Whole house generator and propane supply

[OldShooter]

Oh... just want to add info because someone noted how expensive it was to run a large gas generator...


This is with nothing but looking at a bill and a WAG... but we were offline for 22 hours recently and when I looked at my next gas bill I calculate a cost of about $1.20 per hour for the generator...


Not cheap but way less than the over $3 per hour mentioned..

I will guess that in almost all cases it is the cost of the genset and installation that overwhelms any cost calculations. I presently have a manual transfer switch and a 5KW portable generator. Zero worries about running cost, but some concern that if I run out of gasoline I might have to drive a long way to buy any more.

I'm thinking about adding an auto-run genset at our lake home. It will be fed from our 500 gallon LP tank. Running cost will again be negligible in the economic calculation.

 

[Northforker]

For us it boils down to these two scenarios when considering a backup power system.

1. If the power goes out when we are home, it makes more sense to use a high quality $2500-$3000 4000w portable inverter generator that runs on propane from portable tanks and extension cords to power essential items like the freezer, refrigerator, lights, portable heaters instead of the furnace, internet, television, and use stored water instead of powering the well. We can use the RV with the onboard generator and AC if its oppressively hot.

2. If the power goes out when we are gone(which is about 8 months/year to the West or Alaska for the Summer or Florida for the winter, it makes sense to have a whole house backup generator to keeps the pipes from freezing, the food in the freezers from spoiling and the security system operating during long term power failures. In our case, this unit is about $9000-$10,000 installed and hooked up to our current 1000 gal propane tank.

We've been in this house for 8 years and the longest power outage has been about 48 hrs. However, there historically have been some outages in the last 30 yrs caused by ice storms that knocked the power out for 2-3 weeks. So, roll the dice or drop $10k?

Frozen pipe repairs and the associated damage can run into the tens of thousands and homeowners may not cover it if they discover you've been gone on an extended trip for 4 or 5 months. Something to weigh in the calculation.

 

[Surewhitey]

I have a small battery / inverter for a few hours loss for the fridge. If it goes longer, I break out the portable Westinghouse 9,500 (propane) & run the whole house. We just had a 8 hour outage & it worked great & a 5 minutes setup with the manual bypass switch & plug. Probably in the $2-3/hr cost, but totally worth it. If it goes way over on time, we can use gasoline too, but try to stay with propane for ease of storage. The complete cost was around $1500 with switch, plug, bypass, cord & generator. Battery is around $300 & up. I also use this for long weekend camping trips.

 

[FedRetired50]

Oh... just want to add info because someone noted how expensive it was to run a large gas generator...


This is with nothing but looking at a bill and a WAG... but we were offline for 22 hours recently and when I looked at my next gas bill I calculate a cost of about $1.20 per hour for the generator...


Not cheap but way less than the over $3 per hour mentioned..

I was referring to a rough average US price for LPG, not NG. After checking again right now I see it is actually around $2.67/gallon. Where I live it is well over $3/gallon. https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/heatingoilpropane/

So still about $96 per day using the national LPG average.

 

[FedRetired50]

I will guess that in almost all cases it is the cost of the genset and installation that overwhelms any cost calculations. I presently have a manual transfer switch and a 5KW portable generator. Zero worries about running cost, but some concern that if I run out of gasoline I might have to drive a long way to buy any more.

I'm thinking about adding an auto-run genset at our lake home. It will be fed from our 500 gallon LP tank. Running cost will again be negligible in the economic calculation.

My cost in 2004 was about $5000 installed, going on memory. I put an hour meter on my genset back then (they didn't come with one) so I know it has run about 284 hours since then, including exercise time. Using today's LPG national average of $2.67/gallon that's a fuel cost of $1137. Since I was renting my tank for a long time I often paid $3-$6/gallon and that also doesn't take into account present value. Likely my present value cost is well over $2000. Plus add maintenance costs, likely $300/year for someone that doesn't do it themselves (which I do).

Add it all up and fuel + maintenance would have cost me well over that original $5000 if I didn't do my own oil changes.

