are home generators going to be unavoidable in the future?

[anothercog]

I do not use the living room that much, and want to use the lights in that room as "pilot lights" for the grid, so I can check if the grid loses power.

I can do an explicit "grid on/off" indicator, but will need to run independent wires to the power distribution panel. Using the entire room as a pilot light works better.



I guess you do not use electricity for heating. It takes a heck of a lot of solar and battery juice for either heating or cooling.



A single Tesla Powerwall stores about 15 kWh. It's not enough to run a central AC. That's enough for lighting, electronics, a fridge, and a window AC for perhaps 8-10 hours.

Few, if any of my neighbors have AC. It’s generally not needed here (near San Francisco). I have a portable unit for our bedroom I may need 3-5x/year but we haven’t needed to use it all this year (yet).

I think my neighbor mainly got it for his refrigerator and tv but I don’t think the costs were worth it. I could buy a lot of ice for what he paid.

 

[SumDay]

At our prior house, we had little kids and went without power for 8 days after an ice storm. It was obviously horrific. When we downsized our new home had underground power, but we soon learned that doesn't prevent outages. We have a Generac, and are incredibly happy we do. It's kicked on many times. However, I'm guessing a tornado could blow it away, or a wildfire would render it useless. For now, I'm just grateful we have it.

 

[pjigar]

Here's the thing about a gasoline powered generator. Unless the outage is localized to your street or your subdivision, you probably won't be able to easily get more gasoline to fuel it, since the pumps at the gas station need electricity to operate. So you are limited to the gas you have on hand when the outage occurs. This was a huge issue in my area during Hurricane Sandy. https://money.cnn.com/2012/11/01/news/economy/gas-stations-supply-sandy/

We keep a week's supply stored. Long term stored gas is "pure gas" so I don't have to "baby" it.

PS: But your point prompted me to jerry rig a propane conversion kit for my portable generator. I used to have a tri-fuel generator but it wan't enough to run the whole house. So I also have a couple of 100 lb propane bottles around for long term as well.

 

[FrankS]

Here in CT, in my rural town, the generator is essential for us. We lose power frequently. More than three day's is typical, at least once a year. I have two portable units, manage and maintain them myself. Electrician installed the panel so it's legit and does not feedback to the line. If I were younger, I'd be looking at solar back-up options.

Our electrical infrastructure is quite dated and, in my opinion, poorly maintained. As such, the generator is required here.

 

[NW-Bound]

We do actually. And yes, heat is the biggest single electrical draw unless you count our EVs.

We have an incredibly efficient house though which doesn't require as much energy to heat as the average house.

We also have about 42kWh of batteries. Summer in Minnesota used to not require cooling. It still doesn't most of the time, but the exceptions are more common.
If it is cloudy in the coldest of winter for an entire week (which is within the realm of possibilities), we would likely need to turn the heat down to 50 and find somewhere else to weather the storm.
If the sun comes out any of those days, it would likely buy us another day and a half.

It's impressive that you can use solar power for heating in Minnesota. Here in Phoenix, I should be able to run the heatpumps using solar power in the winter because our low at night is only in the low 30Fs. You only have about 65% potential solar generation capacity in the winter compared to what I can do down here.

However, my ground-mounted PV panels get partially shaded in the winter by my 2nd story, and the winter solar generation is poor. I am considering putting more panels on the roof to get around the shading.

I love to tinker around. It's a hobby. About your battery, I recall that you did not have it in the past with your solar system. So, it's obviously a recent addition.

 

[NW-Bound]

Few, if any of my neighbors have AC. It’s generally not needed here (near San Francisco). I have a portable unit for our bedroom I may need 3-5x/year but we haven’t needed to use it all this year (yet).

I think my neighbor mainly got it for his refrigerator and tv but I don’t think the costs were worth it. I could buy a lot of ice for what he paid.

Tesla Powerwall is a very nicely engineered unit, if you don't mind the price. You can have the same capacity for 1/3 the cost, if you don't mind the lack of aesthetics.

 

[stephenson]

Just checked a couple of refrigerators - rental units. New one (Samsung Piece of Crxx) shows 6 amps and older GE shows 11.5 amps - pretty incredible difference! Both have ice makers - the GE ice maker works, but the Samsung POC, not so much. Great TVs, terrible appliances - sort of the Femme Fatale of appliances.

 

[stephenson]

Tesla Powerwall is a very nicely engineered unit, if you don't mind the price. You can have the same capacity for 1/3 the cost, if you don't mind the lack of aesthetics.

Imagine when you just leave your charged EV plugged in and your home power system senses the loss of line power - and, starts pulling from the EV!

