Whole house generator and propane supply

[skipro33]

Our electric company has meter with a power cord to Plug into to your personal generator. When power goes out, you start your generator and the meter will switch to it automatically. When power is restored, the meter will switch back and send you a text to let you know to shut off your generator.
This is with PG&E in California
https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/save-energy-money/savings-programs/backup-power-transfer-meter.page

 

[harley]

Generac makes two wifi modules for remote monitoring purposes, part numbers 7169 (4G LTE) and 7170 (personal home wifi) that might interest you. Both are available from Amazon, between $200 - $300. Another benefit besides remote monitoring offered by these devices is firmware upgrades for the generator.

I looked into these, but our genny is too old. It was made in 2007. Plus, I don't really want to pay a monthly monitoring fee.

I mentioned in the post above I like to know what’s going on at start up. Imagine the engine not starting and burning out the starter. The other thing I don’t like about the auto start is when there are brown outs and “flickering” events. The generator starts and stops a few to several times in a short timeframe. Suffice to say, the power grid in my area isn’t great. If I had life essential equipment, I’d take the risk, but I don’t.

As for starting the generator during the storm, at least where I live, they come and go pretty quick. I don’t mind being without power for a bit until things calm down. Then I go out and start the generator.

Having a 22 hour interruption is no fun, but I’ve had two this year, one over 48 hours and one over 72 hours and a couple small ones just for fun.

My generator doesn't keep trying to start. If it doesn't start up pretty quick, it logs an error and quits.

Once we had an outage during a really nasty thunderstorm and the genny didn't start. I had to go out and screw around with the transfer switch, standing in standing water with lightning all around. Scared the hell out of me! I won't do that again.

 

[SecondAttempt]

^^^ I was about to suggest something like the above, and to add some solar panels.

In contrast with a whole-house generator, the solar+battery set up provides a benefit even when you do not have an outage. This is particularly true where electricity is as expensive as it is in Hawaii.

And in addition, the battery serves as a buffer and storage, so that if you need to run a generator to supplement the solar panels, the generator does not have to run 24/7. A small portable generator of $500 would be all you need.

Solar is not a great option for my house. We have rainwater catchment for our household water (except drinking and cooking) so putting panels on the roof is problematic (not impossible but just a lot of issues to worry about like leaching things into the catchment water.) A separate racking system is possible but that also has concerns and is pretty expensive.

Battery backup instead of generator is something I will look into.

 

[SecondAttempt]

I looked into these, but our genny is too old. It was made in 2007. Plus, I don't really want to pay a monthly monitoring fee.



My generator doesn't keep trying to start. If it doesn't start up pretty quick, it logs an error and quits.

Once we had an outage during a really nasty thunderstorm and the genny didn't start. I had to go out and screw around with the transfer switch, standing in standing water with lightning all around. Scared the hell out of me! I won't do that again.

I know a guy who has been struck by lightning twice. Both times were dealing with a finicky generator in a thunderstorm. But this was while at work not trying to keep his household lights on.

 

[SecondAttempt]

Most all large propane tanks tap off vapor. Not liquid in normal operation. They do have a liquid line that can be accessed to empty the tank for removal, it requires a pump. So the basic answer to your question is no you can't refill small bottles from your home tank. At least not without specialized equipment.

Ok, thanks. I could probably get enough gravity head to get liquid to flow into the smaller tank on my property. But, yeah, refilling my grill tanks is an afterthought and probably not reasonable.

 

[SecondAttempt]

From what I have seen, the difference in cost from a portable generator to the full in home generator is more like 10X.

I'm seeing prices of $1500-$1900 for a good size portable generator in Hawaii While the Generac with transfer switch is just over $6000 for a much bigger generator. That could be just Hawaii.

I would still need to put in the cement pads but that would not cost much if I do it myself. Probably my biggest extra costs would be the tank and digging the ditch from the propane tank to the generator, probably close to 90 feet and trenching here isn't cheap because of the lava.

 

[SecondAttempt]

Generac and I’m sure the others have a timer that can be set for how long the power is out before starting. Generac defaults to 5 seconds. I had ours changed to 35 seconds to prevent the nuisance start stops.