As for the fuel supply, if you run out of LPG, or your NG supply disappears during an emergency, your chance of getting either before the end of the outage is just about zero. Even if you local gasoline supplier is dark, and even the one in the next town, at some point you'll be able to get gasoline on your own and bring it home.

 

[FedRetired50]

... that runs on propane from portable tanks

Propane runs clean, which is a plus, but keep in mind that it has a third less energy density than gasoline, so you have to keep more of it around to get the same energy output from it. And those 20 pound tanks only have about 4.6 gallons in them. You'll need about twice as many 20 pound tanks as 5-gallon gasoline containers to give you the same end result.

 

[Northforker]

Propane runs clean, which is a plus, but keep in mind that it has a third less energy density than gasoline, so you have to keep more of it around to get the same energy output from it. And those 20 pound tanks only have about 4.6 gallons in them. You'll need about twice as many 20 pound tanks as 5-gallon gasoline containers to give you the same end result.

Gasoline has a relatively short "shelf life". I agree its more efficient and cheaper in the short run though. 20 and 30 lb tanks are relatively cheap if you can find them used. I've got 6 each 20 lb tanks and 4 each 30 lb tanks. If it takes more time than that intermittently running the freezers and heater, I may have to surrender.

 

[OldShooter]

Gasoline has a relatively short "shelf life". I agree its more efficient and cheaper in the short run though. 20 and 30 lb tanks are relatively cheap if you can find them used. I've got 6 each 20 lb tanks and 4 each 30 lb tanks. If it takes more time than that intermittently running the freezers and heater, I may have to surrender.

I ran our 13.5 KW Kohler LPG generator from 100# tanks provided by the LPG supplier. I don't recall ever signing any kind of agreement or contract. I kept two around (plus one connected to the LPG kitchen stove.) one connected and one spare. Took them to town for a refill though that was very rare.

In addition to buying them, if you exchange 20# tanks they are up front about shorting us on the amount; I have seen both 18# and 15#. So I always go somewhere with my BBQ tanks where they fill my tank and it is metered. Then I also don't end up giving the vendor whatever is left in the tank being exchanged.

 

[FedRetired50]

Gasoline has a relatively short "shelf life". I agree its more efficient and cheaper in the short run though. 20 and 30 lb tanks are relatively cheap if you can find them used. I've got 6 each 20 lb tanks and 4 each 30 lb tanks. If it takes more time than that intermittently running the freezers and heater, I may have to surrender.

With stabilizer you can get up to a year, but I do notice a difference as that year is up. Then just pour it into the car. Your way is cleaner!

 

[Spock]

...
Longer-term, when we buy our next car, it will have V2H (vehicle-to-home) capability (https://www.dcbel.energy/blog/2023/01/04/new-year-new-bidirectional-cars-2023-edition/). Several models will power my home for a week! After I use my PV system to charge the car, I can benefit from the large battery in other ways than just on the road. Not quite free power, but close.

I don't know where you are in our islands, but maybe one of these will work for you.

IIRC, that same utoob channel has a vid discussing how a Ford Lightning can be used for V2H at a lower cost per stored kwh than a Tesla Powerwall battery system.

 

[Spock]

I was referring to a rough average US price for LPG, not NG. After checking again right now I see it is actually around $2.67/gallon. Where I live it is well over $3/gallon. https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/heatingoilpropane/

So still about $96 per day using the national LPG average.

With an emergency generator, there is more to it than the cost of operation. There is the cost of NOT operating it.

3 examples I've witnessed:
My neighbors house is built in a low spot very close to a creek. He has a dike around the house to keep the creek itself back, but he has a sewage lift pump to get effluent from his house to his septic tank. No power = no toilets. We carpool and had an ice storm hit while we were at work. He rushed into my office around noon and asked if we could leave NOW and if we could stop at Northern Hydraulics on the way out of town. He got the last 4K Coleman portable generator in the store.



