Sleep pattern and sleeping pills

[GenXguy]

If Ambien works for you, OTC valerian probably will too because of similar chemistry, however valerian is not as powerful, which can be a good or bad thing depending on your perspective.

Or not. See:

https://www.early-retirement.org/fo...-and-sleeping-pills-119378-2.html#post2992355

Valerian Root - doesn't help at all

Ambien and Xanax are powerful drugs with significant side-effect profiles and risk of dependence. Maybe occasional use would be okay (Xanax for getting through a day or two of sleeplessness because of specific stresses should not be problematic for most people.) I wouldn't want to be taking these drugs on a daily basis if there were any other options with better side-effect profiles available. BUT, I'm no doctor and have no particular qualifications on the subject. Therefore YMMV.

I didn't need it until I got severe tinnitus. I wouldn't take it if I didn't need it, but I've been using it for over 2 years, and I still take 1/8th of a pill sublingual as a standard dose if I wake up and can't sleep. I actually took 5mg at bedtime early on, so I take a lot less now. I have no side effects, but I still don't get enough sleep even though it helps.

I don't take Xanax at all, no prescription. A friend has been taking it for several years at a strength that is about 15X that of my zolpidem dose. I do have Ativan, which very similar with a longer half life, but I only take it occasionally and at a lower dose - no side effects. Where people get into the most trouble with benzos is taking them daily and at higher doses because they build tolerance and dependency. I have to get each refill authorized by the doctor.

All those supplements (melatonin and many more), CBD, THC, sleep hygiene tips just don't work. Even those OTC sleep meds and common prescription meds like Trazodone and Hydroxyzine don't do anything for me. Some people with severe tinnitus have luck with low dose Mirtazapine, but I've never tried it. I've heard it can be hell to wean off of also. I think the DORA drugs would be good to try - concerned about the high cost since my insurance won't pay anything on those tier 4 drugs until I meet my health plan's deductible, if at all. Zolpidem is low cost as are the other meds I mentioned except the DORA meds.

 

[pacergal]

GenXGuy--sorry to hear of your severe tinnitus. I have a very mild case, noticeable only a few seconds several times daily, result of severe ear drum scarring from multiple infections as a kid. I can not imagine haw difficult it is for you.

Have you had a consult with an ENT to see if there is anything to be done to help ?

 

[GenXguy]

GenXGuy--sorry to hear of your severe tinnitus. I have a very mild case, noticeable only a few seconds several times daily, result of severe ear drum scarring from multiple infections as a kid. I can not imagine haw difficult it is for you.

Have you had a consult with an ENT to see if there is anything to be done to help ?

Thank you. I have to go back about 20 years to when I had mild tinnitus, but it got a lot worse over 2 years ago. Yes, I have been to GP, ENT, and University hearing clinic. There are all sort of things different people try desperate for some relief, but there's no cure for tinnitus, so the only treatments are masking, and treating other symptoms like anxiety and insomnia.

There might be a treatment in the next few years that could help some people affected with tinnitus that hasn't been approved by FDA yet. It's not a cure and won't eliminate it, even for those who it works for.

https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f38/any-effective-tinnitus-therapies-119451.html#post2994538

 

[FloridaJim57]

I have had insomnia all of my adult life, starting in college and continuing into retirement. The weird thing is, I fall alseep immediately, but I ALWAYS wake up around 1 or 2 am and cannot fall back to sleep. There were many days when I was operating with only 3 or 4 hours sleep. I tried every type of prescription sleep aid. One doctor even gave me time released ones in order to help me sleep through the night without wakup. Nothing, and I mean nothing worked. I also tried natural sleep aids such as melatonin, etc. but no dice. Please note, I do not wake up because I have to go the bathroom, have nightmares, etc. Then about two years ago I went to a dermatologist to look at a skin lesion. He said move your neck and I said "I can't, I have arthritis of the neck." He said "if I remember correctly, you have insomnia also". I said "yes, indeed". He said I have just the the thing for both the neck arthritis and insomnia: Gabapentin. He wrote me a prescrption for 300mg pills and said take 1 or 2 a half our before bedtime. I can honestly say that nothing has improved my sleeep like Gapapentin. In the rare times I do wake up at night I fall back to sleep in five minutes. Plus it relieves my neck arthritis. I now get my prescrption from a neurologist who fully agreed with my dermatologist about the drug. For a while I thought that it was causing blurred vision but when I went to the eye surgeon he said it was cataracts which have since been corrected.

