What would you do?

[RetiredHappy]

One additional thought and it is likely going to be too late now. The 9 year-old has 2 coke head parents and other behaviors, who are bad role models. We don't know if they are still doing it or not, but if she were younger, I would have sought custody of the grandkid.

 

[Katiek]

I don't have kids, or grandchildren, do my views may be naive, but I think it's important to try to maintain some relationship with the grandchildren. It sounds like you two are important stabilizing influences in their life.



You say the 9 year old only visits for things and doesn't love you for you, but it sounds like she's got a very chaotic life. It's natural that she'd seek security, and I bet you have more of a positive influence on her than you see now.



But it also sounds like you want some peace and distance. Maybe you could move a smaller distance away, so that you're not there every day, but are close enough to visit the grandchildren. Or, you could stay where you are, but arrange to travel for a few months of the year. There are lots of possible options, but i do think it's important to maintain the relationship with the grandchildren, but that doesn't mean you have to be there every day.

 

[Jenna]

Don't be so hard on yourself. There are links between ADHD, low dopamine levels, altered gut bacteria, and, well, a lot of the issues you mentioned. Low dopamine can cause mood issues, aggressive behavior and a lack of motivation. One study showed that people with low levels of dopamine stopped focusing on their goals and acted out aggressively. We're all more products of our gut bacteria than most people realize. If you work with a family counselor, perhaps you could start with this issue and put some incentives in place to encourage your son and family to seek medical help in this area. Healthy groceries and easy to prepare meals also might help, can't hurt. [FONT=&quot][/FONT]

I second this. Danny Roddy has some excellent video podcasts about this. Thyroid disorders can be a huge problem as well and are often not detectable with blood tests. Broda Barnes books would be helpful. Paying for a health coach would be money towards a better future for your children but I would absoluteley have boundaries with them. We charged our son's rent and increased it every year so that by the age we wanted them to move out, it was equal to a studio apartment in our area. We wanted to help them adjust to paying bills. We did not need their money but they needed to exercise their financial muscles. It worked.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

I second this. Danny Roddy has some excellent video podcasts about this. Thyroid disorders can be a huge problem as well and are often not detectable with blood tests. Broda Barnes books would be helpful. Paying for a health coach would be money towards a better future for your children but I would absoluteley have boundaries with them. We charged our son's rent and increased it every year so that by the age we wanted them to move out, it was equal to a studio apartment in our area. We wanted to help them adjust to paying bills. We did not need their money but they needed to exercise their financial muscles. It worked.

A health coach is a good idea.

Related links:

The Gut Microbiome and Substance Abuse Disorder - Addiction and substance use research has seen renewed enthusiasm with a focus on the innate gut microbiota. Numerous studies have proposed a connection between the gut microbiota and the CNS via the gut–brain axis, providing a mechanism by which these microbes influence the host. Often drug use is associated with dysbiosis of the gut microbiome, and these changes may be critical to the establishment and maintenance of addiction by altering signals between the gut and the brain. Thus, a probiotic intervention has garnered much interest as a novel form of therapy for SUD. Recent evidence shows promising effects of probiotics in treating other mental disorders, including anxiety and depression, both of which are often co-morbid with SUD.."
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2021.725500/full

Do you gut microbes affect your brain motivation? ....Moreover, it has been reported that perturbations in gut microbe diversity and richness influence serotonergic, GABAergic, noradrenergic, and dopaminergic neurotransmission. Among these, dopamine is regarded as a main regulator of cognitive functions such as decision making, attention, memory, motivation, and reward. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31098656/

 

[Teacher Terry]

It’s very difficult to do tough love but ultimately your only choice. My middle son has used drugs off and on since 18 and he is now 45. When he was in his 20’s I let him live with me, got him into treatment, gave him money, etc. It’s a agonizing way to live. He has been in and out of prison because of drugs.

When he is clean we are supportive by talking to him on the phone, visiting, etc. Unfortunately it has never lasted longer than a year. He has been homeless now for the past 4 years. I will not fly out to visit him unless he has a job and place to live. Luckily he doesn’t have any children. Your only problem is your younger son and not the one with disabilities.

 

[Stormy Kromer]

It's amazing how many families are affected with someone with an addiction. It's all I've know for the last 45 years. It wont get better on its own and the surest way to continue it is to enable the addict financially.