That ice storm took out LOTS of power lines. All of the local dairy farms (100-150 head operations) were screwed. They didn't have enough people to milk cows by hand (which causes significant problems beyond discomfort for the cows). They couldn't store the milk they had in the tanks and had to dump it. They couldn't clean anything because it was all automated. They were buying every portable generator they could find and frying the smaller ones in a day with overloads. 8kw PTO driven units were unobtainium.


Last spring the power went out at my nephews house. He had $2500 worth of meat in his freezer (it would probably cost $3000 now and who knows how much next year). The power went out. We had to haul a generator out to his place.

$100/day to run a generator is nothing compared to backed up sewers, lost food inventory, or losing your farm.

 

[SecondAttempt]

I don't know where you are in our islands, but maybe one of these will work for you.

I'm in South Kona on the Big Island. I'll look into your suggestions.

My initial thought was a portable generator and extension cords. But my situation is a bit more complicated than many of the otherwise good suggestions here consider. For instance:

- I need to power a catchment water pump that is pretty far from the house, though not far from the middle pole. So I would need multiple 200 ft extension cords which seems pretty dangerous running that far in a rain storm.

- Most of our long outages are because of a tree fall or accident downing the power lines between a substation a few miles away and our house. If that happens the road is likely closed so driving to a gas station to refill tanks is not an option.

- I'm on a "spur" distribution line that serves only 6 households so we are always the last to be turned back on.

- We are not terribly concerned about short outages up to about 48 hours. We do the old Hawaiian thing and light candles and "kanikapila" (play ukulele and sing) for evening entertainment. We can dip water out of the catchment tank to bathe and flush toilets but that gets really old after a couple of days.

- I'm looking to live comfortably through an outage between 48 hours and 7 days but I'd probably size the system for 14 days with some restrictions and load shedding after 7 days like no cooking, clothes dryer, or hot water. Our longest outage was about 5-6 days I think and the road was open so we bailed and went to a hotel in town after 3 days. But there have been places where power was out for weeks or months after a hurricane or other significant event.

Anyway, I truly appreciate all the helpful information!

 

[catii]

When I kanikapila, all of our cats scatter, but our parrot loves it!

Any chance that you can tap into geothermal? I doubt there would be much permitting for one house. Small wind turbine as it's breezy over there? I'm sure you already know how expensive it is to ship batteries for storage. If you go solar PV with the Enphase IQ8 inverters, you might not need a generator, as you'll have power as long as the sun is shining.

Whatever you do, don't forget how corrosive vog is! How far are you from Pu'u O'o & Kilauea? Even the minimal amount of vog we get in Kaneohe plays hell with electronics!

 

[skyking1]

I've read through the several pages and would stick with my initial assessment of a two pronged approach.
I would put a xantrex transfer switch on the fridge, coupled to an inverter and battery.
https://www.amazon.com/Xantrex-8080915-PROwatt-Transfer-Switch/dp/B004S5Y158/ref=asc_df_B004S5Y158/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312152566480&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=1981447737698528413&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9051901&hvtargid=pla-570286925911&psc=1

2000 watt inverter

https://www.invertersupply.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1471

batteries of your choice.

Possibly a couple of solar panels. you can figure out the battery sizing from your load.
Now the food does not spoil, even if you are away. You can plug in a phone charger or whatever and keep connected, etc.
Then figure out the generator stuff and it need not be huge and automatic to take all the load, or require a bunch of effort to load shed so a smaller generator does not get taken down by too much load.

The food not spoiling is not about the cost of the food. If the trees are on the road, you won't be able to easily replace it. It is about the peace of mind.

 

[mpeirce]

I was referring to a rough average US price for LPG, not NG. After checking again right now I see it is actually around $2.67/gallon. Where I live it is well over $3/gallon. https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/heatingoilpropane/

So still about $96 per day using the national LPG average.

Huh, I know it varies a lot across geographies, but we only paid $1.99 last year and the same this year here in northern Ohio - no where close to the $2.70 listed on that website for Ohio.


Also, we have a 500 gal underground tank and were advised not to run it run dry or really less than 25% for a long period of time so that it doesn't "float up" out of the ground over time.