 

[GenXguy]

I have had insomnia all of my adult life, starting in college and continuing into retirement. The weird thing is, I fall alseep immediately, but I ALWAYS wake up around 1 or 2 am and cannot fall back to sleep. There were many days when I was operating with only 3 or 4 hours sleep. I tried every type of prescription sleep aid. One doctor even gave me time released ones in order to help me sleep through the night without wakup. Nothing, and I mean nothing worked. I also tried natural sleep aids such as melatonin, etc. but no dice. Please note, I do not wake up because I have to go the bathroom, have nightmares, etc. Then about two years ago I went to a dermatologist to look at a skin lesion. He said move your neck and I said "I can't, I have arthritis of the neck." He said "if I remember correctly, you have insomnia also". I said "yes, indeed". He said I have just the the thing for both the neck arthritis and insomnia: Gabapentin. He wrote me a prescrption for 300mg pills and said take 1 or 2 a half our before bedtime. I can honestly say that nothing has improved my sleeep like Gapapentin. In the rare times I do wake up at night I fall back to sleep in five minutes. Plus it relieves my neck arthritis. I now get my prescrption from a neurologist who fully agreed with my dermatologist about the drug. For a while I thought that it was causing blurred vision but when I went to the eye surgeon he said it was cataracts which have since been corrected.

That's actually one of the meds I've looked into. Pregabalin is another one similar to it.

I usually fall asleep initially ok without meds but after waking up one or two times, I can't get back to sleep without some sublingual Zolpidem.

Are you getting at least 7 hours of sleep now?

There's a couple newer drugs called DORA's that work differently. Quviviq and Dayvigo that I linked to the info in an earlier post. Have you ever tried either of those? They might not have been available before you used Gabapentin.

 

[FloridaJim57]

That's actually one of the meds I've looked into. Pregabalin is another one similar to it.

I usually fall asleep initially ok without meds but after waking up one or two times, I can't get back to sleep without some sublingual Zolpidem.

Are you getting at least 7 hours of sleep now?

There's a couple newer drugs called DORA's that work differently. Quviviq and Dayvigo that I linked to the info in an earlier post. Have you ever tried either of those? They might not have been available before you used Gabapentin.

Yes, I am now getting about 7.5 hours sleep per night. I take 300 mgs. about a half hour before bedtime. When my neck is acting up I take 600 mgs. I have never needed to take more than that although my neurologist told me that he has patients with nerve damage, etc. who take more than 2,000 mgs per day. The only side effect I experience with more than 300 mgs per night is a feeling of disorientation and "spinning floor" for about three to five minutes when I wake up. It goes away immediately with a cup of coffee. There will no doubt be posts telling you how bad sleep drugs are and someone will no doubt write that gabatpentin will have some horrible effect on me down the road. Those people never had to go to work on three hours sleep, or drive long distances, or have to apologize to their spouse for being so irritable all due to a sleep disorder. I have spoken to two neurologists (one in NYC and one in Tampa), my general practitioner, my eye surgeon, and my osteo doctor and they all agreed that if you have to take a prescription med, gabapentin is a good choice. Again, would I prefer to sleep naturally? Of course. But due to some chemical imbalance I cannot therefore I must do what I must do.

 

[sengsational]

There will no doubt be posts telling you how bad sleep drugs are and someone will no doubt write that gabatpentin will have some horrible effect on me down the road.

