Family Life and Female Officer?

Sam

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Hi all,

I realize that several members of this forum are or were in the US Armed Force.  I would really appreciate if you can share your experience with me.

My daughter has been accepted to the US Naval Academy.  She has also been accepted to 2 other reputable universities with sufficient scholarships so that money is not a major issue.

My daughter loves the Academy, and so do I, for many reasons.  Leadership, academic challenge, moral and physical quality.  But I find myself awake at night wondering what would life be for her as an officer.  As a woman, how will she balance her career and family responsibilities?  What do other female officers do if they were assigned to a far away post, or to a long duty tour?  Husband?  Kids?

I guess what I'm really asking is if it is possible to have a happy family and be a female officer at the same time.

Sam
 
Attending the academy does not lock you into a 20 year career.
If she likes the idea she should go for it.  As time marches on she will quickly decide on whether she can balance her family etc with military life.  If not, it's time to leave, but she'll figure it out.
BTW, I'm assuming she is now single.  Also, military Moms are hardly unique these days, many are very successful at it and I'm sure there are plenty of horror stories available as well.
 
I would be really concerned about sending a daughter to a service academy, because I think there's a measureable risk in it.   The risk is, have you heard the various news reports, in particular from the Air Force Academy, but really, all of them about the problem with rapes....  I dont recall specific figures, but they were talking 100s of rapes that go unreported and the majority of the ones that are reported, are either ignored, or at worst, simply result in the discharge of the accused, usually through negotiation and them voluntarily leaving.

I guessed to myself why that is.  Maybe its because the guys cant leave the campus until they're juniors and i'm sure you recall what it feels like to be a 18-20 year old male.   Maybe its an expression of upperclassmen superiority.  Maybe its bartering/blackmale.  Or perhaps some hard core, but twisted in the head men, are still bitter about females being let into service academies, so they feel justified in their actions.

I personally work with a female who completed West Point.   But i can only fathom what she likely had to deal with during her tenure there.   I hope nothing, and i'd never ask her, but who knows.

Please dont be offended.   I'm not trying to unnecessarily scare you, but just to make sure you're aware of this risk.  BTW, I was once an AFA cadet myself;  I left after completing basic training and 2 months or so of school.   I wasn't making the grades i wanted.

Azanon
 
Sam said:
My daughter loves the Academy, and so do I, for many reasons. Leadership, academic challenge, moral and physical quality. But I find myself awake at night wondering what would life be for her as an officer. As a woman, how will she balance her career and family responsibilities? What do other female officers do if they were assigned to a far away post, or to a long duty tour? Husband? Kids?

I guess what I'm really asking is if it is possible to have a happy family and be a female officer at the same time.

Sam

Sam .. let me say right up front that I do not believe women should be involved in the military unless it is a safe desk job.

Combat, if there is to be any, is a man's job.

Having said that, realistically how can a gal in the forces, who can be shipped to some land half a world away, maintain a decent satifying family life?

As for kids somewhere down the line, I think not.

If your daughter is intent on following this path then there isn't a bloody thing you can do. Best case scenario she can look forward to a single life and let's all hope nothing untoward ever happens to her.

I am not thinking of sexual assault here. That is bad enough. I am thinking of the worst that can happen.
 
Sam,

- First, about the issue azanon raised (sexual assaults at the service academies)- I feel certain a young woman entering any of the service academies today has a reduced risk of being sexually assaulted than she would at almost any other educational institution. Yes, the USAF academy (and the other academies, periodically) have had incidents of failure to support cadets who have been assaulted, but right now the spotlight is ON this issue and nobody will be getting away with anything. We have a big probem with sexual assaults on campus throughout our university systems, and I'd be very surprised if the academies, at any time, approached the rates of civilian schools. (And I'm no academy grad--I was a four year ROTC cadet at a large public university). Today, I'd guess that the issue has received so much attention at the academies that she may experience some problems with backlash--I'd guess many male cadets will be reluctant to put themselves into a position that could be construed as pressuring a female for sex (as a Dad--that's how you and I want 'em to think!)