 

[Zathras]

It's impressive that you can use solar power for heating in Minnesota. Here in Phoenix, I should be able to run the heatpumps using solar power in the winter because our low at night is only in the low 30Fs. You only have about 65% potential solar generation capacity in the winter compared to what I can do down here.

However, my ground-mounted PV panels get partially shaded in the winter by my 2nd story, and the winter solar generation is poor. I am considering putting more panels on the roof to get around the shading.

I love to tinker around. It's a hobby. About your battery, I recall that you did not have it in the past with your solar system. So, it's obviously a recent addition.

That is a very cool hobby, I applaud your DIY skill
We don’t get much solar in winter. Because winter is more critical for power, we made a number of choices.

1st, we angled the rooftop solar such that they have the optimal winter angle. Our summer production is less efficient, but since winter is more critical…

2nd, the house has many south facing windows. With a roofline that blocks the sun in the summer, but allows it in all winter. With dark porcelain tile to absorb the heat, the sun passively heats our house into the evening. So IF the sun is out, it provides us with both heat, and power for the batteries.

We didn’t have the batteries when we first build, but did plan for them. We have had them about 5 years now.

 

[NW-Bound]

^^^ My high-country boondocks home is also south-facing with many large windows on its high façade which is 25-ft high at the peak. At 7,000-ft elevation, the low in the winter is always subfreezing, yet during the day the interior can get to 70+F with no heat. The sun in AZ is so intense that I had to install shades and to cover furniture to reduce fading. Even in the winter, most days are sunny.

The house looks down the hillside of my lot, which has a slope of about 25 degrees. A ground-mounted PV array there on that south-facing slope would be perfectly situated for maximum production in the winter. And the house is so much better insulated than my home in the low desert that it would not be at all difficult to go off-grid. I just do not live there full-time to make it worthwhile to install an off-grid system.

Hence I put all the effort on the low-desert home, which does not have as good insulation, nor enough land for a larger ground-mounted solar array.

 

[Zathras]

Perfectly sound logic

I wish we had more sunny days in Winter. November is our cloudiest month, with. December not far behind.
In an odd bit of luck, our coldest days tend to be sunny ones.

 

[dvalley]

I’m all for going minimalist with a generator, but definitely consider some of the essentials. You want to be able to run your furnace if the outage happens in the winter. You may want to run air conditioning depending one where you live. A refrigerator is pretty important as well as things like a well pump or a sump pump.

Good call outs, our furnace is natural gas based and pretty easy on the power requirements so it can be powered by the generator or the battery/inverter. Same with the refrigerator. Air conditioner on the other hand is a no-go as it's a big whole house unit. I do have a small roll-around ac in the garage that could work. Having said that I do wish I'd opted for a 2kw unit for some additional headroom while maintaining similar portability and gas efficiency. I may consider getting a dual-fuel one (gas + propane).

 

[Surewhitey]

Yup, I have 6 propane tanks for 3 outside patio heaters (one installed and one back up for each). That is why when I finally saw your post on your generator the other day, I ordered one shortly thereafter. It just seemed too easy for me. Also, usually the reason I hate to BTD is the researching of what to buy and not the "dough" itself. I'm fired, I'm busy.

It's just so easy to have a large - ish, easy to use unit for under $930...delivery included even.

 

[Midpack]

Tesla Powerwall is a very nicely engineered unit, if you don't mind the price. You can have the same capacity for 1/3 the cost, if you don't mind the lack of aesthetics.

I'd certainly consider a Powerwall if I thought I needed a generator. Maybe some day, but in 4 years we've only had on power outage of less than an hour, and an occasional blip now and then. Where we used to live they were only a little more common. Lucky I guess.

 

[dvalley]

I've been wanting a powerwall since it came out, just can't justify it for my needs. There are a couple of alternatives out now too. However, on cloudy, snowy days the storage (batteries, powerwall etc) can only provide what they have stored and won't be able to replenish to keep up with the demand in case of a long term outage. So a small generator in conjunction with a powerwall is prob a good idea.

 

[FIYes]

I have thought about a power wall but just can’t justify the price. I do have a very small solar array and have thought an expansion plus power wall wound helpful in the rare (hopefully) power outage. For example, in the outage this spring if I could have run the refrigerator and freezer a few hours a day that would have been helpful. An unopened freezer will stay cold for quite awhile.

 

[stephenson]

I have a friend in Colorado who is off the grid and has backup batteries - he, and most of his neighbors, use lead acid batteries.