If a drug in the US is approved for the indication of improved sleep, the criteria used to allow the indication is the precise definition of non-restorative sleep. This (roughly) according to Matt Walker, an internationally recognized sleep expert. Sleep is an active process and isn't the same as not being conscious.

That being said, I don't know if gabapentin changes sleeping brain waves, but if you find that it doesn't, then you should be more confident than you are avoiding the "horrible effect" that the drugs that DO change the sleeping brain waves have.

 

[GenXguy]

There will no doubt be posts telling you how bad sleep drugs are and someone will no doubt write that gabatpentin will have some horrible effect on me down the road. Those people never had to go to work on three hours sleep, or drive long distances, or have to apologize to their spouse for being so irritable all due to a sleep disorder.

Agreed! It's easy for someone to say that when they don't need medication to help sleep. I was once one of those people just a few years ago. Not being able to sleep is even worse, and when many hours of reseach on sleep hygiene and tips doesn't do the trick, you often need medication. Lack of sleep can increase chances of various illnesses and cognitive decline. Even an hourly time change twice a year has a bad effect on some people.

When taking medication regularly, to avoid long term cognitive decline, it's best to take meds which are not on the Anticholinergic Burden Scale, or preferably a 1 rather than 2 or 3. Gabapentin and Zolpidem (Ambien) aren't on it, which is good. Neither are the newer DORA sleep meds. But, common OTC drugs like Diphenhydramine and Doxylamine (used in Unisom & many others) as well as prescription drugs Hydroxyzine, Phenergan, and TCA (Tricyclic) antidepressants are rated the highest (3) on the scale, which means they are the highest risk on the scale.

https://www.acbcalc.com/medicines

 

[Koolau]

I have had insomnia all of my adult life, starting in college and continuing into retirement. The weird thing is, I fall alseep immediately, but I ALWAYS wake up around 1 or 2 am and cannot fall back to sleep. There were many days when I was operating with only 3 or 4 hours sleep. I tried every type of prescription sleep aid. One doctor even gave me time released ones in order to help me sleep through the night without wakup. Nothing, and I mean nothing worked. I also tried natural sleep aids such as melatonin, etc. but no dice. Please note, I do not wake up because I have to go the bathroom, have nightmares, etc. Then about two years ago I went to a dermatologist to look at a skin lesion. He said move your neck and I said "I can't, I have arthritis of the neck." He said "if I remember correctly, you have insomnia also". I said "yes, indeed". He said I have just the the thing for both the neck arthritis and insomnia: Gabapentin. He wrote me a prescrption for 300mg pills and said take 1 or 2 a half our before bedtime. I can honestly say that nothing has improved my sleeep like Gapapentin. In the rare times I do wake up at night I fall back to sleep in five minutes. Plus it relieves my neck arthritis. I now get my prescrption from a neurologist who fully agreed with my dermatologist about the drug. For a while I thought that it was causing blurred vision but when I went to the eye surgeon he said it was cataracts which have since been corrected.

I used gabapentin for a back problem for a while. It helped but sort of buzzed me (fogged, really) during the day. But I did take more than 300 mg. per day. I'd never heard of the stuff, but was really thankful for the pain relief until I finally had surgical intervention.

I DID notice it helped me sleep!

 

[Sabaidee]

My mom is 94 and has long had problems sleeping. To her detriment, she also watches a news channel habitually. She saw a “vitamin” advertised for sleep. I do my best to warn her about snake oil sales pitches on television and elsewhere. She says “but this one has been advertised for at least 2 years, and the former governor of Arkansas is promoting it”, etc. She does not access the internet so she is vulnerable to these marketing ploys, not that access to internet makes us any less vulnerable.

It took me seconds to do brief research on this politician (grifter) and his involvement with this product. I have Power of Attorney, but she has possession of her credit card. In the meantime, I am monitoring for any excessive charge on her credit card. I have explained to her that it sounds fishy, but maybe after she has tried the product for 2 weeks, I can ask her if she has had any improvement in her sleep (perhaps placebo effect). She is on a variety of meds, and previously was being prescribed sleeping medication for quite some time, so I will contact her physician to see if that is still on her list of meds.

