Daughter filing bankruptcy

[SecondCor521]

Financially, divorce will be a tough row to hoe. Divorce laws vary from state to state, but in my state in this case the unproductive hubby could ask for and maybe probably get half the assets, perhaps some alimony, and even have her pay him child support if he has the kids at all. If they divorce she will also be saddled with additional child care payments. Overall, too, with having to have two of everything (two houses, two sets of kids' clothes, two sets of kids' bedrooms, etc.), she'll probably suffer a 30% drop in her standard of living.

On the other hand, if the hubby is the unproductive and unrepentant drain on their finances, eventually -- perhaps in 3-7 years -- she'll be better off financially.

I'd agree with the others to not bail them out, like it sounds like you intend to do. I'd also say to support her emotionally if she decides to divorce him. Finally, the kids will need a lot of love and care through whatever happens, and they didn't ask for any of this. It's great if grandparents can help that way.

2Cor521

 

[growing_older]

Divorce laws vary from state to state, but in my state in this case the unproductive hubby could ask for and maybe probably get half the assets, perhaps some alimony, and even have her pay him child support if he has the kids at all.

In fact, since he appears to be the primary caregiver, he could also ask for and has a good chance to be awarded custody of the children. Many divorce courts strongly lean towards arrangements that keep whatever situation the kids are in as stable as possible.

I understand you don't care for the husband, but if their problems are mostly financial, a divorce is unlikely to help and could be far worse. If their marriage is really broken, then divorce should be an option, but money woes alone shouldn't be a reason to do something that drastic and painful for all involved (including the children).

 

[DMGO]

In fact, since he appears to be the primary caregiver, he could also ask for and has a good chance to be awarded custody of the children. Many divorce courts strongly lean towards arrangements that keep whatever situation the kids are in as stable as possible.

I understand you don't care for the husband, but if their problems are mostly financial, a divorce is unlikely to help and could be far worse. If their marriage is really broken, then divorce should be an option, but money woes alone shouldn't be a reason to do something that drastic and painful for all involved (including the children).

I wonder if it wouldn't be better if he just "disappeared" without a trace. A fishing trip far out in the wilderness might be in order at this time. Just thinking out loud, of course. But I do know just the 'right' place to 'go fishing.'

 

[quietman]

Yikes. Was this a serious request for input, or are you just looking for ideas for your new "made for TV" movie.

 

[crazy connie]

I agree with do not give them $. If close enough and you can, offer child care for a couple of months so hubby can man up. Here RN's make really good money. Could your daughter bid into shift work for a premium or pick up registry work in her off days? Life is not easy but once you have made the decision to have children and by a home and stuff it is an obligation. Could he not at least take a job at the local mini-mart and contribute that? Dave Ramsey's beans and rice does work. Think about what you see them doing on a daily basis to improve the financials. Are they recreational shoppers and we deserve a treat dine out types? Many young adults have not learned to do with less let alone do without. I have know lots of women who filed BK but still kept weekly salon appointments for hair, facials and nails. Major medical problems or unexpected job loss are about the only reason I can truly understand and condone walking away from obligations.

It sounds as if it is time for both of them to grow up.

 

[Martha]

I see this thread drifting to critiques of the husband. I see no problem with either spouse not working and taking care of the kids and home. Nice when people can afford it. The problem is spending. And he might be a jerk otherwise, but we don't know.

 

[noworkethic]

Her husband doesn't work. Just stays home with the 2 & 5 year old kids. I can't stand unproductive people.

My comment is really not in line with the subject of the thread (bankruptcy), but your comment above really jumped out at me. If he was working outside the home and your daughter was staying with the kids would you consider her unproductive? This forum seems a strange place to express opinions about unproductive people. Seems many FIREd people would fit into your "unproductive" classification. Perhaps you have very good reasons for not liking him, but don't I think this one is legitimate.

(Edit) I suspect that I would not like your son-in-law either, but for the other reasons you mentioned, not this one.

 

[FUEGO]

BK may work out well. If they can eliminate $42k in unsecured debt and get rid of 90k negative equity in the house.

Maybe get a small apartment for a while until they get their finances turned around. Post BK they may need a little help getting that going.

Regarding the husband, it may be cheaper for him to stay at home and take care of the kids versus working, paying higher taxes, and paying 2x daycare fees (at least until the 5 yo enters free public school). Particularly if his skillset is small and he can't demand a decent salary.