- Family life: frankly, you can't have a "normal" family life and have a military career regardless of your sex. She'll be working long hours (in many jobs), subject to deployment for various periods (a year is not uncommon) away from her family. Now, just because military family life isn't "normal" I would not say it was necessarily bad. In large part, women in the military are now the "equal" of men--they are in positions of tremendous responsibilty, and are doing very well at them. This is a boon and a curse. They are cut no more slack than men are for getting home for sick kids, birthdays, etc. The senior female military officers I knew had what I would consider to be unsatisfactory family lives. Many were single. To get to the top, to be given a position of great responsibility, requires that you make the sacrifices and decisions that are not compatible with a stable family life. I'd also say that most of the senior male officers had poor family lives. It works best if the spouse is willing to/good at doing most of the child raising. In general, it is still easier for men to find a spouse like that.

- Since you are obviously looking ahead to her days as a mom/wife, it is worth pointing out that she'll be working beside and have the opportunty t meet/socialize with an exceptionally fine group of men. There are jerks, too, but I'd say the group has a disproportionate number of selfless, good guys. The military is certanly no dating service, but of course she's likely to get involved with those she meets at work. If she's discrete and uses common sense (e.g. doesn't date her boss or anyone in her chain of command) things can be fine. We should probably hear from some female service folks, but I'd guess that she'll be less likely to associate with civilians.

As JPatrtick notes--she can leave the Army after she's paid back her service time. West Point is an outstanding education/developmental opportunity for a person with the right temperment and determination. As for me, I was happy to have gone to a regular university.

samclem
 
mike-1 said:
Having said that, realistically how can a gal in the forces, who can be shipped to some land half a world away, maintain a decent satifying family life?

The same way a male in the military maintains a decent satisfying family life.
 
eridanus said:
The same way a male in the military maintains a decent satisfying family life.

Yup, one of our good friends is managing to make it work quite well with a stay-at-home husband.  He loves staying home and golfing all day taking care of the kids, and she loves her job - even after a deployment to Afghanistan and two to Iraq.  Both think the time apart sucks, but if she were a military spouse (like me) instead of a military officer herself, she'd be dealing with the same issue - there's nothing unusual about their setup except for the gender reversal.

BTW, I agree that 4 years at the Academy doesn't lock you into a military career - in fact I wouldn't even be thinking that far ahead until she hits the fleet.  Lots of people move on to bigger and better things after spending 4 years on active duty: if she likes it she'll find a way to make it work, and if not she'll change jobs after a few years like most  in their 20's (with good training and a "free" college education behind her).

 
 
I don't think that it will be as bad as you fear. It used to be bad for women, though, by all accounts. I think that the schools have learned from the scandals--I hope.

I was stationed at West Point many years ago. One can get a very good education at a service academy. I couldn't get either of my kids, boy or girl, interested though.

I was out long before women came into the academies, so I have no personal data.

As I recall, the obligation was four years after graduation. How many schools do you know where you have a guaranteed job after graduation?

It takes a special kind of person to make it through a service academy. Your girl will find out quickly if she is one or not. They can leave if they find it is not for them. As I remember, there was about 15% attrition in "Beast Barracks" in the summer before school starts, and another 15% over the next 4 years.

It is a remarkable opportunity for anyone. I hope your girl has a positive experience.

Cheers,

Ed
 
Two - the little niece(who married the Marine lifer) and my oldest nephew's wife - both Naval Academy.

It's a different culture. Both became civilians after their tour while hubby's are in for life.

The third - youngest nephew will marry in July - both Naval Academy.

All Navy - except for the little snot - who married 'THE MARINE!"

To repeat - it's a different culture - my inclination is to advise - go forth and get the experience.

Civilian advice(like mine) is probably off the mark.

I think they all turned out great - but I'm prejudiced.

heh heh heh
 
A Military academy and a University are poles apart, hopefully your daughter has what it takes should she decide to enter the Academy.

Discipline is the rule and the lifestyle, not goofing off parties and panty raids.

Rape should not be a concern, as we are witnessing at Duke these charges can be levelled anywhere, and the definition of rape has been expanded to include Unwanted Attention i.e asking a girl out in a manner she deems offensive.

Combat is a real issue, are you willing to allow your child to enter a War Zone, is she, and in saying that, I would rather not be in a confrontation with the enemy with females in my unit.
 
- First, about the issue azanon raised (sexual assaults at the service academies)- I feel certain a young woman entering any of the service academies today has a reduced risk of being sexually assaulted than she would at almost any other educational institution.  Yes, the USAF academy (and the other academies, periodically) have had incidents of failure to support cadets who have been assaulted, but right now the spotlight is ON this issue and nobody will be getting away with anything.

