A year later...another fence installation to deal with

[ivinsfan]

I despise fences. One reason I bought in this subdivision 27 years ago was that there were no fences and many mature trees. The back yards looked like a park. Now imho it's starting to look junky. I can see 3 different fences in one location (wood panels, black chain link, and silver chain link). Plus people are starting to fill their yards with 'crap'...the #2 neighbor now has a 24' extension ladder leaning up against the fence that backs to my property. Before the fence was installed, they had a huge farm or earth-mover tire there (I think they might have a kid and that was supposed to be a sandbox?) Others are putting up sheds for their overflow. Few people seem to park in their attached 2-car garages, so there are cars and trucks in driveways and parked in the street.

Property values here are the highest they've ever been (Great schools, grades K-12 all within walking distance and reachable by sidewalk), but there's been a marked shift in the denizens.

omni

This a good reason that some people put up solid fences...to block eyesores and try to keep their backyards a personal retreat..there may be a fence in your future.

 

[ivinsfan]

The new winner of the neighborhood property dispute.Judge: Owners Must Tear Down Stearns County Lake Home | KSTP.com

 

[Blue Collar Guy]

The new winner of the neighborhood property dispute.Judge: Owners Must Tear Down Stearns County Lake Home | KSTP.com

I dont like the after the fact variance that was granted, I like the judge reversed it.

When we built this joint, I even paid for a permit to replace the public sidewalk that was in front of my home, the old one looked shabby, new house new concrete all around. I told my builder to do everything by the book. Cost me more, I sleep better at night. I did have a wee problem during one of the city visits. The inspector said we needed sprinklers as the house is 3 stories up and a basement. New code. The place was almost finished. My architect argued successfully before some building tribunal that my plans were approved prior to the new law taking effect and all codes are grandfathered in . Its only applicable for new plans. We prevailed.

 

[omni550]

The new winner of the neighborhood property dispute.Judge: Owners Must Tear Down Stearns County Lake Home | KSTP.com

Years ago my then-BF and I were driving around a waterfront area on Lake Michigan, just south of Ludington, MI. This peninsula had all sorts of homes being built on it...little 1100 sq ft Cape Cods to McMansions. We saw a McMansion that appeared to have been stopped mid-construction (brick exterior walls, roof and windows were done...the inside was still roughed-in...and lots of birds were roosting inside...making quite a mess). Outside we could see rusting scaffolding, an abandoned cement mixer, tall weeds, etc. that indicated this place had not been touched in at least a year or two. We were curious as to the situation, so we asked the guy next door. He said the owners built it with too high a roof (it had a French country roofline...very tall, with a steep slope. I'm not sure of the architectural name.) Anyhoo, the local government forced them to stop construction and would not grant him a variance. Perhaps the owner thought it would be easier to ask for forgiveness than permission...who knows?

A few years later, we were back in the area and drove by to see if the situation had been resolved. The house was now completed and occupied. The builder had been forced to literally cut off the offending portion of the roof. The house looked awful...all out of proportion. Instead of this tall, sweeping roof, it had a short, dumpy roof on an otherwise magnificent brick McMansion.

omni

 

[Texas Proud]

In our area it is neighborhood associations that enforce the rules... we live in no mans land when it comes to building codes...


But, where my sister lives they have nice houses and a requirement to have a 2 car garage... well, someone decided to convert theirs to a game room and had the door bricked in with windows....

They found out the HOA was stronger than they thought... required them to convert it back to a garage.... now, I have a suspicion that they just replaced the brick wall with a new garage door and kept the game room, but it looks like it is a garage...

 

[meierlde]

I have no idea how it's done. There were a couple of owners before us (of our home) and the owners of the other property lived out of state. The copy of document itself is almost illegible and we don't really know exactly where the encroachment lies. We'd have to go down to the Recorders/Assessors Office to view the original document. A subsequent owner of the other property replaced the fence in the same location (we paid for .5 of the costs) so they certainly had no issue with continuing the agreement.

You just go to the recorders office pay the fee and the document is recorded by the Recorder. However you might want a lawyer to write it up providing conditions such as the repair of the fence that terminate the easement.

 

[omni550]

You just go to the recorders office pay the fee and the document is recorded by the Recorder. However you might want a lawyer to write it up providing conditions such as the repair of the fence that terminate the easement.

I'm curious...how does one enforce this..."a repair of the fence terminates the easement"?

omni

 

[omni550]

I think I found the corner stake!

If this is it, it looks like they installed the corner of their fence 114" (= 9.5 feet) onto my property.

Pics: distance shot of tape measure along 114" of encroaching new fence, steel rebar property corner stake* installed by surveyor 11 years ago, newly installed corner post of fence.

omni

* original stake had a yellow plastic cap on it. Assuming this is the same stake, the cap could have been lost/destroyed/removed in the last decade.

 

[Texas Proud]

Is that the whole length of your property?

Your first pic seems to appear to the naked eye that your property ends at the bushes that are back a bit... but that means nothing...

First, did you try and measure out the distance from a known stake? I know we had suggested that before... worth a try...