How programmable/configurable is the Generac? I would not really have an issue with a weekly self test but if we are traveling we would typically not always want that to happen, especially if it burns as much oil as someone suggested. Can you put it in manual then manually start it and transfer power if the power is out for a few hours? I understand there are safety issues at play here so maybe not possible.

My thinking is that if we are not home, a few hours without power is no issue but if it starts to become days I'd want power to keep the freezer running. I could probably get someone to come over and check the oil once a day in that event.

 

[kingkarmann]

We have lived outside the city limits since 1967. Well water, septic system and propane are what we rely on. Having reliable power especially to pump water and run the septic system is important.
We added a MIL suite in 2015. The electric panel needed upgraded. We decided that would be a good reason to go ahead and add a Generac. It's a 22kw with automatic transfer. Also added a second 500 gal. propane tank. I wanted one 1000 gal. but it' too long for the space.
Anyhow, these generators sip fuel. The technology allows them to be out of sight, out of mind. It autostarts every other week running for 5 minutes. It has an external indicator light showing the status along with Bluetooth connectivity to allow for remote operation and diagnosis.
Being in a rural outpost as you have mentioned really point to wanting as much fuel capacity as you can safely store.
A 22kw running at near full load uses about 3.5 gallons per hour exhausting a 500 gal tank in 5-7 days. When the generator is supplying power to our home we try to be a bit more conservative with power usage which I'm sure would stretch it out to several more days. (need to be more conservative all the time!)
The longest we have been without power co. power is about a day. The few times we have actually lost power since the installation has only been a couple of times a year here in Ohio.
Motor oil consumption is minimal. Have never added, only changed. They do shut down if oil pressure or level drops.
FYI, I'm not compensated nor represent generac.

 

[DaveInMi]

We have a 10 KW Kohler generator. We also use propane for backup heat, hot water, and a stove.
10 KW is enough for our house, the electric dryer will load shed if the A/C is on. A smaller generator means less fuel usage under low load conditions.
Check with your propane suppliers. Some may not want to do business if all you have is a genset. Some can be picky if you buy your own tank; they make money through leasing tanks.
As for options during an outage, I also have a portable Honda 3 KW inverter generator.

 

[Texas Proud]

I'm seeing prices of $1500-$1900 for a good size portable generator in Hawaii While the Generac with transfer switch is just over $6000 for a much bigger generator. That could be just Hawaii.

I would still need to put in the cement pads but that would not cost much if I do it myself. Probably my biggest extra costs would be the tank and digging the ditch from the propane tank to the generator, probably close to 90 feet and trenching here isn't cheap because of the lava.

You can get a small home generator for a couple thousand but it is like 8K or so... the 20K or 24K is in the $6K to $7k range... and here it cost about $6K to $7K to install.. a neighbor of my sister got a quote for $14K total install which included poring a concrete pad..


Have no idea what a 500 gal tank would cost installed...

 

[Ronstar]

We have a generac with transfer switch. Works great , but install was a lot of work. Mine provides power to 16 circuits when the power goes out - these circuits come out of the generac sub panel.

We have natural gas so I can’t answer your propane questions.

 

[Texas Proud]

We have a 10 KW Kohler generator. We also use propane for backup heat, hot water, and a stove.
10 KW is enough for our house, the electric dryer will load shed if the A/C is on. A smaller generator means less fuel usage under low load conditions.
Check with your propane suppliers. Some may not want to do business if all you have is a genset. Some can be picky if you buy your own tank; they make money through leasing tanks.
As for options during an outage, I also have a portable Honda 3 KW inverter generator.

Yes... an important option if you want to go with a smaller genset... it is probably the same with Generac but they have load sharing technology where you can put (IIRC) two big electric hogs on a switch that will not allow that item to start up if the genset does not have enough head room to run it... the example above is drying and AC... but can include stove or microwave... so if a hog is on and another wants to start it will not be able too... it has to wait for the other load to go away and then it can start...


