Older vehicle upkeep?

[FreeBear]

Does your calculus change when the older vehicle has low mileage?

I ask because I have a 7-year-old car with 43K miles that I like very much; but, eventually, I expect to encounter age, rather than mileage, related issues. (I am already concerned about tires, age not wear, which will not be cheap for this particular vehicle.)

Sounds like a keeper, at least for a few more years, given that you like the car and don't report major mechanical drama. Perhaps you'll get another 3-5 years out of a set of new tires and brakes, when needed. These days, 7 years and 43K miles doesn't seem much.

Unless you really want new car, I'd be inclined to bite the bullet on the new tires, and drive for at least few more years. I wouldn't worry too much about what will eventually happen as the car succumbs to plain old age, regardless of mileage. Expensive non-wear items (not tires, brakes, fluids) will start to fail more quickly and you'll get tired messing around and poor reliability.

 

[FreeBear]

I've often wondered about that but haven't drove a car into the ground in the last couple decades (leasing on company stipend) and when I did it as a younger lad, did not keep records. How much did it end up costing you per mile and how much per year of ownership? I'm working off a lease right now at 20 cents per mile. I know that's a great deal, but if driving to the ground doesn't get close to that, I'd want to just keep leasing (as company stipend has now gone away).

Jerry, I agree you are getting a good deal on the lease, esp. if the mileage cap isn't an issue and you get a new ride every few years!

During the first 5 years, my CRV cost averaged 20 cents/mi (17 cents/mi depreciation, 3 cents/mi maintenance). During the last 5 year it cost 21 cents/mi (8 cents/mi depreciation, 13 cents/mi maintenance and, mainly, repair). Note: this does NOT include the cost of fuel.

Note that the 13 cents/mile repair & maintenance is probably on the high end because all major work was done by the dealer and I don't think my CRV exhibited exactly legendary reliability beyond 120K miles. Still, I don't see getting the repair bill to less than 7 cent/mi by going to an independent mechanic and getting luckier in the reliability department.

So somehow miraculously saving on repairs 6 cents a mile times 15K miles/year would save at most $900/yr, more likely say about $500-$600. Saving several hundred dollars yearly is no longer worth it to me when a new model would be much nicer and much more reliable.

Thinking this through, the only way it would make sense for me to drive a car into the ground would be a) return to doing most of my own mechanical work or b) find a super-cheap but competent mechanic. Since neither is likely to happen, I'll probably dump cars before 120K to 140K miles, preferably things really fall apart.

 

[Koolau]

Just my 2 cents worth, so bear with me. I've come to believe that the "sweet spot" (for me) is to purchase a roughly 10 year old car with relatively low mileage (no more than 8K miles per year on the odometer.) Then drive the car for another 10 years or so (I rarely put more than 6K miles/year/car). Driving so few miles per car per year makes a "new" car very expensive per mile while it makes per mile cost on a gently used car much less. Now, this assumes only typical kinds of things going wrong with the used car (the occasional water pump or fuel pump or struts maybe - not a transmission or engine rebuild.) No one can guarantee that a used car (or even a new one) won't be a lemon so there's that.

Now, in terms of reliability, the new car is the way to go. In terms of per mile cost, I think a case can be made for keeping or purchasing an older car. It's some what of a crap shoot, but so is most of life. YMMV

 

[dvalley]

You're "spot on".... The average age of cars on the road these days in the US is 11.6 years!
http://www.autonews.com/article/201...erage-age-of-vehicles-on-road-hits-11.6-years

omni

Thanks -there used to be a time when buying a 5yr old car and then driving it 10yrs was the way to go. However, the EPA and other regulations are making the cars disposable and I wonder scrapping cars with useful life in its own way harmful to our environment too. For e.g. the new catalytic converters are good for 10yrs and are guaranteed for that period of time which is great for the new car owner. However, what happens at the end of 10yr when they go bad and you have to pay out of pocket? $500-800 a pop for the CA emissions ones (you can't put the cheap ones in, not in CA and many other states are following suit). But wait, there are two catalytic converters now, upstream and downstream. If you have more than 4cyl you now have 4 of them. And 4 oxygen sensors along with AFR sensors. Like the CATs most of these emissions related things are good for 10yr. So you're potentially looking at t $2-3k worth of emissions work after the first 10yrs. TPMS sensors, yep good for 10yrs of battery life. This is on top of the general mechanical work (timing belts, water pumps, alternators) and wear items. Kinda sad but then again we're not too far from the electric vehicles becoming mainstream.