A reduced risk?  LOL.    The risk is much higher.  Did you go to an academy too?  Remember, i have seen the service academies first hand.   All of the ingredients are there in addition to those you'd find at normal universities.

Let me just put it like this.  If i had a daughter, she wouldnt be going there.  I feel that strongly about it, again per personal experience.

Ok well i said my peace so, i hope you make a wise decision in guiding your daughter.
 
eridanus said:
The same way a male in the military maintains a decent satisfying family life.

Really? Apart from the possibility of being blown to bits or coming home maimed, is a male really any better off?

I think not, particularly if he has children.

Kids need a dad around when growing up.

EVEN MORE SO A MOM.


PS my anti-war, anti-military, anti-gun, anti-invasion, anti (so called) peacekeeping, anti-invasion, anti-meddling, anti-foreign lands occupation, bias should be evident here?

:D.
 
Sam, if your daughter has standing scholarship offers at other prestigious institiutions, I think she would be out of her mind to go to a service academy. 4 years of indentured servitude, or nothing demanded of you when you are done with your degree, hmmm, not too tough a choice.

Then again, if my kids have anything to do with the military, I will have failed as a parent.
 
Sam, if your daughter has standing scholarship offers at other prestigious institiutions, I think she would be out of her mind to go to a service academy.  4 years of indentured servitude, or nothing demanded of you when you are done with your degree, hmmm, not too tough a choice.

I'm glad brewer brought this up, because it reminded me of something.  Once I was in one of the dorm rooms with several of my classmates (4th classmen, plebes at the time), and we were discussing why we came (to the academy).   It was almost unanimous in that room that most came because of the "scholarship"; because it was free, paid even.   I mentioned to them that I just "wanted" to come, but my dad could afford and was willing to just send me to a regular college too.   When i said that, more than one of them said i was crazy not to take that offer instead.     I happen to agree with them now.

Its not worth it.   They constantly feed you the BS about how you're the best of the best, blah blah blah, while you're there.   I guess that's to minimize the amount of people that say f* this and leave. 25% eventually leave anyway, most by personal choice (and they dont look back).

Today, i work with 2 service academy graduates in my place of business, one also a GS-12, one a GS-13, but much older than me.    Yeah, they got those elite degrees, but i dont feel like they have any edge on me today.    A service academy degree is way overrated IMO.

Azanon
 
My dad was an air force officer. I think most of us kids would have preferred not moving around so much as kids. Being separated from you extended family isnt good in my opinion.
 
Hmmm

Page two - Prof Jeff(a male) dropped out of the Academy - went civilian, got his Phd and is a prof in Chem. E at a large midwest U.
 
Sam,

I am going to do an about-face on this one and defer to Azanon. He knows what it is like on the inside and his experience has got to be more recent than mine. Listen to him.

Brewer made a very good point about scholarships.

If she has a taste for some aspects of the military, as you mentioned, she can try ROTC. More flexibility and probably a safer way to go.

Don't worry about what the active duty life would be like until she actually gets to the point of having to decide to commit. ROTC should give here a good introduction up until then.

Best of luck.
 
If she has a taste for some aspects of the military, as you mentioned, she can try ROTC.  More flexibility and probably a safer way to go. 

Don't worry about what the active duty life would be like until she actually gets to the point of having to decide to commit.  ROTC should give here a good introduction up until then.

ROTC would be a much better way to do it, i agree.  That way, she could have a normal college life and not be exposed to potential unique risks and pressures that females face there.

BTW, did she go after the full ROTC scholarship concurrently with the Academy application?   What was strange was I tried for both, and ended up getting in the Air Force Academy, but i didn't get the "full ride" ROTC scholarship.  Go figure.
 
maddy, My Wife is an Air Force Bat, she totally agrees with you, she said the worst part was making friends then getting transferred.
 
Maximillion said:
...My Wife is an Air Force Bat, she totally agrees with you, she said the worst part was making friends then getting transferred.

I have to. Life as a bat really is tough these days. Especially a Canadian bat.
 
Sam said:
My daughter has been accepted to the US Naval Academy.  She has also been accepted to 2 other reputable universities with sufficient scholarships so that money is not a major issue.
Well the first step should be:  congratulations!  It's wonderful to have that many choices.  It's also quite a testament to being the parent of a teenager who must have despaired many times that she'd never get you guys straightened out...