 

[bigcmagor]

I'll add a plug (intended) for Honda 2200 linkable generators. We were without power for 11 days after hurricane Ian and we ran two of them 24/7 except for downtime for oil changes. They powered a window ac unit in our bedroom (acquired in advance for such an emergency), two refrigerators and all of our basic necessities as well as the neighbor's refrigerator - and whatever else he was running off the two cords I ran to his house. We went through about 6 gallons of gasoline daily and I had 30 gallons on hand when the storm hit so I was able to run for five days before fuel was an issue. After our power was restored, I loaned one of the generators out to a friend - who still doesn't have power a year later - and he ran it for an additional 300 hours before he bought one of his own.

 

[mpeirce]

I've been wanting a powerwall since it came out, just can't justify it for my needs. There are a couple of alternatives out now too. However, on cloudy, snowy days the storage (batteries, powerwall etc) can only provide what they have stored and won't be able to replenish to keep up with the demand in case of a long term outage. So a small generator in conjunction with a powerwall is prob a good idea.

One issue with the PowerWall is that it can't be charged from a generator. It can be charged from the grid or from solar, but there is not generator input.

You might be able to rig something. You also have to apparently get into "Storm watch". It's really not setup for that.

Other whole house battery systems have generator support built right in.

 

[Car-Guy]

I'll add a plug (intended) for Honda 2200 linkable generators. We were without power for 11 days after hurricane Ian and we ran two of them 24/7 except for downtime for oil changes. They powered a window ac unit in our bedroom (acquired in advance for such an emergency), two refrigerators and all of our basic necessities as well as the neighbor's refrigerator - and whatever else he was running off the two cords I ran to his house. We went through about 6 gallons of gasoline daily and I had 30 gallons on hand when the storm hit so I was able to run for five days before fuel was an issue. After our power was restored, I loaned one of the generators out to a friend - who still doesn't have power a year later - and he ran it for an additional 300 hours before he bought one of his own.

Still no power after a year ... Must be a heck of a story there.

 

[ncbill]

I have a friend in Colorado who is off the grid and has backup batteries - he, and most of his neighbors, use lead acid batteries.

Send them this info:

https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-powe...-eg4-powerpro-wallmount-battery-9540-pending/

 

[NW-Bound]

Send them this info:

https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-powe...-eg4-powerpro-wallmount-battery-9540-pending/

No, they already have a system, and only need to swap out the lead-acid batteries for the superior lithium battery.

It means they only need this.

https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-powerpro-14kwh-all-weather-lithium-solar-battery-wallmount/

And if their system is not 48V, there are 24V ready-to-go lithium batteries on the market. Prices are around $1200-1600 for a 5-kWh battery like the one below.

 

[NW-Bound]

People who have built DIY systems using lead-acid batteries will have no problem using bare LFP cells like the ones below, as long as they know that LFP cells require special handling and precise electronic monitoring, and are not as tolerant as lead-acid batteries in terms of overcharge/overdischarge conditions.

This means the use of a BMS (battery management system) board to protect the battery.

 

[NW-Bound]

One issue with the PowerWall is that it can't be charged from a generator. It can be charged from the grid or from solar, but there is not generator input.

You might be able to rig something. You also have to apparently get into "Storm watch". It's really not setup for that.

Other whole house battery systems have generator support built right in.

You should be able to input the generator power to the Powerwall via its grid input. In other words the AC output of an inverter generator is clean, just like the grid power. An external manual transfer switch should be all that is needed.

However, the generator output is limited, unlike the grid. So, there has to be a way to program and to limit the power sucked in by the Powewall so as not to exceed the generator capacity. I don't know if they give the home user this programming capability.

And then, changing the installation in any way may void the warranty. I suspect that no Powerwall owner has messed with this.

 

[SecondAttempt]

I think this is a systemic problem that needs to be addressed and so far is not to my knowledge. When a utility's lines start a fire everyone suffers and in the case of PG&E it led to bankruptcy.

Utilities, as monopoly are usually regulated and the ratepayers pay to return a certain profit to investors. But when the utility goes bankrupt the investors are wiped out and the ratepayers end up paying more for years to fund the utility's years of profit-driven decisions that benefited investors.

I think we need a dramatically new model where investors are actually on the hook for lawsuits. In other words if you buy stock in Timberline Electric (made that up) and they make decisions that start a forest fire destroying billions of dollars of houses, you are responsible for your share of the damages. In other words, take away the liability shield for utility investors.

It would be a dramatic change but the way things stand, ratepayers have no say in decisions that could destroy their houses and investors have no incentive to fund projects to mitigate risk. It's a really flawed model.

In Maui they are now going after the cable TV company (Spectrum) and telephone company (Hawaiian Telcom) because they hung their lines on the power company's poles in such a way that they contributed to their failure. I have no idea if this is true but there clearly is a lot of change ahead for utilities!