 

[38Chevy454]

I can only offer compassion to OP OldandGrey. I have no kids and no real direct experience with family in a similar situation. I can only say that (this might sound harsh) that you need to look in the mirror and see why the problem persists. You are enabling the worthless kid. He and his wife are drug addicts, that is their only motivator in life. So you paying for bills and providing things is only giving them more money for drugs and supporting that life. You are doing nothing to break that cycle and routine.

Tough love by cutting off the enabling support is the only solution. I will play counselor and say that your desire to move far away is really your inner self knowing that you need to get away because you are not able at this time to do the tough love required if you are next door and see it every day.

Sorry to say, but your son will only have a chance to turn his life around if you cut him out of your support. Both financially and emotionally. Yes it is easier said than done.

 

[jollystomper]

When we try to reason with our son his immediate reaction is “I never asked you to do anything!”

If this is your son's response, my suggestion is that you honor his wishes and stop doing anything.

As others have said, I can only offer compassion. Every story is different.

Tough love is... well, tough. From what I see, they are not going to listen you, perhaps even if they hit bottom. Unfortunately the only thing that might change them is peers who start pointing out these things to them. At that age they are likely to respond more to peers than to parents.

We had one some hit bottom and end up in jail for almost 2 years. We could have spent the money on lawyers to keep him out, but our attitude was always "you do the crime, you do the time", and to make an exception for our child would have been hypocrisy. It was until fellow inmates found out about his upbringing as started making statements like "your parents are still married, they love each other, they gave you a good home, they paid for your education, they did not abuse you... what the h**l are you doing here?" That he started to realize that his situation was more of his making. It took close to 7 years from his slide down until he contacted us out of the blue to say he wanted to establish a relationship again. Those were a tough 7 years, but in the long run it was worth it. Now he is doing well, married to a wonderful woman, with 2 children.

But that is just one anecdote. Sadly all tough love cases do not necessarily go that way, particularly if drugs are a factor. There are no guarantees. The decision comes down to what will give you more peace of mind - continuing down this track, or going the tough love route, knowing that regardless of the outcome, you making them accountable for their own actions and them dealing with the consequences is the right thing to do. I wish you the best.

 

[Act2]

When one realizes that their adult child is taking advantage of them and that the parent is enabling continued lack of self-sufficiency by pouring money into a leaky bucket situation, it is not easy to make the tough decisions that present themselves in a way that is objectively sensible. But it is important to realize that not to decide is to decide. Continuing on as in the past is a decision, just as changing trajectory is a decision. It’s easier in the short-term to keep on the same path (with the same results), but it is still a decision.

I have a friend with an adult child 40+ who takes advantage of my friend, his elderly mother, by always having a reason he needs her to pay for considerable parts of his expenses. He is educated but not motivated. He does have long term health issues but has chosen to have several children and a non-working spouse. Elderly Mom pays to support this situation. She is not wealthy. We (friend and I) had a long talk and the mother is aware what is happening and is aware that her support of him is coming at a high potential cost to her retirement security (although she believes she will be ok in that regard) and is contributing to the delay in the adult child’s independence. But she chooses to do so. She feels people are judging her because it is objectively unwise to do what she is doing. And they are, and it is. But, as she points out, she is aware of all that and has chosen to do this because it is her choice to have this particular kind of relationship with her son, while wishing it would get better and knowing that it won’t. I believe the presence of grandchildren and the fear of being cut off from them is a big part of her decision.

I tell her that she is an adult, it is her money and her retirement security, and her son, and wise or unwise no one can make the choice for her. She knows I think it is unwise and I know that she owns her decision.

She is competent, so she gets to decide. Competency does not always mean making objectively wise decisions. It means making fully informed decisions and owning the result.

 

[pb4uski]

... We live next door to our youngest son and his family. They are both 34 years old. They have 1 daughter 9 years old who if not for Covid would be here every day, however she really doesn’t care about us, only what we give her things I am sad to say. He works half the time, several DWI’s and she lays around all day and does nothing. We own the home they live in and it’s a total wreck.

Our oldest son lives 2 doors down from us, in another home we own. He is disabled due to severe medical issues not of his accord. He draws SSDI and he pays us an amount he can pay us every month. He is separated from his wife but his children are very close to us and come over every other weekend, and they usually spend at least one night with nana and papa when they are with our son. They are 15 and 11. ...

