Whole house generator and propane supply

[SecondAttempt]

I am considering installing a whole home generator with a fairly large propane tank. We've had several multiday power outage over the last few years. I could probably go with a portable generator to just handle a few things like refrigerator and freezer but the whole home solution I found is only about 2-3x more than the minimum solution and has an automated transfer switch for a mostly seamless solution. I realize there would be additional costs for installation and pads for the generator and a propane tank. I can do the pads myself and installation I know a licensed electrician who can do for a fee.

I haven't done the calculations yet but I'm thinking a 250-500 gal propane tank, in part because I am in a remote area and propane deliveries might be expensive. So I would want to minimize delivery frequency.

I'd also like the tank to supply some outdoor tiki torches (I'm in Hawaii) and be available to refill my grill tank(s). I know I could hard plumb the grill but its location makes that challenging.

So, a few questions:

Does anyone refill small tanks from a larger tank at home? Is the equipment hard to find? I mostly do exchange now but used to get refills and I think I can handle the process if I have the right equipment.

How much would I expect to pay for a 250 gal or 500 gal tank?

Anyone have experience with a generator with ATS? The brand I am looking at is Generac but there are others I would consider.

I'm mostly choosing propane for safety to avoid storing a couple of hundred gallons of gas to cover an extended outage and having to refill manually often during the outage. Is this a bad choice? I do not want an underground storage tank!

 

[old medic]

We pay around $75 to fill a 100Lb tank, and theres a store that charges $3.99 a gallon. As for delivery at our old house, there was no extra charge, but if you didn't use 2 full tanks in a year, then there was a lease fee. as for refilling a tank at home, I doubt its worth the cost unless you do ALOT of grilling.

 

[Jerry1]

Anyone have experience with a generator with ATS? The brand I am looking at is Generac but there are others I would consider.

I have a Generac with an automatic transfer switch but I don't use the ATS as designed. I leave it turned off (manual). That way, when the power goes out, I have to start the generator manually. I do this because I like to be in view of the equipment when it's turning on in case there are any issues. Then, when I start the generator, I put it on auto so that when the power comes back on, the ATS automatically shuts off the generator.

Doing this also means that I test the generator manually. I don't have it automatically start and run every week. I run it once per month and I check the oil and visually inspect the unit before I start it.

I'm mostly choosing propane for safety to avoid storing a couple of hundred gallons of gas to cover an extended outage and having to refill manually often during the outage. Is this a bad choice? I do not want an underground storage tank!

I totally agree with using propane. Storing gasoline is a project in its own right. Not only does it have safety implications, gasoline deteriorates over time.

 

[Tetto]

I have a Generac system at my house- 250 gallon tank and completely automatic. I’d never consider anything else now after having to manually connect the gasoline generator we had. Now I worry about nothing- completely automatic operation and will run for about 7 days continuously if we lose power that long. Nice setup

 

[Jerry1]

I have a Generac system ... will run for about 7 days continuously if we lose power that long. Nice setup

Check your manual. I wondered about continuous operation and the manual and an email to Generac said to shut down every 24hrs and check the oil. Good plan for me because a lose about a 1/3 quart every day running.

 

[DrRoy]

From what I have seen, the difference in cost from a portable generator to the full in home generator is more like 10X.

 

[sengsational]

Does anyone refill small tanks from a larger tank at home?

I don't know for absolute sure, but I can't imagine any investment in equipment could possibly pay back. You'd need a pump to move the liquid propane from your big tank to the small tank. Absolutely no way you'd fill enough small tanks in your lifetime to cover the cost of the installation of the fittings and the cost of the pump.

 

[OldShooter]

This ground has been plowed before. Talk to your LP suppliers, to the genset seller, and local electricians. For reference we have free delivery with a 200 gallon minimum. We just got a winter prepayment offer at $1.94/gallon. At our old house I had 13.5 kW manual transfer generator fed from 100 pound tank. As I recall a tank lasted a couple of days not running the generator at night. I kept a full spare next to the in-use tank and just swapped the connection when necessary.

 

[Stormy Kromer]

I'd go with a 500 gallon tank. If you're going to invest in a system like this you don't want a low fuel supply to be an issue.

I heat with LP and just filled my 500 g. tank for $1.84 a gallon, delivered.

If you have an LP dealer they likely have an annual fill plan. They'd rather deal with a 500 gallon tank once a year than a 250 gallon tank twice a year.

 

[harley]

We have a 15 y.o whole house Generac, with the ATS. The ATS works great, never had a problem with it. Coincidentally, we just had a power outage last night, about 5 hours. And we've had a few per year as long as we've lived here. We've only had one extended outage, so I don't think we've paid for it with saved groceries, but it is pretty nice to be able to see, have AC, flush the toilets, etc. I think it was well worth the investment. We have a 500 gal underground tank, and get it filled once or twice/year. We also cook with the propane. We have a gas fireplace, but it's been turned off for at least 10 years.