The product she bought is “a garden variety herbal remedy of no proven value”.

 

[GenXguy]

My mom is 94 and has long had problems sleeping. To her detriment, she also watches a news channel habitually. She saw a “vitamin” advertised for sleep. I do my best to warn her about snake oil sales pitches on television and elsewhere. She says “but this one has been advertised for at least 2 years, and the former governor of Arkansas is promoting it”, etc.

I remember seeing that commercial from time to time in our break room at work, never at home. I think Dan Marino was another figure in the advertising. I've never seen anyone outside of those commercials actually say it worked, and I think it contained some common supplements that I had tried individually with no success.

 

[Sabaidee]

That’s the best way to make the point - you know anybody that’s had success with this product?

 

[GenXguy]

That’s the best way to make the point - you know anybody that’s had success with this product?

Never heard from anyone who took it, but even if someone reported success, it could be the placebo effect. That placebo effect never worked for me. I tried various supplements that I thought might work, and they were always ineffective. I don't even feel like OTC sleep meds, Hydroxyzine, or Trazodone have helped at all in the last couple years when I've given them a try.

 

[maxq]

Interesting thread to me. Anyone tried Lunesta (Eszoplicone) after trying Ambien? Ambien is very effective at helping me get to sleep, and I take half a 5mg tablet 3 or 4 times a month. However, it doesn't keep me asleep and I wake up after perhaps 5 hours at most. My doc wrote an Rx for Lunesta 2mg, and said it will likely help me sleep longer. I'll probably pick up the Rx and give it a try.


For those who mentioned sublingual use of low-dose Ambien, is that a specific form of the medicine, or do you just split the pill and stick a piece under the tongue? Does it make it faster-acting than swallowing the pill?

 

[GenXguy]

Interesting thread to me. Anyone tried Lunesta (Eszoplicone) after trying Ambien? Ambien is very effective at helping me get to sleep, and I take half a 5mg tablet 3 or 4 times a month. However, it doesn't keep me asleep and I wake up after perhaps 5 hours at most. My doc wrote an Rx for Lunesta 2mg, and said it will likely help me sleep longer. I'll probably pick up the Rx and give it a try.

I never tried Lunesata. I've heard people complain about a metallic taste that it leaves you with, but my reason is that I don't usually need medication at bedtime, only later after I wake up, so I would rather have something that hits a higher potency more quickly and clears out more quickly leaving me less groggy in the morning. So I stick with Ambien, sometimes taking a small dose at 5 AM or later in the morning. If you're taking before bedtime every night, Lunesta may be a better choice. I've seen reviews go both ways.

For those who mentioned sublingual use of low-dose Ambien, is that a specific form of the medicine, or do you just split the pill and stick a piece under the tongue? Does it make it faster-acting than swallowing the pill?

There is a sublingual form called Intermezzo, which is more expensive, but what I do is use a pill cutter to cut up a 10 mg Ambien tablet into 7 to 8 pieces. I let a piece dissolve under my tongue. It's bitter, but I actually like it because I associate that bitterness with getting a dose of medication to give me sleep as the bitterness fades away. Yes, it should absorb and take effect more quickly than swallowing. Sometimes I'm asleep within 20 minutes. I haven't swallowed an Ambien pill in over 2 years. I do the the sublingual dose(s) almost every night going on for many months and have been taking it for over 2 years. I'll take 1 to 2 pieces in a night, sometimes back to back if needed, so I'm taking in the 1 mg to 3 mg range overnight each night, as needed.

There was one other person on this forum that has posted to this thread and previously mentioned splitting up Ambien tablets like I do, and they were using the standard Ambien tablets also, not Intermezzo.
https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f38/good-natural-sleep-aid-113480-4.html#post2754954