Although there are always options to allow him to work - the wife could do night shifts (maybe get paid more doing nursing) and the husband could do day shifts and trade off taking care of the kids (rough life but could make ends meet on a temporary basis). Or find someone else in a similar position and trade babysitting services, allowing the husband to work at least part time.

Hey, not working is fun, I don't blame the guy. But you have to be responsible for yourself and your family at the same time.

 

[Nords]

My comment is really not in line with the subject of the thread (bankruptcy), but your comment above really jumped out at me. If he was working outside the home and your daughter was staying with the kids would you consider her unproductive? This forum seems a strange place to express opinions about unproductive people. Seems many FIREd people would fit into your "unproductive" classification. Perhaps you have very good reasons for not liking him, but don't I think this one is legitimate.

Heck, with two kids they're twice as productive as my spouse and me...

 

[haha]

Financially, divorce will be a tough row to hoe. Divorce laws vary from state to state, but in my state in this case the unproductive hubby could ask for and maybe probably get half the assets, perhaps some alimony, and even have her pay him child support if he has the kids at all. If they divorce she will also be saddled with additional child care payments.

Great! Fairness demands that he be compensated for giving up the career that he might have had were it not for selflessly staying home to care for the kids. Just like the career sacrificing SAHM, you know.

BTW, most of you who are so judgmental about this have never had any kids, never paid any day care bills, never juggled your life to fill-in when you child is sick and generally know nothing about whatever reality is involved. And if you want to know what I really think, just ask.

Executive summary for any of you young men reading this is- if possible do what NY Expat did. Throw yourself into your work, enjoy a dating life, save a wad and then if you want children, move outside the US or Western Europe and start a family there. And stay put!

Whatever happens, do not believe the Feminist/Opra/DrPhil/Media bs about stay at home Dads, gender parity, etc etc. These Dads are in a very vulnerable position- socially, psychologically, and economically.

Look in the mirror. Yes, you are male. You know it, everyone else knows it, and you will never be given the margins that a woman is given. That is baked into the biological cake, and should not be lamented. For you own well being, it also should not be ignored, or lost sight of.

Ha

 

[DangerMouse]

I couldn't care less who stays home with the kids, it's the same tough job whoever does it. Lets face it with 2 kids of that age probably unless both spouses are highly compensated through their employment, most of the earnings of one would go to child care.

For me the alarm bells ring because the husband has declared bankruptcy himself. If you are the spouse at home, you need to take control of the finances.

Bankruptcy rarely takes place by accident, and to be in this place a second time indicates a lack of caring on their behalf, believing that bankruptcy is the solution to all their problems. They got themselves into it, let them get themselves out of it.

 

[crazy connie]

Being a stay at home parent will almost always be the best thing for the kids. But, when you make a commitment walking away is not a good thing. In this case the dad already filed for BK once. CC offers just came in the mail. If they both participated in the use of them or not is irrelevant IMHO. The bills came in and in a marriage you may not examine every bit of mail that comes in. But, keeping aware of what is coming in and going out is part of life. I see both of these people as responsible for the mess based on the OP's input.

Until we stop condoning bad financial behavior as individuals and as a nation the individuals who are responsible will continue to benefit from the labors of others. Personally I am tired of bailout economics both corporate and individual. I am just watching a friends 40 year old single son who makes 75K annually for a school district walking away from his condo mtg because he can move back home with his elderly debt free mom and she won't be alone. That is just wrong. There used to be a BK, foreclosure stigma and it is virtually gone. Now, it is almost acceptable to say "the economy hurt me so I walked out on my obligations."

I know I am going to a political rant now and know that a mod may shut me down so OP please accept my apology in advance. You are not the one trying to weasel out of your obligation. BUT we need more personal accountability and less paternalistic politics. More of a hand up than a hand out. Less social engineering and taxes and more work effort and jobs. Less taxes and more job creation. More LBYM and less keeping up with the Jonses. Better parenting and less toys and activities, more home cooked meals and less fast food.

Some of us may not have been the best of role models but I doubt we would be here or contemplating RE if we had practiced fiscal irresponsiblity. How can the boomers pass along financial values when so many are over extended?

I really do not want to pay another 5 or 10% in taxes so we can kiss the nations individual and collective immature financial Boo-Boo's all better.

I want all of us and our friends and families to GROW UP!!!