My sympathies on the difficult situation that you have. Our son was troubled for a while as a teenager.... but is doing well now... has a steady job and supports himself but still not the life that we had in mind for him, but he is really a good and kind guy.

It's ridicuous that two able bodied 34 yo adults refuse to work. I assume that if they did work that they could support themselves since you are paying for their housing. I think you need to give them fair warning that the gravy train is ending. They can continue to live in the house but their other living expenses they need to cover from working. They will likely fail but that is not your fault. Since their 9 yo doesn't give you the time of day then you can chose to either let her live with her delinquent parents in poverty or you can notify child serveces and see if they will remove her from her parents home and place her with you or in foster care. I know this all sounds harsh, but if you don't take some drastic action then the situation will never change and the 9 yo will end up just like her parents and you'll be supporting her for the rest of her life too.

It sounds like the oldest son is supporting himself between SSDI and discounted housing that you are providing. Since he is unable to work but not of his own accord you might consider setting up an account sufficient to provide for the costs of his housing that you are paying for with him as the beneficiary so if something happened to you then his discounted housing would be continued.

Even if you do move, you can have the 15 yo fly to visit you frequently... at least until boys come into the picture.

 

[Koolau]

In addition to tough love and professional counseling, I'd suggest finding an attorney to see what you can do to protect your granddaughter should the tough love cause her too many issues. It might be necessary to remove her from the situation for a while. None of this is fun or easy. You're asking the right questions and I'm guessing you know what to do already. Do remember that all our "advise" is free so treat it that way since YMMV.

God bless you as you make some tough decisions.

 

[isisdave]

DW is a retired marriage and family counselor. When she was licensed, they still had oral exams. This is what she used to call a "kitchen sink" vignette, as there are so many problems to be addressed.

Moving won't help. You'll just be dealing with it remotely, which, if you still own the real estate, will just be harder.

You should have, by now, established a plan for the disabled son. A special needs trust of some kind maybe? Perhaps you've already done that. See a lawyer that specialized in those kinds of things.

Whatever you plan to do now, you could make a backup plan for 9 years from now, when the youngest is 18. That will give you more options, such as moving and offering her a place with you. I wouldn't mention that to anyone before then, though.

Good luck!

 

[Librarian]

Tough situation

Let me start by saying my wife and I are financially sound with a large sale upcoming that will allow us to move virtually anywhere in the world. We are torn as we live next door to both our sons. We own each of their homes outright. Side by side by side. Our has a small mortgage for tax purposes. We are 62 and 61 and in decent health, could be better but oh well! So here is our issue. Please feel free to comment good or bad. We aren’t like children we can take advice regardless.

We live next door to our youngest son and his family. They are both 34 years old. They have 1 daughter 9 years old who if not for Covid would be here every day, however she really doesn’t care about us, only what we give her things I am sad to say. He works half the time, several DWI’s and she lays around all day and does nothing. We own the home they live in and it’s a total wreck.

Our oldest son lives 2 doors down from us, in another home we own. He is disabled due to severe medical issues not of his accord. He draws SSDI and he pays us an amount he can pay us every month. He is separated from his wife but his children are very close to us and come over every other weekend, and they usually spend at least one night with nana and papa when they are with our son. They are 15 and 11.

We will soon have the means to move either very far away, or close by depending on what we find in a home we will purchase with cash, so we won’t have a mortgage payment again. We have mentioned to them we are thinking of moving away and the 15 year old is begging us to stay. I know how she feels, however once she finds out about boys I’m afraid the love we get from her will fly out the window and we will be stuck here, in our by then late 60’s, with less opportunities due to age related issues.
We have been basically supporting our youngest son since he moved out at 18. He is 34 now and his maturity is still that of a teenager’s. We are tired of buying him cars, paying light bills, water bills etc etc etc at least 75% of the time. We have tried cutting him off but we can’t stand to know our granddaughter will be without food, lights, or a way to go anywhere. Hence our mixed emotions on moving. Sometimes we feel like we can’t live another day here, and then again sometimes we feel like we need to stay to make sure everyone is safe and sound.

Oh we have tried to talk to our youngest son about getting help but he doesn’t listen. He is always willing to help us if we ask him to with things we can no longer do, but he will not keep a job. McDonalds is hiring less than 6 blocks away and he told he he would never work there! Yet he has no money! HELP!

I would love to move to Montana or maybe out of the country. Somewhere like Panama or Poland intrigues me. Other times I want to just move a couple miles away just to be close by, just in case. My wife is good with moving just about anywhere.