Sam said:
My daughter loves the Academy, and so do I, for many reasons.  Leadership, academic challenge, moral and physical quality.  But I find myself awake at night wondering what would life be for her as an officer.
Spouse and I talk about this all the time.  Life for women in the armed forces is about the same as it is for WASPs, Hispanics, African-Americans, Asians, Catholics, Jews, Moonies, gays, lesbians, most Democrats, and even Marines aboard naval vessels.  

Sometimes it's fun, a lot of times it sucks.  Months of boredom punctuated by minutes of sheer panic.  Times when you're so proud of your organization and your people that you think you'll levitate, other times when you wonder whether you should just beat yourself unconscious from the shame of an abysmal performance or whether you should beat up your alleged "leaders" first.  You're usually paid enough to take care of your family but there are times when it's never enough money.

Above all it will be the most challenging thing she can ever claim to have done.  Other goals in life will be achieved (or not) but they'll all be based on the skills, integrity, leadership, time-management skills, and perseverance that she'll develop.  For the rest of her life she'll be able to say about her day:  "Phew, that sure sucked, but I remember this time at USNA that sucked even worse..."

Sam said:
As a woman, how will she balance her career and family responsibilities?  What do other female officers do if they were assigned to a far away post, or to a long duty tour?  Husband?  Kids?
I'm predicting that she'll manage them better than most men, but that's just my personal bias and possibly not objective.  My wife was smart enough to marry me (or smart enough to overcome even that) plus raise a kid.  We know plenty of other women naval officers, many of them married to men naval officers, who have done the same.  In the worst case it sure helps to have grandparents or other family who can take over for a month or two every few years.  (Isolated incidents.)  Regardless, the same prioritization & time-management skills learned on the job can help a lot with the family.  If it stops being fun, leave the service ASAP.  

Female officers on hardship tours do pretty much what the men do.  Work out a lot.  Some drink a lot.  Everyone spends a lot of time swapping e-mail & letters with their families, and gazing at their pictures.  Spending money foolishly.  Reminiscing with shipmates about what they're going to do when they get home, and telling each other about their families.  Many families feel a little jealous when the deployment's over because their long-lost and newly-found spouse/parent is still calling their deployment roomate to catch up instead of devoting all their attention to their family.  Sometimes the shipmate bonds seem tighter than family ties.

If you're asking if sex rears its ugly head, of course it does!  Whether she's single or married she'll have about as many opportunities to get laid as the men.  Doing it within the chain of command is about as smart as drunk driving, though, and equally as deadly to one's career (& perhaps marriage).  I suspect that women have better judgment in these areas than men.  Many of the sex-scandal stories at the service academies are steeped in underage drinking and blackout memory losses.  It's probably like that at any college, but it occurs far less at service academies (although it's far more newsworthy).  I can't tell your daughter how to hide alcohol in Bancroft Hall but she's probably smart enough to not drink herself into a coma with the football team.

Oddly enough, having both genders in the workplace dramatically raises the behavior standards and completely avoids a lot of locker-room stuff that can turn hostile and even harassing.  I greatly preferred working in mixed-gender commands because guys behave more professionally and spent less time behaving like guys.  Spouse says the same about working in all-women commands-- when there are guys around the women are actually nicer to everyone and less vindictive.  (I really didn't want to know about the rest of being in an all-woman command.)  I think one of the smartest moves the submarine force could make would be to add women to submarine crews, but that's a separate rant topic.

Speaking as a career-oriented naval submariner, I'm extremely glad that I didn't have to compete for fitness-report rankings against women, especially my spouse.  Most of them would have wiped the conn with my comparitively substandard performance.  I joke with naval couples that I married my spouse so that I'd never have to compete with her for promotion.  (It's a joke-- luckily we're in different year groups.)

Sam said:
I guess what I'm really asking is if it is possible to have a happy family and be a female officer at the same time.
Yes.  My spouse is living testament to that, and I know a lot more married naval couples than divorced ones.  However, like anything else worth having, it's a heckuva lot of work.  Again USNA equips one with far more skills than most colleges to handle those tough situations.

As a parent of a veteran, Sam, you're gonna spend the rest of your life worrying.  I can't help you with that because I don't know what that's like.  I worry when my spouse is at sea or on travel but I also know that she's mean & nasty smart enough to stay out of trouble and better at handling it than I am.  