 

[Blue Collar Guy]

Does your calculus change when the older vehicle has low mileage?

I ask because I have a 7-year-old car with 43K miles that I like very much; but, eventually, I expect to encounter age, rather than mileage, related issues. (I am already concerned about tires, age not wear, which will not be cheap for this particular vehicle.)

I buy used tires, my tires suffer from rot, sitting outside in the sun and salt. HUGE discount. When I had an old bomb of a car i used to buy $20 tires every year, it was either that or a $900 bill for front end work, I opted for the tires
.

 

[brett]

After our Toyota's got to about 100K we stopped with the dealer service.

One exception. Our dealer does a while you wait oil change at a very attractive price. I take this offer. Plus they look over the car and give me a to do list. I take this to may local mechanic. He was trained by Toyota. They sometimes put some silly thing on their quote. Like cleaning the battery terminals for $40. I did it in five minutes with a wire brush. That is the problem with they price by the job as if it was the only work they were doing. Shocks were about half the price at my mechanic and he uses Toyota parts.

The 97 Camry XLE has 275K miles on it. Does not burn oil, never has. I think the secret is following the owner's manual as it pertains to changing the fluids on sched...transmission, brake, power steering, coolant. And ensuring that you use the proper brands of fluid..especially radiator. My son has this now. Over the past two years he has done oil change and tires. We still have an 06 Accord and an 07 Solara summer car. We are taking the same approach with them.

 

[omni550]

I now have an appt. on Aug 11 with one of two service centers that specialize in Japanese cars which I found through the site travelover posted above CarTalk.com. (Wasn't the most intuitive search. I finally put in the whole state and searched for a nearby location that services Toyotas.)

Both had rave reviews from many satisfied customers, (including women who said don't feel like they are being talked down to). Nor did anyone posting feel upsold.

The service folks are about 20 miles away, but I can deal with that. Hopefully, they can do any needed work while I wait.

Will report back.

omni

PS: Got a postcard from the dealer today offering me a 12% discount on any of the services I declined last week.

 

[Disappointed]

I found independent repair shops are now charging very close to dealers, savings can be very small like 10% or less. The dealers usually just follow the manufacturers maintenance guides to keep the car in spec, of course they love the maintenance guides.

 

[Ronstar]

I now have an appt. on Aug 11 with one of two service centers that specialize in Japanese cars which I found through the site travelover posted above CarTalk.com. (Wasn't the most intuitive search. I finally put in the whole state and searched for a nearby location that services Toyotas.)

Both had rave reviews from many satisfied customers, (including women who said don't feel like they are being talked down to). Nor did anyone posting feel upsold.

The service folks are about 20 miles away, but I can deal with that. Hopefully, they can do any needed work while I wait.

Will report back.

omni


PS: Got a postcard from the dealer today offering me a 12% discount on any of the services I declined last week.

Regardless of discount, I still would go the independent service center as opposed to the dealer. Like others have said - just get enough work done on it to keep it drivable. 2006 isn't too old and 138,000 miles isn't that many miles. You should get about another 5 years out of that vehicle if you keep your mileage down.

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

Just my 2 cents worth, so bear with me. I've come to believe that the "sweet spot" (for me) is to purchase a roughly 10 year old car with relatively low mileage (no more than 8K miles per year on the odometer.) Then drive the car for another 10 years or so.

This has been my formula as well -- with the addendum that I look for cars that were expensive when new, and sellers who looked after the car like their first-born child. It's pretty easy to spot a vehicle that has been babied vs. one that has been ridden hard and put away wet.

 

[travelover]

............The dealers usually just follow the manufacturers maintenance guides to keep the car in spec, of course they love the maintenance guides.

That is not what I've seen. Dealers make up their own maintenance schedule and even procedures, like flushes and "inspections" that considerably exceed the actual owner's manual required maintenance.

 

[Jerry1]

Jerry, I agree you are getting a good deal on the lease, esp. if the mileage cap isn't an issue and you get a new ride every few years!

During the first 5 years, my CRV cost averaged 20 cents/mi (17 cents/mi depreciation, 3 cents/mi maintenance). During the last 5 year it cost 21 cents/mi (8 cents/mi depreciation, 13 cents/mi maintenance and, mainly, repair). Note: this does NOT include the cost of fuel.

