neutral wire help

[harley]

I'm not sure if this belongs in this forum, or Other. Mods, feel free to move if you see fit.

I've recently purchased a new home, and am getting ready to leave it for a few months in our FL home. In the process of setting it up to be left I do things like putting lights on timers, add wifi cameras and thermostats, and am also installing wall switch timers to turn outside lights off and on to make it appear someone is in residence.

I'm just enough of an electrician to not usually burn anything down or end up in the hospital. The timers I'm using need a neutral wire, and the existing toggles don't have one. In the past all my switches have had a neutral, so it's been no problem. I think neutral wires are usually white, and I have a pigtail of 4 white wires shoved in the back of the 3 gang box. When I pull it apart, one is hot and the others are not.

My question is, how can I run a neutral wire to the timer switch? Do I just pull a (non-hot) white out of the pigtail and stick it in the timer switch? Or is there more to it that that? I've done searches, but haven't found anything that matches my needs. If anyone can help, I'd appreciate it.

 

[Golden sunsets]

Have you considered using WiFi switches, outlets and thermostats to control and monitor everything remotely? I have done this very successfully, with the added benefit that in my absence I am notified when the power is out. In fact I use my phone even when I am home, to change temps, turn indoor and outdoor lights in, manage the Sonos music system and adjust the irrigation system.

 

[harley]

I'd still need the neutral wire. I do use wifi cameras, thermostats, and water detectors. But times work out fine too, and either way they need that neutral wire.

Edit: I'm assuming the reason electricians don't automatically use the neutrals these days is so you need to call them if you want to install all the fancy smart electrical devices. Up until a few years ago all the plugs/switches I saw had a neutral installed.

 

[OldShooter]

If one of the white wires is hot, it is almost certainly due to some device on the circuit being "on." You have interrupted the circuit but the device is effectively connecting that white wire to the hot side through its load.

From an electrical point of view you can just connect to that gob of white wires. If those neutrals belong to the same hot/black wire that you are connecting, then you are golden. If not, then I'm not sure if the code likes the connection because you are returning two different circuits on the same neutral. In theory you could overload the neutral side and there is no circuit breaker on that side to protect you. I am too lazy to dig out my "Wiring Simplified" code book to check though. (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Wiring-...lectrical-Installation-Guide-ERB-WS/100085271)

 

[Winemaker]

I would believe that your pigtail is the neutral wire, and that the fact one of them is "hot" is that it is completing one of the four circuits in that area. You say it is a 3 gang box, so are there other switches? But here is the situation I believe. A neutral wire completes the circuit back to the breaker box after the hot wire energizes the load. So your 14-2WG Romex comes into the gang box. The black or hot wire goes to your switch, then is still black up to the fixture; becoming hot when the switch is turned on. The white wire (neutral) leaves the fixture back to the pigtail of neutrals in the back. Your timer needs a neutral to complete the "timer" part of your switch, which is why it needs a separate neutral to complete that circuit. The addition of another short wire from the timer to your pigtail is required. I don't know how you are determining how one of your white wires in your pigtail is hot, but is there something else in your 3 way gang box is on, and making it "hot". I hope I am making myself clear.

 

[ERD50]

.... I think neutral wires are usually white, and I have a pigtail of 4 white wires shoved in the back of the 3 gang box. When I pull it apart, one is hot and the others are not. ...

That could have created a problem - you really should not disconnect a neutral and apply power, unless you know exactly how they are wired (yes, I did this, and I knew better The lights in the kitchen got REAL bright! Only one other small amount of damage, I got lucky.).

Our 110V circuits are actually two 220V circuits, with a common neutral between them. If you open a neutral, and connect power, you could be 'floating' the neutral between the two circuits. If one circuit has a heavy load, and the other a light load, the 220V will be split unevenly. The heavy load will have low voltage, and the light load can go right up to 220V and blow something out.

Hopefully, you just disconnected one branch so that branch just had power cut, no overage on another branch.

I installed a timer that required a neutral, luckily, I was able to pull one from a nearby light fixture (conduit here, so easy to pull another wire.

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

If one of the white wires is hot, it is almost certainly due to some device on the circuit being "on." You have interrupted the circuit but the device is effectively connecting that white wire to the hot side through its load. ...

I cross posted with the last two, but yes, this is a good explanation. That loose neutral is 'hot' because it is passing the voltage through the load on that circuit.

-ERD50

 

[CaptTom]

Also, if it's a switch, is it a three-way switch? That is, two switches control one light?

That gets a bit more complicated, but just google it and you'll find 1,000 diagrams to help you out.

But otherwise, yeah, a neutral is a neutral. As long as it's on the same circuit breaker, it doesn't matter where you pull it from.

PS: There are code requirements, too. Like you need to use the same gauge and type of wire, and you can't have too many connections in the same box. If you don't know these rules, you might want to look them up or [gasp!] call an electrician.

 

[nobody]

When I installed my outdoor light on a timer, it got interesting since it was a 3-way. If I recall I had to purchase a timer that would work with a 3-way switch and the timer had to be installed at the switch location where the Neutral is tied directly to the panel. Didn't like it, but I did it that way, but it meant the timer was at front door instead of rear hallway.

 

[Ronstar]

The best way that I can think of getting a neutral to the timer is to pigtail another neutral from the group of 4 over to the timer. Making it a group of 5.

Do not disconnect one of the white wires from the existing 4 wire pigtail and run it to the timer.

 

[travelover]

The best way that I can think of getting a neutral to the timer is to pigtail another neutral from the group of 4 over to the timer. Making it a group of 5.

Do not disconnect one of the white wires from the existing 4 wire pigtail and run it to the timer.

That's what I'd do, as well.

 

[freedomatlast]

For outside lights, I prefer using photocells rather than timers. With photocells, you never have to manually adjust for more daylight hours in the summer and less in the winter.

 

[ERD50]

For outside lights, I prefer using photocells rather than timers. With photocells, you never have to manually adjust for more daylight hours in the summer and less in the winter.

The new timers have a built in adjustment, you just tell them what latitude zone you are in when you set it up. You set the date, so it knows when dusk/dawn is now. Very nice.

-ERD50

 

[sengsational]

If you've got a 'usually don't burn it down' level of skill, you probably have a multimeter? Or something that tells you voltage? I've got 1/2 dozen things that I could use (including a nightlight bulb with a couple of wires on it).

The ground (bare wire) and the neutral are the same potential, so no voltage difference. Something in the box will have NO voltage from it to the ground. That's your neutral. Obviously you'll need to test while the circuit is 'hot'. We'll know why, if you suddenly stop posting.

 

[harley]

When I installed my outdoor light on a timer, it got interesting since it was a 3-way. If I recall I had to purchase a timer that would work with a 3-way switch and the timer had to be installed at the switch location where the Neutral is tied directly to the panel. Didn't like it, but I did it that way, but it meant the timer was at front door instead of rear hallway.

The three switches in the box are a single pole and two three ways. I'm currently working on the single, although once I figure it out I'd like to do one of the three ways too. I've installed timers before, but I always had neutral wires going to the existing switches before, so it was pretty easy.

The best way that I can think of getting a neutral to the timer is to pigtail another neutral from the group of 4 over to the timer. Making it a group of 5.

Do not disconnect one of the white wires from the existing 4 wire pigtail and run it to the timer.

That's my plan at this point. I'll work on it in the morning when I have light available.