My mother just passed 10 days ago. Her grandchildren were her greatest joy.
You will NEVER NEVER regret the time with them.

Now as for the 34YO. My advice. Cut him loose. Give him 3 months. But NO MORE. I know you love him. But you are enabling him. And until you use some tough love with him, he will not attempt to change. He may not anyway. But enabling him is stressful on you--emotionally & financially. I would also tell him that your entire estate will be going to his brother & children unless he shows consistency in the job market.

 

[catii]

Please consider what we did. After our youngest son tried to kill my ex-wife, we had him picked up by the state, that diagnosed him with schizophrenia. He has remained in their care for 22 years, despite their considerable investment in his treatment. I doubt he'll ever come out of their system, but we won't know, because he's cut off all communication. So be it.

Oldest child, a daughter, was simply lazy, & it got worse & worse, until wife & I disinherited her, through the legal system. She went ballistic, but is no longer allowed in our home. She had a son out of wedlock, who has turned out to be a great kid, & we are helping him out directly, with the warning that if his mother gets anything we send, he'll be cut off, too. He's a college sophomore on full scholarship.

Middle child required the most intervention. We were paying for college, until I found out that he had only attended for the first few weeks, & was collecting our financial assistance from a friend who worked there. Got the friend arrested, & cut off our son. His wife divorced him, & left him with our 8yo granddaughter. I drove over, & picked her up, & she lived with us through her college graduation (cum laude). We forced him into the military, in lieu of staying cut off, & he did well. Crashed out a few years later, due to medical problems, but still works for them as a civilian.

So, three kids, with totally-different problems & solutions. Do we feel guilty? Not in the slightest. It's a different world from the one we grew up in, & our kids are just as likely to take advantage of us, as some thug off the street. Wife & I owned our company, so money wasn't a problem, & you sound the same way. My suggestion is to find solutions that work for YOU, then do them, & don't look back. Think out of the box, & run your ideas past your lawyer.

Oh, as far as where to live, choose a location that makes you happy, not anyone else. We now live at least 2500 miles away from kids & grandkids, so if anyone but our daughter wants to see us, they can come out here to Hawaii. Zoom, Skype, text, & email do just fine to keep us in touch, & we don't waste time on social media. You've spent your life supporting them, so retirement should be where you look out for yourself. At least your kids don't have to worry about supporting you. Good luck with wills & trusts - that's our biggest problem! We are NOT going to turn any of them into instant millionaires, when we conk off!

 

[Slater]

Old&Grey
You mentioned large sale upcoming allowing you to move anywhere, is this the sale of your current home or something else
Like pacergal said amongst many of the others...
NC is a nice area from my understanding & overall if youre happy I wouldnt leave due to your sons actions...
Enough is enough & you need to cut him off completely financially.
Not understanding why the move is part of this equation unless you feel its easier to cut him off if they didnt live so close? Do you feel / concerned if you cut-off finances & support he will cause more issues directly toward you? steal, retaliate, etc?
sounds like they have zero reasons to get a job or grow-up....
you have done more than enough, your boy has had more cars at his age than my entire life @ 50...
time to let go!

 

[ivinsfan]

My mother just passed 10 days ago. Her grandchildren were her greatest joy.
You will NEVER NEVER regret the time with them.

Now as for the 34YO. My advice. Cut him loose. Give him 3 months. But NO MORE. I know you love him. But you are enabling him. And until you use some tough love with him, he will not attempt to change. He may not anyway. But enabling him is stressful on you--emotionally & financially. I would also tell him that your entire estate will be going to his brother & children unless he shows consistency in the job market.

Curious how you think OP can see the 9 YO and cut off Dad at the same time.

 

[Jerry1]

Curious how you think OP can see the 9 YO and cut off Dad at the same time.

Yeah, that isn’t going to happen. The dad will cut the grandparents off from the kids immediately.

 

[Slater]

Curious how you think OP can see the 9 YO and cut off Dad at the same time.

Yeah, that isn’t going to happen. The dad will cut the grandparents off from the kids immediately.

