I go out of town.

 

[Midpack]

We have a Prius Prime and RAV4 Prime, probably operate close to 100% EV mode when we are home. When we are on the road with the RAV4 Prime we get 32-33 MPG on gas without even trying. We have the best of both worlds. My Prius Prime has 25K miles and has burned a total of 16 gallons of petrol during that time, some of it intentional in order to burn off old to refresh with new.

That’s amazing. You are clearly an ideal case owner, congrats. We had a standard hybrid Prius 2013-2018, it was a great car averaging nearly 50 mpg, higher in Spring and Fall.

 

[explanade]

A car is not an investment. Strange claim to be seen in the ER forum.


Some of the FSD engineers have been sent to work for Musk's AI startup.

 

[ERD50]

A car is not an investment. Strange claim to be seen in the ER forum. ....

Well, Musk claimed that a Tesla with their 'soon to be released' self driving software would be a money-making investment:

https://electrek.co/2019/04/12/tesla-vehicles-appreciating-assets-self-driving-elon-musk/

the CEO said that Tesla’s vehicles are now ‘appreciating assets’ due to their self-driving capability.

....

The CEO says that the vehicle will be worth more because they will be used a lot more often as self-driving taxi vehicles

But I think recent comments of an 'investment' in a car were using the term more broadly. You are sinking money in, 'investing' it - that doesn't mean you are expecting any return, other then the utility/joy that product provides.

-ERD50

 

[dixonge]

Saw that Ford just announced it was further delaying both upcoming and existing EV production. 7+ Billion ICE profit, almost 5 Billion EV loss. It is very difficult for legacy OEM auto manufacturers to make major changes like this.

Should benefit TSLA and BYD, maybe Rivian. Anyone waiting around for other manufacturer EV products might give up on that idea.

As has been mentioned in the thread already (somewhere) Tesla's main big moats (as far as I can tell) are their highly automated factories and insourcing of parts and their lack of a dealership sales layer. Those are the two areas where legacy OEM's are hitting a wall. Maybe one of them will spin off an EV branch/brand and give it free reign. Not holding my breath...

 

[ERD50]

...
As has been mentioned in the thread already (somewhere) Tesla's main big moats (as far as I can tell) are their highly automated factories and insourcing of parts and their lack of a dealership sales layer. Those are the two areas where legacy OEM's are hitting a wall. Maybe one of them will spin off an EV branch/brand and give it free reign. Not holding my breath...

I've never really thought about how much Tesla is saving by eliminating that middle-man. I don't recall seeing any analysis, but those car dealers take up land, hold inventory, hire staff, etc. Offset by repair/maint work to some degree. But it must be signifigant % of margin?

I, like many, just hate the car buying process. I hold on to my cars longer because of it. So I sure hope this pushes competition.

edit/ found this:


https://theweek.com/us/1024416/tesla-vs-car-dealerships

Economists and other critics say dealerships "add an unnecessary middleman, pressuring sales tactics and layers of markup and fees that can range from a few hundred dollars to $20,000 or more per vehicle over the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (MSRP)," the Tallahassee Democrat reported.

-ERD50

 

[RetMD21]

If you think it is doing something wrong you should disengage and then record a voice msg saying why. That will help them to improve it.

If there is a white line at the stop sign the law says you should stop there even if you can't see. V11 obeyed this.

V12 stopped at the implied stop line. I noticed it makes wide left turns, that is going into the curb lane when there are two. Most people do that too.

The interesting thing today was at an intersection that shifts from 2 lanes to one on the other side of the signal intersection. You can go straight from either lane but the right lane isn't marked and ends a few car lengths past the intersection. On the first trip through it hesitated and zigzagged before picking the center lane. On another trip through there was a car waiting to turn left. My Tesla chose to wait behind them rather than using the right lane to go around as soon as the light changed.

Although the FSD is interesting, I am a better and quicker driver and it isn't really allowing me to devote my attention to something else. I don't see the point at least for my typical around town driving.

 

[joesxm3]

Tesla just dropped the FSD subscription price to $99/month.

I would subscribe but my 2024.8 software level is still waiting for the free month.

 

[audreyh1]

Tesla just dropped the FSD subscription price to $99/month.

I would subscribe but my 2024.8 software level is still waiting for the free month.

Wow, thanks for the news!

Several folks on TMC said they got a free month even with the subscription. Their next payment due date was moved out a month or something like that.

 

[Agapostemon]

Why I'm interested in an EV

Short version: I rented a Polestar for a week last year and loved it.

Long version: I own a 2013 Civic which I bought at the end of 2015, that I drive less than 1500 miles a year. The closest thing to an advanced safety feature is the backup camera. I wanted a car with Rear Cross Traffic Alert but I couldn't find one within my budget back then.

Now RCTA, blind spot warning, adaptive cruise control, aerial view and all sort of goodies are within reach. I don't want another ICE vehicle because it's not good for a car to sit around that much. A plug-in hybrid seems unnecessarily complicated. Besides, I mostly drive on surface roads, so I'd be into EV mode 90% of the time. That's why an EV makes the most sense to me.

So I'm looking at two to three year old EVs, maybe even a Polestar.

 

[Ready]

I picked up a Performance Model Y on the final day of Q1. They let me transfer the FSD from my five year old M3 to the MY. FSD is still pretty buggy for city driving but it’s fine for highway use. If I did not already own it, I’d probably consider renting it for $99/month. At $199/month I wouldn’t have even considered it.

 

[Midpack]

Tesla just dropped the FSD subscription price to $99/month.

Interesting. I’m guessing the more cars using FSD, the faster V12 will “learn” and improve - and if they can get twice as many subscriptions they maintain revenue. I’m finding V12 to be an improvement, smoother and can handle more decisions well, and I sure like fewer nags! But it’s still unnatural at stop signs and near pedestrians, but at least it always errs on the side of caution - IOW neither V11 or V12 has ever done anything unsafe IME.

 

[audreyh1]

The interstate driving with FSD (which I understand is still the older v11 stack like with enhanced autopilot) is SO much better than the basic autopilot. It’s made this long road trip so much easier and more restful. So many things that basic autopilot doesn’t handle well FSD handles superbly.

Also I haven’t been nagged about my hands on the wheel once. I used to be routinely nagged about my hands on the wheel during long straight sections even though my hands were on the wheel the whole time. With FSD the car makes natural feeling variations of position within the lane and my hands may be providing enough resistance to indicate they are on the wheel/yoke. Also I believe it’s now primarily using the cabin camera to monitor driver attentiveness. Haven’t gotten in trouble for looking away from the road either.

 

[joesxm3]

I thought you might think that with your long drive. After having FSD V11.4 going back to basic autopilot seemed scary. Glad to hear that you had similar thoughts so I know it was not my imagination.

 

[audreyh1]

So many things are improved. Lane keeping is way better. Appreciate how it hugs left or right as other vehicles pass. Driving through construction is so much better. Requesting a lane change via turn signal works super smooth, so elegant. And wow it actually accelerates when changing lanes to pass another vehicle - the old autopilot would maddeningly slow down. And amazingly FSD quickly gets back into the original lane when someone approaches behind. All of this makes passing super easy.

Also the occasional reactions to road surface discolorations are much milder and less frequent. It might hesitate but very quickly resolves so I rarely have to take action.

A few weird things on occasion (like sometimes it keeps wanting to shift into the left passing lane even though no traffic around). Minor and infrequent.

About 900 miles into our trip so far.