If the above does not give you any kind of answer, I would go to neighbor and show them the stake... and ask them to move the fence.... see what happens...

If they do not, ask them to do survey to show it is their property (will probably not do this, just a step IMO)..

Then have your survey guy come out and verify if that is the correct stake... IF it is correct, then again ask them to move it and, oh by the way here is the bill for the survey....

If that is refused then you need to find out if you can move it yourself or you need to go to court to get an order... any way it happens you should be reimbursed for all expenses paid, including survey, lawyer etc...

 

[Hermit]

Does the measurement from the other corner stake/s to this stake match with the surveyed length from 11 years ago? If it does, I would show the neighbor your documentation and the position of the survey stake and ask them if they would have the fence company move the fence to where it should be. If they have an issue with that, ask them to have a survey done. You have already had a survey done. I don't see why you should need to have it redone. If they are the kind of people that hide their junk wood behind the shrubbery so they don't have to look at it, but you do, I wouldn't worry too much about hurting their feelings. From your other posts, if they ignore your requests you will probably need to take the issue to court.

 

[Hermit]

It looks like they did not want to cut the tree down.

 

[omni550]

Is that the whole length of your property?

Your first pic seems to appear to the naked eye that your property ends at the bushes that are back a bit... but that means nothing...

First, did you try and measure out the distance from a known stake? I know we had suggested that before... worth a try...


If the above does not give you any kind of answer, I would go to neighbor and show them the stake... and ask them to move the fence.... see what happens...

If they do not, ask them to do survey to show it is their property (will probably not do this, just a step IMO)..

Then have your survey guy come out and verify if that is the correct stake... IF it is correct, then again ask them to move it and, oh by the way here is the bill for the survey....

If that is refused then you need to find out if you can move it yourself or you need to go to court to get an order... any way it happens you should be reimbursed for all expenses paid, including survey, lawyer etc...

Not sure of your question.

Here's a photo of my survey. I've marked in red where this encroaching fence and corner is (roughly). The photos I posted earlier (of 114" intrusion onto my property) are along the shorter one of these 2 red lines (One photo included the stake I found. It's hard to see as the rebar stake's rust color blends with the soil. It's at the 'start' of the measuring tape.)

"the bushes that are back a bit" encircle the base of a tree. This tree is on their property and would be, basically, close to where the "R" in "REC. & MEAS." is shown on property 115.

omni

 

[omni550]

Does the measurement from the other corner stake/s to this stake match with the surveyed length from 11 years ago?

It's hard for me to gauge the measurement between the 2 stakes that I THINK are my corner stakes, as I can't easily scale their fence and the tree and accompanying vegetation are in the way.

I'm guessing that the tree is on their property. They might need to cut down a bit of the bushy vegetation to place the fence on the lot line.

As you can see from the survey, my rear lot line is not in a straight line with the rest of the rear lot lines to the right-hand side of the survey. (As my lot is on a curve, hence the pie shape and angled rear lot line.)

omni

 

[omni550]

I just checked the township website. They have added a few amenities that weren't there earlier. FWIW, I now have #2 neighbor's name and can see that they (or their contractor) DID pull a permit for the fence.

I'll have to make copies of my survey and go knock on their door this weekend, asking if they (or their contractor) have a survey for their property.

omni

 

[cathy63]

That last photo of the plot shape makes it pretty clear. Their fence has a 90 degree angle at that back corner, and the only way that could be legal is if the rear 114" of their property is actually outside their fence line (or if the left side of their lot is outside, but that would be a huge area they would know about).

If you show them the plot map, it should be obvious to everyone that their plot is not rectangular, so either they fenced less than their lot size or more and you can ask them what they intended. Also, are you/they allowed to build fences across the drainage easement in your area?

 

[Texas Proud]

That last photo of the plot shape makes it pretty clear. Their fence has a 90 degree angle at that back corner, and the only way that could be legal is if the rear 114" of their property is actually outside their fence line (or if the left side of their lot is outside, but that would be a huge area they would know about).

If you show them the plot map, it should be obvious to everyone that their plot is not rectangular, so either they fenced less than their lot size or more and you can ask them what they intended. Also, are you/they allowed to build fences across the drainage easement in your area?

Plus 1 on this... your plat had not been shown before...

It IS obvious they do not have a square corner... they should have a plat of their property and should also be able to see that it is not square... FWIR, they are newer neighbors and so the paperwork should be at their fingertips...


BTW, the fence company probably thought it was also square and just put it up how things looked... a bad idea, but not all that uncommon...

 

[omni550]

That last photo of the plot shape makes it pretty clear. Their fence has a 90 degree angle at that back corner, and the only way that could be legal is if the rear 114" of their property is actually outside their fence line (or if the left side of their lot is outside, but that would be a huge area they would know about).

If you show them the plot map, it should be obvious to everyone that their plot is not rectangular, so either they fenced less than their lot size or more and you can ask them what they intended. Also, are you/they allowed to build fences across the drainage easement in your area?

Yes, I hope that they can see that per the survey my rear lot line is one straight line (but at an angle, compared to neighbor on lot 122) whereas their rear lot line is NOT straight but is comprised of 2 sections, offset by some angle less than 180 degrees.