P.S. I also think we need to bring back the Soapbox and let's have some heated discussions. Ignoring a thread is not that hard!

 

[DangerMouse]

On further reflection, I think there are two things you could do that may be helpful.

1. Can you mind the grandchildren so both parents can work and hopefully increase their disposable income.?

2. Can you help them refinance to get out of the mortgage which is killing them?

 

[FinanceDude]

BTW, most of you who are so judgmental about this have never had any kids, never paid any day care bills, never juggled your life to fill-in when you child is sick and generally know nothing about whatever reality is involved. And if you want to know what I really think, just ask.

Amen, brother.......

Whatever happens, do not believe the Feminist/Opra/DrPhil/Media bs about stay at home Dads, gender parity, etc etc. These Dads are in a very vulnerable position- socially, psychologically, and economically.

They have been for many years. As I found out later, my late mom's family tried to take my sister and I away from my dad after she died, arguing that he worked a lot of hours and we were being raised by housekeepers. I think it spooked him enough that he rushed into marriage 2 and wife 2 faster than he would have liked.........

Look in the mirror. Yes, you are male. You know it, everyone else knows it, and you will never be given the margins that a woman is given. That is baked into the biological cake, and should not be lamented. For you own well being, it also should not be ignored, or lost sight of.
Ha

I have never minded being male........

 

[FinanceDude]

I couldn't care less who stays home with the kids, it's the same tough job whoever does it. Lets face it with 2 kids of that age probably unless both spouses are highly compensated through their employment, most of the earnings of one would go to child care.

Since you have never been in that situation, how would you know anything about it?

For me the alarm bells ring because the husband has declared bankruptcy himself. If you are the spouse at home, you need to take control of the finances.

Uh, really? Even if the spouse has a poor track record of their own finances?

 

[DangerMouse]

Since you have never been in that situation, how would you know anything about it?



Uh, really? Even if the spouse has a poor track record of their own finances?

So Finance Dude you are saying because I don't have children I am not qualified to comment on the situation? So what exactly was wrong with my statement - can you perhaps share your knowledge which you obviously think is way above what I have heard from other parents. So are you saying that I was incorrect in stating that staying home with children is a tough job? I know plenty of mothers who say it is, it's not a piece of cake like many think it is. Or are you saying that childcare is not expensive? Once again from my own family I have heard that statement and from many other families I have heard the same. Why don't you enlighten me seeing you think you are the genius.

 

[FUEGO]

I'll go on record saying taking care of your own two children isn't really that hard. Just make sure to change the DVD every 2 hrs and feed every 4. After a few rounds of that, your wife will be home to take a load off your hands (just make sure you tell her how tiresome caring for your children can be - don't let the charade die off). And when the older one yells "Daddy, lil sis just peed all over the floor again" you go and wipe it up with the pee towel. Kid-raising, daddy style.

I'd gladly take daddy day care duties over what I do for a living if it paid equally well.

edited to add: That's a brief summary of parenting, and I may be overlooking a thing or two somewhere in there.

 

[DMGO]

It should be such a simple thing. You buy something, charge it on a credit card, and when the bill comes, you pay for it online, or mail a check. That's how I always did it. Don't pay late, don't pay any interest, it's just a convenience, nothing more, nothing less. My particular CC gives me a % back in a rebate, for EVERY purchase I make using the card. Some people (including my family, obviously) make minimum payments, pay HUGE interest rates, and then, file bankruptcy. I can't stand it, I just can't stand it. Thinking more about that 'fishing trip', far out in the wilderness. Looks like that might be the 'right' thing to do.

 

[Janet H]

I'll go on record saying taking care of your own two children isn't really that hard. Just make sure to change the DVD every 2 hrs and feed every 4. After a few rounds of that, your wife will be home to take a load off your hands (just make sure you tell her how tiresome caring for your children can be - don't let the charade die off). And when the older one yells "Daddy, lil sis just peed all over the floor again" you go and wipe it up with the pee towel. Kid-raising, daddy style.

I'd gladly take daddy day care duties over what I do for a living if it paid equally well.

edited to add: That's a brief summary of parenting, and I may be overlooking a thing or two somewhere in there.

Ya think??

It's really hard to have family that don't live up to your personal expectations. DMGO asked what to do to help...