But I would worry less about life at USNA than life at a big, disorganized, free-for-all college where people don't always look out for each other, let alone have high goals & standards.  Keep in mind that your daughter's attendance at USNA is no longer your choice, and if you interfere then she will hold it against you for the rest of your life.

I know quite a few USNA grads from the Class of '80, the first class with women, and I went to sea with the subsequent classes.  Generally the '80s was a few years of "Lookee there, a GURL!!" and several subversions of the anti-drug motto "Not on my ship".  However today's admirals and & senior enlisted have served with women for decades, and most of them have adult daughters of their own.  The leaders are mature enough to stop seeing women as objects and to see them as professionals.  They're also responsible enough to be held accountable and appropriately punished if they don't see it that way.  Women are running the academy-- CAPT Kathy Shanebrook '80 is in charge of the Math & Science departments and just missed being Commandant-- and USNA knows how to handle gender issues much better after a generation's experience.  I think gender is settling down to the same level as racism, intolerance, drugs, alcohol, and failure to study for mid-term exams.

By the way, your daughter doesn't really have a choice to attend USNA anymore either.  If she passes up this appointment and doesn't put herself through Plebe Year, then she'll spend the rest of her life wondering if she's tough enough to handle the experience.  Experiencing it and deciding to quit is completely different from never making the attempt in the first place.  She can't back off from this challenge any more easily than she can decide to change her sexual preference or her skin color.  I've talked with dozens of people who started & dropped out of USNA before finishing the first year, and their stories are all filled with the same refrain of "I wish..."

If she passes up USNA, that's it.  Her one chance is gone forever.  She may finagle a nomination in future years but she'll never be offered an appointment again.  

If she accepts USNA and later decides to quit, the other colleges will be very happy to have a USNA student.  They know the service academies, they know what they're getting, and they're delighted to claim USNA's former students as their own.  She'll also have the opportunity to return to the civilian schools for other degrees or graduate programs, something that doesn't exist at USNA.  Heck, the Navy may even be willing to pay her to do it someday.

Your daughter is probably already doing it, but she needs to be able to meet the Academy's physical standard for pushups, situps, runs, and pullups.  Especially the pullups, and I'd recommend striving to exceed those standards by 50%.  Passing with the minimums is not perceived to be good enough to avoid the attention of the PT experts.

She should also read "Annapolis Autumn" by Bruce Fleming.  It's a very balanced perspective on the Academy from a guy who can't be stripped of his tenure but who is definitely not a fan of USNA.  She also needs to do that in case she encounters Professor Fleming for her Plebe English class.

PM me if you want your daughter to have the e-mail addresses of Kathy or a midshipman in '07.  They'll be happy to talk to her.

As for you guys thinking that women don't belong in combat, and most of you are definitely guys in every pejorative sense of the behavior:  If you've never served with a woman in combat, then keep trying.  Someday you'll meet the right woman and you'll understand.  Until then you don't have a clue to what you're proclaiming.
 
Nords, that's a great summary from an informed perspective, but I guess it all boils down to a very simple proposition for me that I don't see expressed thus far in this thread:

Do I really want to encourage my daughter to go to a school that will result in her having to work several years in a job where she stands a good chance of being put in harm's way?

I know what the answer is for me.
 
brewer12345 said:
Do I really want to encourage my daughter to go to a school that will result in her having to work several years in a job where she stands a good chance of being put in harm's way?
Good point, Sam, and your daughter also needs to understand that her primary job, beginning with Youngster Cruise after Plebe Year, will be to kill people & break things.  She'll probably be far away from the front lines, as far as anyone knows where that line is drawn, but midshipmen have received posthumous awards for exceptionally meritorious behavior.  It ain't all a taxpayer-funded freebie.

I can't argue with Brewer, but I can vouch that by the time you're done with the training pipeline you will fear no evil because you think you're the meanest thing in the Valley of Death.  Luckily your leaders have a more balanced opinion, and after a deployment or two you'll also have the greatest respect for avoiding anything leading to that Valley in the first place.

I will point out that our kids will react very strongly to our attempts to dissuade them from such a decision, and our efforts may drive them into it even if they didn't want to do it in the first place.  Spouse has always said that she'll drop our kid in her tracks if she applies to USNA, but I take the approach of expecting that an informed consumer will make the right choice.
 
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