My biggest issue, since we're snowbirds and leave the house for up to 6 months at a time, is monitoring the generator to make sure it's exercising every week. Sometimes it has a problem that requires a maintenance visit, We don't want it not working while we're away. I think newer generators have a monitoring app option. For mine, I ended up hanging a strap down from the top of the generator. I have a camera in the window above it, so when it's time for it to exercise I just look at the camera and see if the strap gets sucked against the intake grill. Low tech, but it works well.

I never considered filling a tank from the big tank, as I use a charcoal grill. But I agree with everyone else, I don't think you'd ever recover the cost of the equipment needed to be able to do it. Just go to Lowes and do a tank exchange.

 

[ncbill]

For a remote area in Hawaii I'd buy & have installed something like this first (with the two battery option):

https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-powe...-eg4-powerpro-wallmount-battery-9540-pending/

It has inputs for grid, solar, and generator recharging.

Any generator will be more efficient recharging those batteries versus directly running variable house loads.

 

[NW-Bound]

^^^ I was about to suggest something like the above, and to add some solar panels.

In contrast with a whole-house generator, the solar+battery set up provides a benefit even when you do not have an outage. This is particularly true where electricity is as expensive as it is in Hawaii.

And in addition, the battery serves as a buffer and storage, so that if you need to run a generator to supplement the solar panels, the generator does not have to run 24/7. A small portable generator of $500 would be all you need.

 

[skyking1]

I don't know for absolute sure, but I can't imagine any investment in equipment could possibly pay back. You'd need a pump to move the liquid propane from your big tank to the small tank. Absolutely no way you'd fill enough small tanks in your lifetime to cover the cost of the installation of the fittings and the cost of the pump.

It does not require a pump. We have a tank at work that pressure fills the forklift or any other tank we hook up to it. What it requires is a tank on a pad, with a bottom tap and valve. Hook the delivery hose to that with the tank filling fitting.
The pump speeds up the process for commercial filling, but it is not needed.
I don't know what that tank style and availability adds to the cost, nor the hose kit.
I would expect it to be several hundred dollars for both items.

 

[threeonesix]

My biggest issue, since we're snowbirds and leave the house for up to 6 months at a time, is monitoring the generator to make sure it's exercising every week. Sometimes it has a problem that requires a maintenance visit, We don't want it not working while we're away. I think newer generators have a monitoring app option. For mine, I ended up hanging a strap down from the top of the generator. I have a camera in the window above it, so when it's time for it to exercise I just look at the camera and see if the strap gets sucked against the intake grill. Low tech, but it works well.

Generac makes two wifi modules for remote monitoring purposes, part numbers 7169 (4G LTE) and 7170 (personal home wifi) that might interest you. Both are available from Amazon, between $200 - $300. Another benefit besides remote monitoring offered by these devices is firmware upgrades for the generator.

 

[threeonesix]

For a remote area in Hawaii I'd buy & have installed something like this first (with the two battery option):

https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-powe...-eg4-powerpro-wallmount-battery-9540-pending/

It has inputs for grid, solar, and generator recharging.

Any generator will be more efficient recharging those batteries versus directly running variable house loads.

Man, I would love to use solar for this. Unfortunately not all cities allow solar. Where I live you can have solar panels on the ground only (no rooftops) and they cannot be seen from the street. My house faces south and backyard is full of trees, so there's no way I can use solar for anything.

 

[skyking1]

My answer is going to be a two layer approach. I will put the fridge and freezer on a circuit that gets automatically switched to an inverter with some batteries. I will spec that out to last a few days at a minimum.
Then if we decide to go further, a generator solution that does not require automatic run capability. Until I quit tinkering I will have portable gensets and welders in my life.

 

[Stormy Kromer]

I can speak from experience on power outages.

When I was living in NE MN on a 2 mile private road in 2016 we had a terrible blow down. It took 3 of us neighbors over 2 days to clear the road so we could get out. Power lines down everywhere.

All we had was a portable Honda generator to run our fridge and freezer about half of the time everyday.

We were without power for an hour short of a week. We didn't lose any food. We had enough water stored to make it. We had an outhouse and did our cooking on a coleman stove and gas grill. We went to a local lake to take a swim in the evenings. It wasn't fun but we survived.

The biggest thing I could stress is that you have enough generator power to run your fridge and freezer. Enough water. Enough coffee and simple meals to prepare on a grill or coleman stove. You can charge your phones and PC from a small generator.

If you're relying on a portable generator keep at least 24 gallons of 91 premium gas and a quart of oil on hand. Change the gas every 6 months. A good power cord is also a good investment.

I don't plan on washing clothes, running an AC or stove if the power goes out.

Plan for it so it doesn't happen. Been there.