Personally I don't think you can reasonably expect to change how other folks run their lives. Maybe acceptance is the best you can hope for. Be nice to the kids be civil to the husband and sis. Tend the relationships instead, not the business aspect of their lives.

I have a deadbeat relative who occasionally calls and asks for an assist. To date, I've kept my opinion about this situation to myself. His sibs still care about him, regardless of the crumby way he runs his life and I don't think it's my place to try to change their relationships. Doesn't mean I have to like it....

 

[FinanceDude]

So Finance Dude you are saying because I don't have children I am not qualified to comment on the situation? So what exactly was wrong with my statement - can you perhaps share your knowledge which you obviously think is way above what I have heard from other parents. So are you saying that I was incorrect in stating that staying home with children is a tough job? I know plenty of mothers who say it is, it's not a piece of cake like many think it is. Or are you saying that childcare is not expensive? Once again from my own family I have heard that statement and from many other families I have heard the same. Why don't you enlighten me seeing you think you are the genius.

Nothing wrong, see my PM.........

When we had two kids in childcare the cost was $1400 a month. Kids are not cheap and never will be. We don't know enough about OP's situation, we need to know more. Most are attacking him as a deadbeat SAHD.......

I think THEY need credit counseling...all this talk of "get rid of that bum" are premature and overblown........

 

[DangerMouse]

FD, no worries, thanks for the PM.

I'll agree we can't assume that he is a deadbeat dad because he stays at home as I know I would never say that because a woman was staying at home.

One thing I know I assumed is because he had declared bankruptcy previously, he was at fault. However, how do I know that it was not the wife who ran up the debt?

I was wrong in stating what I did because truthfully I did not have sufficient facts to reach the conclusion I did.

 

[Cattusbabe]

DMGO, just a quick question. Did your daughter come to you asking for assistance with her finances or her man? If not there is not a whole hell of a lot you can do but watch from the side lines. Yes, it is hard watching those you love struggling and venting here may take some of the pressure off but like it of not it is her life and her man and she may not appreciate you running him into the ground.

Take it from someone who has had to tell more than a few well meaning family members to butt out of my business. Most people really do not know what goes on inside of a marriage just by looking at it from the outside. In the final analysis these two adults will just have to work this out themselves.

 

[DMGO]

DMGO, just a quick question. Did your daughter come to you asking for assistance with her finances or her man? If not there is not a whole hell of a lot you can do but watch from the side lines. Yes, it is hard watching those you love struggling and venting here may take some of the pressure off but like it of not it is her life and her man and she may not appreciate you running him into the ground.

Take it from someone who has had to tell more than a few well meaning family members to butt out of my business. Most people really do not know what goes on inside of a marriage just by looking at it from the outside. In the final analysis these two adults will just have to work this out themselves.

No one came to me asking for anything. What happened was, my daughter suddenly told us that she was in deep trouble with her credit cards. She's been spending (wasting, in my opinion) money on fancy dinners out, short vacations, and everything they buy has to be top-of-the-line stuff. When I inquired about the entire financial picture, that's when I found out about the negative amortizing mortgage, and the fact that son-in-law was up to his eyeballs in credit card debt again. The most ridiculous thing with him, is why would ANY credit card company give credit to a bum who just recently filed bankruptcy? That just gives him license to steal from them next. He's 35, and by the way, I kind of like the kid, I just don't like the way he has no personal scruples. Killing him is not one of the family options, at least, not yet. I've decided to pay for my daughter's bankruptcy legal fees ($2K), and hopefully, that will end this fiasco.

 

[steve88]

filed bankruptcy? That just gives him license to steal from them next. He's 35, and by the way, I kind of like the kid, I just don't like the way he has no personal scruples. Killing him is not one of the family options, at least, not yet. I've decided to pay for my daughter's bankruptcy legal fees ($2K), and hopefully, that will end this fiasco.

I wish I have a father in law like you. You are a good forgiving person.

 

[crazy connie]

DMGO,
I am not passing judgement as we all need to do what we can for our kids and society. I have in the past provided bailouts for both of my children for legal fees as well as college and daily needs as well as splurges. That is a parents perogitive. Please see that they both watch, listen to, see the Dave Ramsey program so this is not a continually repeated cycle of bad behavior. The problem will never be resolved unless folks learn and modify the behavior that creates it IMHO.

Please update us in about 6 months post BK and let us know the progress.

Ditto to steve88's comments!