are home generators going to be unavoidable in the future?

[Gumby]

I think this is a systemic problem that needs to be addressed and so far is not to my knowledge. When a utility's lines start a fire everyone suffers and in the case of PG&E it led to bankruptcy.

Utilities, as monopoly are usually regulated and the ratepayers pay to return a certain profit to investors. But when the utility goes bankrupt the investors are wiped out and the ratepayers end up paying more for years to fund the utility's years of profit-driven decisions that benefited investors.

I think we need a dramatically new model where investors are actually on the hook for lawsuits. In other words if you buy stock in Timberline Electric (made that up) and they make decisions that start a forest fire destroying billions of dollars of houses, you are responsible for your share of the damages. In other words, take away the liability shield for utility investors.

It would be a dramatic change but the way things stand, ratepayers have no say in decisions that could destroy their houses and investors have no incentive to fund projects to mitigate risk. It's a really flawed model.

In Maui they are now going after the cable TV company (Spectrum) and telephone company (Hawaiian Telcom) because they hung their lines on the power company's poles in such a way that they contributed to their failure. I have no idea if this is true but there clearly is a lot of change ahead for utilities!

Then you would need to shift to government owned utilities, because no one will buy stock in a company where you risk being sued and losing your other assets just for being an equity holder.

 

[mpeirce]

In other words, take away the liability shield for utility investors.

It would be a dramatic change but the way things stand, ratepayers have no say in decisions that could destroy their houses and investors have no incentive to fund projects to mitigate risk. It's a really flawed model.

Most non-government owned utilities are highly regulated. The customers, who are also voters, influence the utilities via their elected representatives appointing the regulators.

So fix the regulatory structure. Trying to reinvent corporations isn’t going to work.

 

[NW-Bound]

I guess people get the utilities that they deserve. Problems can be fixed, but it costs money. And people don't want to pay more.

 

[Koolau]

We are near a fire station and a medical facility. Even during major storms we come back online quickly.

My back up plan is not a generator. It's my car and a list of hotels. That'll work for a few days if needed.

Forgotten (if I ever knew) where you live, but do you have a potential for frozen pipes, etc. if power is not restored in a timely fashion? In the old Homestead, we installed a wood stove for such an eventuality. We've not really needed it which is good. YMMV

 

[Koolau]

We really shouldn't be advocating all (or even many) people getting generators.

The sensible solution is to harden our electric infrastructure: reliable power generating plants along with hardened power transmission infrastructure - and put local power lines underground so trees don't fall on them.

Expensive? How much does installing an maintaining individual min-power plants (generators) for everyone?

Heh, heh, if you know someone who will get busy on that, by all means. I agree with you, but until that day...

 

[SecondAttempt]

Then you would need to shift to government owned utilities, because no one will buy stock in a company where you risk being sued and losing your other assets just for being an equity holder.

Perhaps. But I am not in favor of that. I think there could be a model where utility investors are on the hook for massive damages and this impacts their decisions and expectations and also causes them to be much more involved in management decisions. It works in the insurance industry for example with Lloyds of London. It would be a fundamental change from how US utilities currently operate basically as dividend engines because they are protected by regulation.

We all need utilities. But we've seen repeated and consistent failures of the current model. The Texas storms and their lack of preparedness. Maui/PGE fires and lack of preparedness... I don't think the management of the utilities was stupid and did not recognize the risks. I think they just knew the investors would flee if they acknowledged them.

I don't have a solution but I don't think our current model is workable...or ever was. It just took a while for the warts to show.

 

[DrRoy]

We got a portable last year after a couple moderate outages, but haven't used it yet.

 

[Zathras]

The examples of California and Texas are places where utilities have been ‘deregulated’.
There are other areas of the country where utilities have and are working quite well.

Perhaps we need to target the specific breakdown in those areas, rather than use a nuke to destroy the utilities across the country?

 

[Gumby]

Perhaps. But I am not in favor of that. I think there could be a model where utility investors are on the hook for massive damages and this impacts their decisions and expectations and also causes them to be much more involved in management decisions. It works in the insurance industry for example with Lloyds of London. It would be a fundamental change from how US utilities currently operate basically as dividend engines because they are protected by regulation.

We all need utilities. But we've seen repeated and consistent failures of the current model. The Texas storms and their lack of preparedness. Maui/PGE fires and lack of preparedness... I don't think the management of the utilities was stupid and did not recognize the risks. I think they just knew the investors would flee if they acknowledged them.

I don't have a solution but I don't think our current model is workable...or ever was. It just took a while for the warts to show.

If I have to be much more involved in the utility management at the risk of "massive damages", then I am going to demand "massive returns" on my investment and you will pay "massive charges" for your electricity. I get it; you see there is a problem and you want to do something about it. This is something, but it is wrong. As others have suggested, perhaps re-regulation is the right answer.