 

[FedRetired50]

Huh, I know it varies a lot across geographies, but we only paid $1.99 last year and the same this year here in northern Ohio - no where close to the $2.70 listed on that website for Ohio.

Before I bought my tank outright, I was paying $5+ per gallon since I was considered low-use. I'm sure that EIS average includes a lot of people in my situation.

 

[Northforker]

Huh, I know it varies a lot across geographies, but we only paid $1.99 last year and the same this year here in northern Ohio - no where close to the $2.70 listed on that website for Ohio.


Also, we have a 500 gal underground tank and were advised not to run it run dry or really less than 25% for a long period of time so that it doesn't "float up" out of the ground over time.

We paid $1.69/gallon in May 2023 and $1.39/gallon in May 2022. 450 to 500 gallon purchases both times into our 1000 gallon tank. Western Kentucky.

 

[Badger]

I thought about a generator at one time since we live in Florida and just down the street from the ocean. Since we live in a small town about .3 mile from the police and fire stations and the water treatment plant, and on a street that has been rebuilt with McMansions (except ours) the few times that the power went out in the past 40 years only lasted from 1-12 hours. If I figured in the cost of generator, installation, fuel tank, fuel, maintenance, etc. It would most likely have cost me at least $200/hour to have a generator for those outages. I figured it wasn't worth the cost. I have a couple of large coolers that hold the frozen food with a block of ice that I keep in the freezer. Everything was always frozen solid when the power went back on. Although I wouldn't mind giving a bonus to the linemen.

Cheers!

 

[SecondAttempt]

When I kanikapila, all of our cats scatter, but our parrot loves it!

Any chance that you can tap into geothermal? I doubt there would be much permitting for one house. Small wind turbine as it's breezy over there? I'm sure you already know how expensive it is to ship batteries for storage. If you go solar PV with the Enphase IQ8 inverters, you might not need a generator, as you'll have power as long as the sun is shining.

Whatever you do, don't forget how corrosive vog is! How far are you from Pu'u O'o & Kilauea? Even the minimal amount of vog we get in Kaneohe plays hell with electronics!

We're actually in the lee of Mauna Loa so we get very little wind, even in hurricanes. I don't think geothermal is a viable option.

I'm astonished how short-lived electronics are here. We are at 1300 ft so no salt spray. We did get some vog during the 2018 eruption but it wasn't too bad. We're about 75 miles from the Halemaumau caldera of Kilauea and even farther from the Pu'u O'o vent. I used to have a condo in town and could not keep a TV more than 3-4 years. We were about 400 feet from the ocean. This house seems to be much better.

 

[SecondAttempt]

Although I wouldn't mind giving a bonus to the linemen.

Cheers!

Linemen are unsung heros!

 

[SecondAttempt]

The EPA is now cleaning up hazardous materials after the Maui fires. No, not wrong thread...they are running into major problems and hazards because of all the renewable storage equipment, power walls, and so forth that they are running into. It could become a very serious problem because all those battery remains can't easily be shipped to the mainland for disposal!

 

[folivier]

Here's a tip if you suspect an extended power outage is coming. Throw a couple cases of water bottles in your freezer. Once they're frozen they'll help your freezer stay cold longer. And will give you water to drink once the municipal water system goes down.

 

[NW-Bound]

I'm astonished how short-lived electronics are here. We are at 1300 ft so no salt spray. We did get some vog during the 2018 eruption but it wasn't too bad...

YIKES!

If vog is that bad for electronics, it can't be good for your lungs either.

 

[SecondAttempt]

Here's a tip if you suspect an extended power outage is coming. Throw a couple cases of water bottles in your freezer. Once they're frozen they'll help your freezer stay cold longer. And will give you water to drink once the municipal water system goes down.

I have several gallons of water prefrozen in my freezer!

 

[SecondAttempt]

YIKES!

If vog is that bad for electronics, it can't be good for your lungs either.

Vog is horrible for lungs! Not sure what else to say except I'm glad we get very little.