What does it mean to be a professional?

[Al in Ohio]

ERD50 you have several responses to my post but they are hidden, hence my lack of return correspondence. I make a point of not “unhiding” posts of users blocked years ago or recently. Unfortunately there does not seem to be a way that the forum provides a means to let responders know who can see their posts or not.

 

[Al in Ohio]

I remember reading a long time ago that the only true professions were medicine (I suppose that would include dentistry), the law, teaching, the military and the ministry. My memory is somewhat fuzzy about the details but it had something to do with the fact these fields were more a way of life/a total commitment than just a job. Not saying I agree with this, just throwing out another viewpoint I ran across.

It was Doctors, lawyers and Engineers ( some then added Indian Chief to some song or something).

 

[Turbo29]

Not taking sides here, but an internet search led to this link https://ieeeusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/EngineerTitle1119.pdf

Interesting, it lists "Professional Engineer," "Licensed Engineer," and "Registered Engineer" as protected titles. It does not state that "Engineer" by itself is protected.

 

[skyking1]

That was my take as well. I've been an operating engineer for 32 years, in a union that was formed in 1897. I don't have a piece of lumber up my nether regions about it either

 

[Turbo29]

However upon looking at my state's laws I find:


ARS §32-101


10. “Engineer” means a person who, by reason of special knowledge of the mathematical and physical sciences and the principles and methods of engineering analysis and design acquired by professional education and practical experience, is qualified to practice engineering and is registered as a professional engineer pursuant to this chapter [emphasis mine].

 

[Al in Ohio]

Interesting, it lists "Professional Engineer," "Licensed Engineer," and "Registered Engineer" as protected titles. It does not state that "Engineer" by itself is protected.

IEEE is a trades organization. They put out standards and professional related guidelines, not legal requirements. Any legal jurisdiction can choose to take a trades org standard into law, under advisement or go a step further. A trade org is not a governmental agency.

I told you I was an expert in this. Obviously no one believes me. I’m out.

 

[travelover]

..........I told you I was an expert in this. Obviously no one believes me. I’m out.

Which brings up another question. What is an Expert? Is there a legal definition or an Association of Experts? Can I be prosecuted or sued if I claim to be an Expert and I don't meet the legal qualifications?

 

[ERD50]

Which brings up another question. What is an Expert? Is there a legal definition or an Association of Experts? Can I be prosecuted or sued if I claim to be an Expert and I don't meet the legal qualifications?

For me, an "expert" is someone willing to stand up to legitimate challenges to their statements, not someone who puts their head in the sand (or posters on ignore). And then uses the logical fallacy of "appeal to authority" and takes their football home.

Oh well, I had "Engineer (I,II, Senior, Staff)" on my business card, and they paid me for it. That's good enough for me!

-ERD50

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

That’s what I had implied in the previous post when someone claimed I was contradicting myself. They misunderstood or misread my statement. And yes many companies wrongly use the term Engineer in some job titles. It doesn’t make it lawful. It means many (usually smaller companies with untrained HR staff) simply are wrong and breaking the law. I am not claiming I think I know these facts. I know these facts 100% to be accurate. I know the legalities of using the term Engineer and Professional Engineer completely. It used to be my job to know these rules. I was involved in more than one case of investigation of non engineers using the term engineer without proper credentials. All were punished. For every one that gets caught, 10 fly under the radar. Most states have a website and quarterly magazine for professional engineers. The last two pages always involve legal proceedings of those either producing sealed engineering drawings without a PE license or using the term Engineer without proper credentials.

In short as stated previously but with fewer words for those who need things simplified:

Engineer: Graduate of any accredited Engineering program with a BS in Engineering

Professional Engineer: Same as above plus passed 8 hour Fundamentals in Engineering test, plus 4 years direct supervision by a PE ( hands on the job experience), plus pass another 8 hour PE exam that is based solely on problem solving in your particular field of Engineering AND general problems with all steps written out and explained in essay open response fashion, plus 5 Sealed recommendation letters from current or former coworkers who are all licensed engineers.

Well, I can tell that you aren't "learned" in the law or you would know that anything that has "legal" attached to it is usually anything but CLEAR and SETTLED.

Ha ha. Actually the term Engineer in two titles previously common in the workforce but now pretty much phased out were allowed and exempt from the current legal term.

Those were “ Locomotive Engineer” and Steam Boiler Engineer”. I think neither of those positions are in use today, but not sure what the modern title of the guy who drives the train is. I think now it’s just Engine Operator or something like that.

Well, I guess all the former flight ENGINEERS that have gone off and become train ENGINEERS (I know quite a few) would take issue with your assertion. As would BNSF...

https://jobs.bnsf.com/go/Transportation-Train-Crew/400967/

Train crews consist of a locomotive ENGINEER and conductor. Crews collectively operate about 1,600 trains per day, moving them across the rail network.