 

[Car-Guy]

Appropriate timing for this thread... We are on our generator now. Power went off about 15 mins ago after a heavy electrical and rain storm moved through a few hours ago. So maybe we are getting back to normal around here. It's clear now so hopefully it doesn't last long.


EDIT @~8.55am CDT: Well that's wasn't so bad... Power just came back on. Total outage time was ~45mins. According to our co-op power outage map we had about 1000 "meters" out, in their service area. I guess I should feel lucky, there are still ~850 out.

 

[folivier]

At the house we just sold, in a retirement community, the power company had just moved us to a different system in order to power a new subdivision. Thankfully we were at the cabin when a hurricane came in and flooded a nearby town which is where our power came from. Over two weeks without power! Our son went by and emptied the fridge and freezer, thanks son! Things like that are unacceptable but happen never the less.
If we would have to live there during hurricane season we would have a whole house generator. But our better plan is to leave.

 

[House Divided]

We live in a rural area on a big lake in north central Alabama, when we moved here in 2017 we would have power outages monthly. Between tornadoes, big thunder storms, high winds, ice, snow and sometimes just equipment failures there was no getting around having a generator. When power goes out here we are usually one of the last areas to get it restored because of the small number of households it affects, so we are rarely restored in 6 to 8 hours. The power has gotten more reliable now but still goes out at least quarterly, that's why use propane to heat, cook, and the hot water heater, so the generator is only used to run AC (mini split systems), refrigerator, freezer, TV's, and lights. The generator is not that large its 6500 watts and is located in a shed and I have to manually switch the main breaker off then start the generator. It's the price you pay to live on the lake here.

 

[stephenson]

House,

Is the actual cause of power loss falling trees with above ground lines?

 

[House Divided]

House,

Is the actual cause of power loss falling trees with above ground lines?

Yes. Probably 95% of the time it's tree's on power lines.

 

[Koolau]

I think this is a systemic problem that needs to be addressed and so far is not to my knowledge. When a utility's lines start a fire everyone suffers and in the case of PG&E it led to bankruptcy.

Utilities, as monopoly are usually regulated and the ratepayers pay to return a certain profit to investors. But when the utility goes bankrupt the investors are wiped out and the ratepayers end up paying more for years to fund the utility's years of profit-driven decisions that benefited investors.

I think we need a dramatically new model where investors are actually on the hook for lawsuits. In other words if you buy stock in Timberline Electric (made that up) and they make decisions that start a forest fire destroying billions of dollars of houses, you are responsible for your share of the damages. In other words, take away the liability shield for utility investors.

It would be a dramatic change but the way things stand, ratepayers have no say in decisions that could destroy their houses and investors have no incentive to fund projects to mitigate risk. It's a really flawed model.

In Maui they are now going after the cable TV company (Spectrum) and telephone company (Hawaiian Telcom) because they hung their lines on the power company's poles in such a way that they contributed to their failure. I have no idea if this is true but there clearly is a lot of change ahead for utilities!

Equity holders already stand to lose part or all of their investment. That is reasonable. Holding them responsible for the evil deeds or just mistakes of a corporation would end our system of investments.

If I misunderstood what your proposal is, let us know.

 

[NW-Bound]

This is one heck of a deal: 57 kWh of LFP cells, made in Japan, new unused surplus, for $7000.

That's $123/kWh for raw cells, compared to paying $4000 for a turn-key 14 kWh battery, or more than $10K (installation included) for a Tesla Powerwall with 13.5 kWh.

Shipping is not cheap as the pallet weighs 1280 lbs. FOB California.

The pallet holds 240 cells, shown below.

 

[ncbill]

Sorry, but for batteries installed inside or next to my home I'm buying pre-built ones with built-in BMS, disconnect, etc.

IIRC, most now offer a 10-year warranty as well.

Now, "used" (really overstock) solar panels are often a great deal.

Locally I can get sold-as-385W (OEM says 375-400W) bi-facial panels for ground-mount for $180 each by the pallet-load.

At that price I'd happily pay the premium versus cheaper, but only 200-250W panels.

 

[NW-Bound]

Sorry, but for batteries installed inside or next to my home I'm buying pre-built ones with built-in BMS, disconnect, etc...

I am not going to install any lithium battery inside the home or garage. The risk may be small, but we keep reading about EVs of various makes burning down people's home, and I would think EV makers know more about batteries.

And that's why I have them in a backyard garden shed.

I need a larger shed now, where I can mount an AC to keep the equipment cool. When it was 115F ambient air, the charge controllers got to as high as 135-140F. They are smart enough to reduce the power output to keep themselves from burning up. That's very good, but I lost quite a bit of potential power. Plus lithium cells lose their capacity faster at higher temperature, and I start to see the effect.

 

[ncbill]

I am not going to install any lithium battery inside the home. The risk may be small, but we keep reading about EVs of various makes burning down people's home, and I would think EV makers know more about batteries.