I just bought the larger genset as I have natural gas and did not want to do this... but if electricity goes out we just do not add load if we do not have too... but it has run the AC, stove and microwave at the same time so I do not know if I need to worry...

 

[sengsational]

It does not require a pump. We have a tank at work that pressure fills the forklift or any other tank we hook up to it. What it requires is a tank on a pad, with a bottom tap and valve. Hook the delivery hose to that with the tank filling fitting.
The pump speeds up the process for commercial filling, but it is not needed.
I don't know what that tank style and availability adds to the cost, nor the hose kit.
I would expect it to be several hundred dollars for both items.

Thanks for clearing that up. I accept that gravity feed LP is a thing now. If the big tanks already have a tap at the bottom, someone might live long enough to pay back on the hose and fittings.

Ok, thanks. I could probably get enough gravity head to get liquid to flow into the smaller tank on my property. But, yeah, refilling my grill tanks is an afterthought and probably not reasonable.

Might be a hobby project if you get bored.

 

[skyking1]

It's how we fill our propane tanks. That is all that big tank is for, no vapor tap at all. What fills the tank is pressure differential caused by the venting at the top of the small bottle.

 

[LateToFIRE]

We have a whole house generator for our rural weekend spread, can run a couple weeks off a 500 gallon, buried LP tank if we are not running our central A/C as the generator runs at variable speed depending on load requirements. Would say between the purchase of the generator, installation of the ATS switch, and running underground electrical lines about a 150ft cause we didn't want it near the house, I'd say all-in was ~$10K. Others I know with similar set-ups have noted about same all-in cost.

We choose this set-up because we're most vulnerable in a prolonged winter storm outage where we (or our property manager) could not get to the house or if we're in residence during a big storm and can't get out (i.e. on our own). Either way, it's worked nicely and saved our bacon a few times.

Couple words of advice come to mind:

(1) We had the option of buying a LP tank or leasing one from a supplier - we opted to buy ours so not wedded to a supplier.

(2) It is critically important to have the generator serviced annually so that it will be assured to work when you need it to actually work.

(3) Get the 500 gallon tank. Watched a friend sweat out a big winter storm when his smaller tank started running low and the LP supplier could not get to him. When LP is needed most is exactly when it's real hard to get.

Added:

(4) Rather than incur the expense and hazards of LP transfer equipment, I'd just keep 2-3 small tanks on hand for the grill. Your LP supplier and pick up empties and drop off new ones as needed.

EDIT: The $10K purchase/install cost for generator/switch/tank was from nearly 10 years ago, so likely much more today. My how time flies.

 

[Texas Proud]

What whole house generator runs at variable speeds?


The ones I researched were air cooled at 3600 and water cooled at 1800 rpms...

 

[pjigar]

We are in a rural place with a modest 2200 sq ft house, 5 mini split AC (1 ton each) and 2 water heaters. I can run a whole house (minus one water heater) with a 10KW portable generator. Push button start and stop.

https://www.generac.com/all-products/generators/portable-generators/gp-series/gp9200e

I have a manual interlock transfer switch. The whole house generator was so much more money so we opted for a portable.

PS: This generator has one issue (No 50A 220V outlet) so I had to jerry rig one otherwise you can't use all available 10KW.

 

[Stormy Kromer]

Ok, thanks. I could probably get enough gravity head to get liquid to flow into the smaller tank on my property. But, yeah, refilling my grill tanks is an afterthought and probably not reasonable.

I bought an adapter kit to fill small 1 lb. LP cylinders, (the kind you use for camping) off of a 20 lb tank. Cost about $12.

I told my buddy "hold my beer and watch this!"

I filled the little tank in a minute or so and when I took it off and put the cap on all the LP leaked out in 10 seconds.

That was my very last attempt to harvest LP.

 

[skyking1]

hehe!
Those little bottles do not have a real valve. The poky thing pushes back the sealy bit, and when you unscrew it hopefully it re-sealafies it. Those are the proper technical terms.
I never got one of those, but I do have the hose to use a big bottle in place of those expensive disposables. that is legit.