Note that the 13 cents/mile repair & maintenance is probably on the high end because all major work was done by the dealer and I don't think my CRV exhibited exactly legendary reliability beyond 120K miles. Still, I don't see getting the repair bill to less than 7 cent/mi by going to an independent mechanic and getting luckier in the reliability department.

So somehow miraculously saving on repairs 6 cents a mile times 15K miles/year would save at most $900/yr, more likely say about $500-$600. Saving several hundred dollars yearly is no longer worth it to me when a new model would be much nicer and much more reliable.

Thinking this through, the only way it would make sense for me to drive a car into the ground would be a) return to doing most of my own mechanical work or b) find a super-cheap but competent mechanic. Since neither is likely to happen, I'll probably dump cars before 120K to 140K miles, preferably things really fall apart.

Thanks for the information. Note that the 20 cents per mile on my current lease is an outlier. I typically run closer to 25 - 30 cents. I appreciate the information though because one of my considerations is to own one car and lease another. The lease car would be very utilitarian and the goal would be to keep the cost as low as possible. The objective is to ensure one very reliable car in a two car family. Now that I'm part time, I don't drive as much and with DW retiring last year, she drives very little. The dynamics of our driving expense is changing and I'm trying to adjust to it. We already bought the new car and my lease runs out in January 2018 so I have some time to plan. Right now though I think the Autos are in rough shape and inventory is building so good leases my be out there for awhile. We'll see.

 

[target2019]

Thanks, travelover.

Found a highly-rated one for working on Toyotas 20 miles away using cartalk.com.

I'll be calling them for my next an appointment to get their [2nd?] opinion on the suggested laundry list from the dealer.

I'll have to figure out transportation if they need to keep it overnight. (The dealer always gave me a "free" loaner to drive. I know, I know, I was "paying" for it.)

I bought a new 2002 Toyota Highlander. In the 2nd or 3rd year the service dealer came out with a laundry list. It was $2500, filled with "yellow" items. One was a leaking water pump. they said. On further questioning, there was crust on the water pump seal. Ok, I declined all the additional work, and just went for the free warranty work. In 2015 that car was sold, and the crust was still in place on the water pump.

Hope you find a reasonable repair shop, if you decide to keep the car.

 

[omni550]

The rest of the story...

This morning I went over to the independent service center specializing in Japanese vehicles.

What a pleasure it was to deal with these guys. The place isn't fancy, but was tidy. And the 3 guys (plus the owner) with whom I chatted were all very pleasant.

I explained I was there to get a 2nd opinion on the ~$3100. laundry list of repairs (power steering hose, front and rear struts, etc.) the dealer had recommended. The mechanic spent 30 minutes checking out my SUV. With regard to the power steering line -- he said he saw a smudge of oil/grease on it, but no evidence of leaking. He did find that the tires were about 6 psi low (and he topped them off to the recommended pressure)...and this was after 30 minutes of driving, so their cold pressures must've been even a few psi lower. I'll recheck the pressures when the tires are cold.

Initially, the front desk guy estimated that it'd be about $23.00. When all was said and done, they didn't charge me a cent! So, basically, I just saved $3100. (I do realize that the struts will eventually need replacing, but this will be sometime in the future...when they really NEED it, not now when the dealership wants to make $$$.)

I think I've just found my new mechanic/service center.

omni

PS: While I was waiting, the front desk guy was chatting with me and said that due to the longevity of parts on some vehicles, they are not making money as quickly/easily as in the past. He used the example of Prius -- their brakes often are lasting 100,000 miles as the regenerative braking by the engine keeps the actual brake pads from wearing down as quickly as they would on the average vehicle. And this service center is located in Ann Arbor -- home to many Prius cars. Nonetheless, they seem to be quite busy... half a dozen cars in their tiny lot and a 2-week wait for service. LOL

 

[Which Roger]

Even if the independent service's center's rates aren't that much lower than the dealer's, I've saved myself a lot of money by going the independent route after the warranty is up. First, my independent guy only fixes what needs fixing. For example, when my engine light was on, new spark plugs seemed to take care of the problem. He told me that the one of the coils was also showing a lot of wear and could possibly be contributing to the problem, but recommended that I just wait and see if the light came back on. And it never did. I'm pretty certain a dealer would told me that all needed to be replaced. Second, my independent guy uses rebuilt or used parts when it makes sense. No need for a new part that will long outlast the vehicle if a used part has enough life left in it.