 

[aja8888]

I can speak from experience on power outages.

When I was living in NE MN on a 2 mile private road in 2016 we had a terrible blow down. It took 3 of us neighbors over 2 days to clear the road so we could get out. Power lines down everywhere.

All we had was a portable Honda generator to run our fridge and freezer about half of the time everyday.

We were without power for an hour short of a week. We didn't lose any food. We had enough water stored to make it. We had an outhouse and did our cooking on a coleman stove and gas grill. We went to a local lake to take a swim in the evenings. It wasn't fun but we survived.

The biggest thing I could stress is that you have enough generator power to run your fridge and freezer. Enough water. Enough coffee and simple meals to prepare on a grill or coleman stove. You can charge your phones and PC from a small generator.

If you're relying on a portable generator keep at least 24 gallons of 91 premium gas and a quart of oil on hand. Change the gas every 6 months. A good power cord is also a good investment.

I don't plan on washing clothes, running an AC or stove if the power goes out.

Plan for it so it doesn't happen. Been there.

We are good at this in Texas!

 

[Texas Proud]

For a remote area in Hawaii I'd buy & have installed something like this first (with the two battery option):

https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-powe...-eg4-powerpro-wallmount-battery-9540-pending/

It has inputs for grid, solar, and generator recharging.

Any generator will be more efficient recharging those batteries versus directly running variable house loads.

How long will this manage a house? Being in Hawaii without AC might be awhile but still would like to know...


I would look at a Kohler over a Generac... I did a lot of research on all options and Kohler won... it has a much better engine... can not remember all the stuff but more cooling fins, better rods etc... I did not look at the ATS that much but bet they are the same...


I would always leave it on auto.. I do not know why someone would have a whole house generator and not leave it on auto... lots of power outages happen during a storm... I do not want to go out in the rain and lightning possible in the dark to start up a generator..


I recently had interruption for over 22 hours...



Since you are going propane I would check out the gas usage... I do know that there is a difference but do not know which was better.... but a smaller generator does use less fuel.. so do not oversize what you need..

 

[Texas Proud]

OH... btw, when I go to get my small tanks filled they just fill it from a big tank... no pump... they do open something up for it to fill faster and then close it back using a screwdriver... 20lb does not take long...

 

[Jerry1]

I have a Generac with an automatic transfer switch but I don't use the ATS as designed. I leave it turned off (manual). That way, when the power goes out, I have to start the generator manually. I do this because I like to be in view of the equipment when it's turning on in case there are any issues. Then, when I start the generator, I put it on auto so that when the power comes back on, the ATS automatically shuts off the generator.

Doing this also means that I test the generator manually. I don't have it automatically start and run every week. I run it once per month and I check the oil and visually inspect the unit before I start it.

I would always leave it on auto.. I do not know why someone would have a whole house generator and not leave it on auto... lots of power outages happen during a storm... I do not want to go out in the rain and lightning possible in the dark to start up a generator..


I recently had interruption for over 22 hours...

I mentioned in the post above I like to know what’s going on at start up. Imagine the engine not starting and burning out the starter. The other thing I don’t like about the auto start is when there are brown outs and “flickering” events. The generator starts and stops a few to several times in a short timeframe. Suffice to say, the power grid in my area isn’t great. If I had life essential equipment, I’d take the risk, but I don’t.

As for starting the generator during the storm, at least where I live, they come and go pretty quick. I don’t mind being without power for a bit until things calm down. Then I go out and start the generator.

Having a 22 hour interruption is no fun, but I’ve had two this year, one over 48 hours and one over 72 hours and a couple small ones just for fun.

 

[38Chevy454]

Most all large propane tanks tap off vapor. Not liquid in normal operation. They do have a liquid line that can be accessed to empty the tank for removal, it requires a pump. So the basic answer to your question is no you can't refill small bottles from your home tank. At least not without specialized equipment.

 

[Piper20]

Generac and I’m sure the others have a timer that can be set for how long the power is out before starting. Generac defaults to 5 seconds. I had ours changed to 35 seconds to prevent the nuisance start stops.

 

[skyking1]

Most all large propane tanks tap off vapor. Not liquid in normal operation. They do have a liquid line that can be accessed to empty the tank for removal, it requires a pump. So the basic answer to your question is no you can't refill small bottles from your home tank. At least not without specialized equipment.

I cleared that up farther up the thread. You can indeed fill small bottles without a pump, it just takes longer. I do it at work.

 

[NW-Bound]

OH... btw, when I go to get my small tanks filled they just fill it from a big tank... no pump... they do open something up for it to fill faster and then close it back using a screwdriver... 20lb does not take long...

The 5-gal propane tanks have a small vent at the neck that is opened with a screwdriver. Opening the vent allows propane vapor in the tank to escape to make room for the liquid propane to enter the tank.