I have no idea what the township rules are with respect erecting fences across drainage easements.

omni

 

[Ronstar]

Yep, a picture is worth a 1000 words. Your plat gives the indication that the fence may be encroaching on your property. Looks like the fence company assumed lot 115 to be a rectangle with roughly a 90° angle at the rear lot corner.

The rusted rebar could be a survey stake or a stake set by one of the neighbors, and therefore doesn't mean much unless it's measured location matches the dimensions on the subdivision plat. (the plat filed at the county that established the lot dimensions)

I would show your neighbor your plat and explain that you believe that their fence is on your property given the configuration of the platted lot lines vs how their fence exists.

A sure check would be to measure the neighbor's lot line out to the street. Does the measured lot line from the street to the rebar match the recorded lot distance for the line?

If the neighbors ignore you, you should contact your surveyor again to survey your back line. And then contact an attorney to take it from there.

 

[pb4uski]

+1 If you frame the conversation as the fence company mistakenly putting the fence on your property rather than trying to blame the owners then the conversation may go easier and be less confrontational. You can show them the plat and that their property does not have a right angle in that corner and that should be pretty convincing that there is a problem that "the fence company" needs to address.

Can you find the other pins? lower left corner and upper right corner?

I agree with others that the rebar is inconclusive unless you measure from the rebar to your street stake (lower left on the plat) and it is 150.64' +/- .... if so then it is likely that is the upper left corner. Similarly, if you can find the upper right pin and it is 29.49' from the rebar then that would be indicative as well.

The other thing that causes me to think that the rebar may not really be the corner pin is that according to the plat, your upper left corner pin is not adjacent to lot 115, but is rather on the lot 116 back line.... so if the rebar really is that corner pin and the rebar is inside the fence then fence encroaches not only on your lot but also on lot 116's side boundary too. Make sense?

 

[omni550]

+1 If you frame the conversation as the fence company mistakenly putting the fence on your property rather than trying to blame the owners then the conversation may go easier and be less confrontational. You can show them the plat and that their property does not have a right angle in that corner and that should be pretty convincing that there is a problem that "the fence company" needs to address.

Can you find the other pins? lower left corner and upper right corner?

I agree with others that the rebar is inconclusive unless you measure from the rebar to your street stake (lower left on the plat) and it is 150.64' +/- .... if so then it is likely that is the upper left corner. Similarly, if you can find the upper right pin and it is 29.49' from the rebar then that would be indicative as well.

The other thing that causes me to think that the rebar may not really be the corner pin is that according to the plat, your upper left corner pin is not adjacent to lot 115, but is rather on the lot 116 back line.... so if the rebar really is that corner pin and the rebar is inside the fence then fence encroaches not only on your lot but also on lot 116's side boundary too. Make sense?

Thanks, pb4uski. I like that approach, suggesting that the fence co. made an error when they erected the fence (backed-up with showing them the plat map with no indication of a 90-degree angle between their rear lot line and side lot line.)

The upper-right corner stake of my property is still visible from last year's fence brouhaha.

Finding my lot's lower-left corner stake might be a challenge. I can go out and poke around, but as it's been covered up with 11-years worth of lawn debris, finding it will be a challenge.

Here's an enlargement of the stake area (and the original photo from which it was enlarged) showing close-up of the (possible?) upper-left corner lot stake. This stake does currently lie a few inches from the new fence on lot 116's side.

As I've been thinking more about this stake sticking out of the ground, I wonder if it is "mine"? From what I recall, my surveyor installed his stakes, topped with yellow plastic caps, at ground level 11 years ago.

As the corner of this new fence appears to enclose the bulk of the 29.49' of my rear lot line, I'd have a tough time running a tape through their yard at the moment to measure from known upper-right corner stake to this "possible" upper-left corner stake as it is inaccessible to me.

I'm guessing that no survey was done by the new owners of lot 115 prior to the new fence being erected.

omni

 

[omni550]

My corner stake...found!

At last!

Poking around a bit more today, I finally spotted the yellow-capped upper-left corner stake installed by my surveyor (it has his surveyor number on the cap). It's at grade, just as when it was installed 11 years ago.

(With this new find, now I have no idea of the significance of that rebar stake I've now labeled "Mystery?" that is jutting up from the ground. Hmmmm....I wonder if it's an old survey marker for lot 115? Perhaps marking where their side lot line met their rear lot line?)

Here's the photo enlargement. If you click on it you'll easily see "My corner stake" with arrow pointing at the yellow-capped corner stake, along with the now-mystery rebar stake.

omni

 

[travelover]

I'm looking forward to seeing it all play out on Judge Judy's show.

 

[Curmudgeon]

Thanks, pb4uski. I like that approach, suggesting that the fence co. made an error when they erected the fence

And it may be true that the fence company made the error, and it may be that the fence company is financially responsible for correcting it. That, too, could make the conversation easier.

 

[REattempt]

The mystery stake is the intersection of 116, 115 and your lot.

 

[pb4uski]

That is what it looks like to me too. If that is what it is then there is no doubt that the fence company built your neighbor's fence on your property.