 

[brett]

Five years ago, when my Camry was 12 years old, I took it to the dealer for the while you wait oil change special.

Sure enough, as always, they gave me a laundry list of required work. Lots, including shocks/struts. Their estimate was $3200. At that time I started to look a replacement vehicle. A few folks at work who owned Toyota products suggested a private mechanic-Toyota specialist.

Bottom line....all of the work was done for under $1400. All Toyota replacement parts, right down to the coolant. The dealer priced each activity by itself and charged top dollar for parts. Decided to keep the car. Five years on the only other expense has been tires and a long overdue wheel alignment. My guess is that my son will run this car into the ground. He has had 2 years plus from it and hopes to get another two years.

The only difference. No fancy waiting area, free coffee, tv, wireless. No drive in bay. Sometimes we have to leave it for an extra day-not a big deal.
Small price to pay for great, reliable service at a lower price.

We still go to the dealer sometimes for very specific items. While you wait oil change, transmission fluid replacement, etc. On these items the dealer service is fast and competitively priced. Plus, our private mechanic does not really want to do simple oil changes.

 

[Which Roger]

About 20 years ago, I brought my SUV to a dealer to diagnose a noise coming from the front differential. The service guy told me that the differential was shot, and it would be $1800 minimum to fix, plus whatever else they might find after they opened it up. He strongly encouraged me scrap it and visit their showroom to shop for a new vehicle. Sounded fishy to say the least. I told him I'd think about it, then took it to the independent guy I trust. 20 bucks later, my differential fluid was topped off, and the noise was gone.

 

[tfudtuckerpucker]

I usually turn to Google, before I talk to a car mechanic. Funny story- a few years ago my FIL bought a new Ford Focus. It made some bizarre noises after the engine was turned off. The dealer didn't know how to fix it. I did some googling, and found there was a firmware update needed. There was even a youtube video with the exact sound. So I gave the firmware info to FIL, and he took it to the dealer, and that fixed the problem.

 

[John Galt III]

I found independent repair shops are now charging very close to dealers, savings can be very small like 10% or less. The dealers usually just follow the manufacturers maintenance guides to keep the car in spec, of course they love the maintenance guides.

+1. I got a price of $500 at the dealer to replace a timing belt. Then I called up my local independent guy I have been using for years and they wanted $575 with about $75 worth of extra parts included. My independent guy used to be dirt cheap, always lower than the stealership.

 

[Mr._Graybeard]

$500 for a timing belt is crazy cheap. Is the water pump driven off the belt? If so, it makes sense to change the water pump as well. You may get by with reusing the tensioner, but I can't imagine that a pro would do so because of liability issues.

 

[ncbill]

my solution was to switch to vehicles that use timing chains instead.

 

[RE2Boys]

my solution was to switch to vehicles that use timing chains instead.

Since I buy used, in the last ten years I do the research to make sure that the engine has a timing chain and not a belt. Back in the 1990s I had a belt go, luckily on a non-interference Mitsubishi engine.

 

[gcgang]

Last year spent $6500 on a car that Bluebooks for $10k. 15 yr old daughter, lobbied for new, questioning wisdom of "investing" $6500 in a $10k asset. To me, car worth > $10k, but probably facing another round of expenses soon. Tesla?

 

[pjigar]

I work on my own cars which is my hobby. I buy 4-6 year old vehicles closing in at around 70K miles. I replace every consumable item (fluids, breaks, rotors, belts, tensioners, shocks, etc.) for couple of grands and I get 50K miles easy without dropping anther dime.

 

[samclem]

This morning I went over to the independent service center specializing in Japanese vehicles.

What a pleasure it was to deal with these guys. The place isn't fancy, but was tidy. And the 3 guys (plus the owner) with whom I chatted were all very pleasant.

And that's another advantage of an independent shop--you'll often get to actually talk to the person who did the work on your car. It only takes a couple of minutes to learn a lot: what to watch for, things that may need replacing soon (but not yet), problems specific to your vehicle type, how they did the diagnosis/troubleshooting and what they ruled out, etc. At the dealer, they want to restrict access to the mechanics (who are kept busy working on cars), and have you talk to the service writer (who usually has never worked on a car, but knows how to sell you stuff).