And that's why I have them in a backyard garden shed.

I need a larger one now, where I can mount an AC to keep the equipment cool. When it was 115F ambient air, the charge controllers got to as high as 135F. They are smart enough to reduce the power output to keep themselves from burning up. That's very good, but I lost quite a bit of potential power. Plus lithium cells lose their capacity faster at higher temperature, and I start to see the effect.

I don't see a risk with LFP-based battery packs, which even Tesla appears to have switched to for their latest Powerwall.

I do like the idea of a "power shed" which I'd likely do for a ground-mount array, trenching both 120VAC lines back to the house.

 

[NW-Bound]

I don't see a risk with LFP-based battery packs, which even Tesla appears to have switched to for their latest Powerwall.

I do like the idea of a "power shed" which I'd likely do for a ground-mount array, trenching both 120VAC lines back to the house.

The ones I talked about earlier are LFP. So are the ones currently on the market in the form of rack-mounted cabinets.

Current and older Tesla Powerwalls are NMC, the type notorious for bursting into flames if abused or stressed.

And yes, bare cells are only for the DIY'ers who know how to add a BMS and to follow all the safety precautions. Even so, I still keep them outside of the home.

 

[OldShooter]

... I think we need a dramatically new model where investors are actually on the hook for lawsuits. In other words if you buy stock in Timberline Electric (made that up) and they make decisions that start a forest fire destroying billions of dollars of houses, you are responsible for your share of the damages. In other words, take away the liability shield for utility investors.

The invention of the limited liability corporation is widely considered the breakthrough event that made the modern economy possible.

... the way things stand, ratepayers have no say in decisions that could destroy their houses and investors have no incentive to fund projects to mitigate risk. ...

False, and false. The ratepayers have a say via the states' public utility commissions. The investors have an incentive because they get paid a negotiated rate of return on their investments.

The problem with the system is that the PUCs tend to be politically driven, leading to grandstanding and irrational "regulation" of the utilities. As representatives of the ratepayers they tend to fail because the ratepayers are clueless as to how the system is supposed to work. This disincentivises investors because the PUCs on the other side of the table cannot be trusted to deliver on their promises.

 

[Koolau]

This is one heck of a deal: 57 kWh of LFP cells, made in Japan, new unused surplus, for $7000.

That's $123/kWh for raw cells, compared to paying $4000 for a turn-key 14 kWh battery, or more than $10K (installation included) for a Tesla Powerwall with 13.5 kWh.

Shipping is not cheap as the pallet weighs 1280 lbs. FOB California.

The pallet holds 240 cells, shown below.

Sounds like a righteous BTD - for YOU.


Let us know how you tie it into your system.

 

[NW-Bound]

Sounds like a righteous BTD - for YOU.

Let us know how you tie it into your system.

Sorry my earlier post was misleading.

I would have bought it and drove to Cali to take delivery, if it were not for my wife. She would have a heart attack, then when she comes to, would scream "Where are you going to put it?"

Well, I am still working on building an enclosure for the 12-kWh worth of cells that I bought in March, but have not been able to do anything with them. It got too hot after I returned from the oversea trip in June for me to either work in the garage or the back patio.

But come to think of it, $7K is a cheap BTD. And it would keep me busy for months.

PS. An additional 57 kWh worth of battery is too much, unless I have room to put up a lot more panels to generate juice to charge them. It's the same as there's no point in having a reservoir of 100,000 gallons to store the rain water you catch off the roof of your house.

 

[Koolau]

Sorry my earlier post was misleading.

I would have bought it and drove to Cali to take delivery, if it were not for my wife. She would have a heart attack, then when she comes to, would scream "Where are you going to put it?"

Well, I am still working on building an enclosure for the 12-kWh worth of cells that I bought in March, but have not been able to do anything with them. It got too hot after I returned from the oversea trip in June for me to either work in the garage or the back patio.

But come to think of it, $7K is a cheap BTD. And it would keep me busy for months.

PS. An additional 57 kWh worth of battery is too much, unless I have room to put up a lot more panels to generate juice to charge them. It's the same as there's no point in having a reservoir of 100,000 gallons to store the rain water you catch off the roof of your house.

Heh, heh, depends on where you live. If you live in AZ, you are probably right. Now, if you live near Mount Waialeale on the Island of Kauai, 100,000 gallons might not be enough. Waialeale is considered one of the wettest spots on Earth with near 500 inches of rain each year!


RE: Your DW and her heart: Tell her you're saving money. She might buy it.

 

[Gumby]

FYI - Generac Recalls Portable Generators for fire hazard

Just a quick FYI:

https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2023/G...nerators-Due-to-Serious-Fire-and-Burn-Hazards

The recalled generators’ fuel tank can fail to vent adequately from the rollover valve, causing the gas tank to build up excess pressure and expel fuel when opened, posing fire and burn hazards.