I have kids, my mom lives down the street...
If my home was a horrible situation, no electricity, etc....
I wouldnt keep my kid from hanging-out at the grand parents house....
But I see what you guys are saying.
34 needs to stand on his own, seeing the grandkids shouldnt be part of the decision here.
I know easier said than done but it is what it is at this point.
Would imagine O&G knows what the overall job market looks like in the town, is micky d's the only option,
if theres more appealing options, everyone is hiring, etc...
its obvious he doesnt want to work cuz he doesnt have to...

 

[eytonxav]

That is a tough situation for sure. It sounds like you need a plan to help you and your wife and one to wean the kids off dependency. Would it be possible for you gradually separate from them by traveling more and/or getting a vacation house out of the area and thereby allow them to become more self sufficient? Counseling also might be something all of you could benefit from.

 

[Sanbenito1]

My family also has 3 adjacent homes, which are amazing so our senior relatives and friends can have community in their later years. It does sound like you are primarily trying to escape your layabout son; have you considered renting your own home and using the money to rent in other areas and ‘test the waters’ before selling? Travel to Poland and rent a home there, see if you like it? Because there’s no going back after you sell. A property manager will make renting your home less stressful, and you can always move back if the situation changes. For the younger son, you may want to let him know you are going to start decreasing his “allowance” over time, perhaps such that when the daughter is 18 it goes to zero (beyond the free use house)? And then stick to it, because the first time he threatens/cries and you give in, he’ll know that he only has to threaten/cry enough the next time and you’ll cave. I had friends kick their grown man-children out of their homes and in the long run their (the parents) stress levels were much improved although it was a battle at first (one had to change her locks, and then called the cops when he broke in to steal her food).

 

[LivelyFL]

If it were me, I would sell and move to Montana or wherever is good for you. Or you could sell and travel the world for one year. Your situation sounds stressful. Your children are not listening to your guidance. And they don't have to; they are adults. But there's an old saying: When the student is ready, a teacher will appear.

 

[tenant13]

I’m not really sure why not just keep financing your kids? You can seemingly afford it. It’s only money - would you rather spend it on your admittedly imperfect children or leave it to some charity? I mean it’s not like the kids have other people’s genes or were raised by a pack of wolves. And they didn’t ask to be born. I’d say it’s on you.

As to moving, I would only recommend moving to a place that you actually know and love and not just away from your kids. Go somewhere for 3-6 months first. Like Portugal: good food, good wine, great weather, nice people who mostly speak English - what’s not to like?

 

[bomdia]

My sister adapted

While my sister had a dental assistant job and substantial financial assistance (pay rent etc), she lived pay check to pay check. When my mother passed and my father a few years later, I became the executor of their modest estate. My sister ran through her share in about a year. When she ran out and she asked me for money, I told her I wouldn’t give her support unless it was a health or other emergency. When she heard that she hung up on me and that’s the last I heard from her - despite reaching out to her on holidays, birthdays etc. Our estrangement hurts, but she is still in one piece somehow adapting to life without my parents’ subsidies.

 

[old medic]

Welcome

Our hearts can relate to your situation, Unfortunately have similar here... Both in my Sister (48) and our Son (35). My Sister has totally used Our mother, staying at her house, has totally trashed it. (Actually the 2nd one) Always needing something. It infuriates me on how Mom just keeps enabling her. Our Son is living in an Old camper on that property, mad at us because we wont help him anymore. He is collecting disability due to life long medical issue, but his life choices have made it severely worse. He has a 10 YO son that stays every other weekend with him. He is full of great ideas and plans, but does nothing about them. He has not had a car in about 4 years, has wrecked everyone hes had... including 2 of ours. he rather bum rides and borrow a car... ( YUP my Mothers).

My advice is Tough Love is your only option with your young son. the longer you enable him the worse it will become. Establish a fund for your GD, so she has a better chance as she gets older. (all 3 of them)
Your older son seems to have his stuff together and doing what he can.

We sold our home a few years ago and faced similar, and we stayed close, and bought a rundown place, planning to build a garage with living quarters to have has a homebase to travel (RV) from. Drama is still here but not directly underfoot. We get to have the GS around, and take him on trips... best of both worlds.

Good Luck

 

[Lienlord]

I work with an older lady who had already retired from the State. She supports worthless children & her grandchildren with her pension & current salary. One morning she mentioned all of the expenses she was paying for her children (rent, car repair, vet bill). I asked her sincerely what would happen if she got hit by a bus today. She honestly didn't know how they would make it. I told her they would be forced to figure out a solution and they would make it. She wasn't sure if she believed that, but wasn't willing to find out!