 

[Texas Proud]

We are in a rural place with a modest 2200 sq ft house, 5 mini split AC (1 ton each) and 2 water heaters. I can run a whole house (minus one water heater) with a 10KW portable generator. Push button start and stop.

https://www.generac.com/all-products/generators/portable-generators/gp-series/gp9200e

I have a manual interlock transfer switch. The whole house generator was so much more money so we opted for a portable.

PS: This generator has one issue (No 50A 220V outlet) so I had to jerry rig one otherwise you can't use all available 10KW.

I did not see it being dual fuel... so need a lot of gas to keep this running..


My last outage would have been 3 fill ups or 24 gallons... and since I went away for half the time my generator was running it would not switch back..


There is convenience to having it all automated... I like that convenience..

 

[LateToFIRE]

What whole house generator runs at variable speeds?


The ones I researched were air cooled at 3600 and water cooled at 1800 rpms...

Kohler makes variable speed generators. Here's an example of one:

https://apelectric.com/content/PDF/Kohler/20rca_spec_sheet.pdf

 

[Jerry1]

What whole house generator runs at variable speeds?


The ones I researched were air cooled at 3600 and water cooled at 1800 rpms...

Mine is 25kw, liquid cooled and runs at 3600. It’s getting old though. Production date was 20 years ago this November.

 

[bjorn2bwild]

I bought an adapter kit to fill small 1 lb. LP cylinders, (the kind you use for camping) off of a 20 lb tank. Cost about $12.

I told my buddy "hold my beer and watch this!"

I filled the little tank in a minute or so and when I took it off and put the cap on all the LP leaked out in 10 seconds.

That was my very last attempt to harvest LP.

hehe!
Those little bottles do not have a real valve. The poky thing pushes back the sealy bit, and when you unscrew it hopefully it re-sealafies it. Those are the proper technical terms.
I never got one of those, but I do have the hose to use a big bottle in place of those expensive disposables. that is legit.

There are refillable 1 lb. bottles that can be safely and legally refilled.
They have a set-screw/bleeder port at the 80% fill level.


https://www.amazon.com/Flame-King-R...4&sprefix=refillable+1lb+,aps,276&sr=8-1&th=1

 

[NW-Bound]

I bought an adapter kit to fill small 1 lb. LP cylinders, (the kind you use for camping) off of a 20 lb tank. Cost about $12.

I told my buddy "hold my beer and watch this!"

I filled the little tank in a minute or so and when I took it off and put the cap on all the LP leaked out in 10 seconds.

That was my very last attempt to harvest LP.

hehe!
Those little bottles do not have a real valve. The poky thing pushes back the sealy bit, and when you unscrew it hopefully it re-sealafies it. Those are the proper technical terms.
I never got one of those, but I do have the hose to use a big bottle in place of those expensive disposables. that is legit.

Still, the little check valve gizmo inside when new is able to hold the contained propane for a long time. I suspect that Stormy's canister got some debris pushed into the passage, which jammed the valve and kept it from sealing. Remember that these cylinders have no other secondary valves to keep the content from leaking out under pressure. I have a cylinder for use with my soldering torch for decades. I disconnect the cylinder after each pipe-sweating job, and after so many years, it still has some propane in it.

I have not done this, but saw that you can buy real caps for these cylinders to add another layer of protection. From Amazon, $10 for 6 caps.

 

[bjorn2bwild]

Still, the little check valve gizmo inside when new is able to hold the contained propane for a long time. I suspect that Stormy's canister got some debris pushed into the passage, which jammed the valve and kept it from sealing. Remember that these cylinders have no other secondary valves to keep the content from leaking out under pressure. I have a cylinder for use with my soldering torch for decades. I disconnect the cylinder after each pipe-sweating job, and after so many years, it still has some propane in it.

I have not done this, but saw that you can buy real caps for these cylinders to add another layer of protection. From Amazon, $10 for 6 caps.

The leakage comes from the pressure relief valve on the disposables when refilled.
The stem is pulled out to fill and does not seat properly afterwards, that is why they can not be transported legally after refilling.