Nonetheless, as a professional retiree I have determined that I am speaking into the wind and well...with that, I'm out.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

However upon looking at my state's laws I find:


ARS §32-101


10. “Engineer” means a person who, by reason of special knowledge of the mathematical and physical sciences and the principles and methods of engineering analysis and design acquired by professional education and practical experience, is qualified to practice engineering and is registered as a professional engineer pursuant to this chapter [emphasis mine].

That has no context. Definitions that are set forth in a regulation is used to clarify in that regulations "context", so it doesn't cover every iteration of the term "engineer" in all forms.

 

[rodi]

Titles are often reappropriated. My husband was a licensed architect in several states. He had a stamp and could seal drawings.

There title architect is a protected title in the state of California. Yet every software company seems to disregard this. When he would be looking for a new job the job search for architect turned up 90% software jobs. I tried explaining that to hr at the tech company I worked for and they didn't care.

California is so strict he can't use the term "retired architect" because he let his license lapse when he retired. To be able to say he's a retired architect he would have had to pay extra money to the state licensing board. He can say he worked as an architect until retired, but legally he can't say he's a retired architect.

I never got my PE after getting my BSEE and MSE (abt). That's why I call myself a retired nerd or retired enginerd.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=BPC&sectionNum=5536.

 

[Koolau]

If you don't think an engineer is a professional, let's see you run a damn train.

Probably told this story before: My HS buddy Earl was in my 11th grade Trig. class. Several of us were chatting before class when Earl shared that he had a test average in the course of 14%. Someone asked Earl what he was planning for a c@reer. Without hesitation, Earl answered "an Engineer." All listening were incredulous. The follow-up question was "what kind, Earl?" Earl's answer: "Choo-Choo." You had to know Earl, so YMMV.

 

[MC Rider]

If you don't think an engineer is a professional, let's see you run a damn train.

I would not try, but would love a ride along in the engine.


Just, Casey Jones you better watch your speed.

 

[Turbo29]

Just, Casey Jones you better watch your speed.

 

[mountainsoft]

To me a "professional" is someone who gets paid for a particular skill or unique knowledge.

For example, if someone pays me $5 to sweep a floor, or $20 to mow a yard, that doesn't make me a professional. Virtually anyone can do these jobs, no specific skills are needed.

However, if I have developed specialized floor cleaning techniques, or excel at maintaining, fertilizing, and improving landscapes, I'm probably a professional. Especially if I have previous satisfied customers.

You don't need a college degree, expensive tools, or fancy clothes to be a professional, and it has nothing to do with the amount of money you earn. A professional simply gets paid for a skill or knowledge the average person does not have.

Of course, just because you are a professional doesn't mean you perform quality work. I've seen some really shoddy work that was done by "professionals", and really amazing work done by "amateurs".

For the most part, professionalism comes with experience. I wouldn't consider a new college graduate with a bachelors degree a professional their first day on the job. But a single mom with a GED who started her own plumbing business six years ago would certainly be a professional. Or a young guy who fiddled with computers as a hobby and decided to turn it into a job could certainly be considered a professional. They both developed skills that others are willing to pay for.

 

[travelover]

..........Of course, just because you are a professional doesn't mean you perform quality work. I've seen some really shoddy work that was done by "professionals", and really amazing work done by "amateurs".
.......

For example the Titanic and the Ark.

 

[skyking1]

I would not try, but would love a ride along in the engine.


Just, Casey Jones you better watch your speed.

I paid a few extra $$ for an engine ride in a steam train. I highly recommend it.

 

[dunkelblau]

Titles are often reappropriated. My husband was a licensed architect in several states. He had a stamp and could seal drawings.

There title architect is a protected title in the state of California. Yet every software company seems to disregard this. When he would be looking for a new job the job search for architect turned up 90% software jobs. I tried explaining that to hr at the tech company I worked for and they didn't care.

Looks like the job labeling controversy has been brewing for decades thanks in part to attitudes about this in silicon valley:
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/programmers-should-not-call-themselves-engineers/414271/
The U.S. Bureau of Labor and Statistics (BLS) calls the “engineers” who work at Google and Uber and Facebook and its ilk “Computer Programmers” or “Software Developers.” The former write code, the latter design systems. Nobody has to follow the BLS’s definitions, and you can understand why more grandiose titles would be appealing to Silicon Valley disruptors.

Meanwhile Google is offering a "Professional Data Engineer" certification
https://cloud.google.com/certification/data-engineer
that is not to be confused with a "Professional Engineer" license. Wonder if NSPE had anything to say about this?

 

[Koolau]

For example the Titanic and the Ark.

Heh, heh, Noah was only 2nd in command.

 

[Spanky]

Does it mean you have to be a doctor or lawyer?

No, why excluding all other professions?