Family Life and Female Officer?

[laurence]

Azanon, you went to the Air Force Academy, Nords graduated from the Naval Academy, are you saying there wouldn't be any parallels in your experiences when you say he shouldn't talk about "stuff he knows nothing about".  He also retired military, so I think he might have some relevant gems on say, retiring from the military....?

My friends at work who graduated from military academies all rated their experience positively, but this is obviously not a scientific survey.

Nonetheless, I think the coverups of sexual assault at military academies is well documented.  But this leads me to something I want to clarify.  You speak of sexual frustration, but it's also been well established that rape is an act of violence acted out sexually, not a sex act acted out violently.  

Just like more access to prostitutes wouldn't lower the number of rapes in a city, so would having access to the bar scene near academies have any affect on the animosity these young men would feel about some dang women invading their domain.  It's not about the sex.

 

[azanon]

I don't think making them better individuals is the point.  Its an attempt to make them better soldiers.

It is also one of the many reasons I want nothing to do with any military anywhere...

I think you're dead on Brewer.  But there is a penalty paid in that process.  One of the things I did excel at was the Pugel stick competition.  When i made it to the finals, it was the first time I realized what they had done/were doing to me.  They filled me with hate and bitterness, and I remember taking that out on everyone that dared to stand opposite of me.  I also remembered myself becoming gradually more callous and numb, and slowly turning into the hateful person opposite of me yelling in my face.

I had many fights with my older, taller brother growing up.  He won every one, except the last one;  the one he picked with me 1 month after my discharge.   I am so glad my dad got to us in time because I'm not sure when i would have stopped hurting him.   I didn't have a scratch on me from that.   They definitely did their job;  they made me a killer.  And I hate them for that.

Azanon

 

[azanon]

Nords graduated from the Naval Academy

Unless i completely misunderstood, Nords did not graduate from the Naval Academy. Yes, they are practically mirror images of each other (West Point, Naval Academy, Air Force Academy), so certainly any graduate would be in a strong position to opinion about them.

 

[laurence]

He did, I promise. Retired Lt. Commander, drove submarines around.

 

[azanon]

Retired Lt. Commander, drove submarines around.

I saw that part, but you know there's ROTC and officer's candidate school too.

 

[laurence]

I saw that part, but you know there's ROTC and officer's candidate school too. 

Yep, I wasn't drawing a correllary between the two, simply summing the facts I can confirm from spending a couple weeks in his stomping grounds. Plus we have people in common, it's a surprisingly small community.

 

[azanon]

Yep, I wasn't drawing a correllary between the two, simply summing the facts I can confirm from spending a couple weeks in his stomping grounds. Plus we have people in common, it's a surprisingly small community.

Well, he can chime in here and clariy that point (cause i'm too lazy to go look for proof), but I'm pretty sure he is not a Naval Academy grad. My point is he could have become an officer via ROTC or OCS, and neither of those are anything like the service academy. Ok, well, there may be some similaries at OCS, but still........

 

[Sam]

AV8, if anything, i think my opinion is mostly getting discarded, as was obvious by the opinions that Sam chose to acknowledge. 

Azanon,

I definitely did not discard your opinion.  I read each and every reply.  I must have omitted you because of the short amount of time you spent in the academy.  In retrospect, however, any experience however long or short has its worth.  My apology.

Sam

 

[REWahoo]

Well, he can chime in here and clariy that point (cause i'm too lazy to go look for proof), but I'm pretty sure he is not a Naval Academy grad. My point is he could have become an officer via ROTC or OCS, and neither of those are anything like the service academy. Ok, well, there may be some similaries at OCS, but still........

Azanon, I cannot speak authoritatively for what it is like to receive a commission through a US Military Academy like Nords and others here did. But I can speak for what it is like to do so via OCS.

I was commissioned via Air Force Officer Training School (OTS) and years later served as an instructor at OTS. I would not attept to compare the level of scholastic education provided by three months of training to that of 4 years in an academy. Those who attend OTS have already earned an undergraduate degree or more and have 4 years or more of maturity under their belts. However, the basic fundamentals of taking a civillian and molding them into a military officer do not differ much from what I know of Academy training.

You described it this way:

If you want a life of hell and isolation, then go there. If you want to forgot how to socially interact in the real world, go there. If you want to learn how to be a pompous jerk, go there. If you want to lose all your former friends, go there. If you want to be told how great and elite you are daily, go there.

The fact that you obviously still do not understand the rationale behind why you were subjected to this type of environment confirms that you definitely made the right decision by not pursuing a career in the military.

 

[azanon]

I definitely did not discard your opinion.  I read each and every reply.  I must have omitted you because of the short amount of time you spent in the academy.  In retrospect, however, any experience however long or short has its worth.  My apology.

Flowgirl, Maddy,  Nords, and Leslie did not go to a service academy at all.   Maybe it was some other reason.  Apology accepted nevertheless.

 

[azanon]

However, the basic fundamentals of taking a civillian and molding them into a military officer do not differ much from what I know of Academy training.

My dad went to OCS too and served 4 years in the US Army, and left a Captain, so I certainly got his perspective of OCS.   He also tries to equate it to the academy.   What he and you both know is that you're only the equilivant of a 4th class cadet at OCS for less than the time I was at the academy; just 2-3 months.  In other words, you only have to put up with the s*** for just a little while.  That's not that hard to do.   

All in all, 1 year at OCS is a mild sacrifice.  4 years at an intense academy is much harder, IMO.

Again, if Nords is an actual Naval Academy grad, then I'll withdraw my criticism of his characterization.  But I dont think that's the case.

The fact that you obviously still do not understand the rationale behind why you were subjected to this type of environment confirms that you definitely made the right decision by not pursuing a career in the military.

I fully understand and I've already acknowledge that above.  They made me a killer.  Job well done.   They only needed 4 months to do that.  Where we differ is I dont much enjoy being a trained killer like maybe you do.   

I think killing people is a sad, pathetic solution to problems and an embarressment on anyone that resorts to it.  I think it should be a last resort many times over.   Its a shame grown people in the 21st century still solve problems this way.

 

[HFWR]

Was never in the military; I refer you to the "stupid little kid" thread...

Idealistically, I agree that war is a lousy way to solve problems, ceteris paribus. Problem is, most times all things are not equal. In the spirit of "A Few Good Men", I'm happy there are enough who are ready and willing to serve. I'm suspicious of politicians and the military-industrial complex, as I see them as self-serving and self-replicating...

 

[azanon]

I'm happy there are enough who are ready and willing to serve.

You know, I am too.  I just think they should be used a lot less often.   Of course I would have no quarrel with us defending ourselves from an aggressor.   But I think a lot of times that is just overstated.

I had no problems with the swift response in afghanistan immediately after 9/11, because we actually pinpointed the enemy there that maliciously attacked us.   But this crap in Iraq (2nd time around) i never supported and I wonder daily how many American men will need to die before we realize they dont want us over there, we can never win this war, and these people will never know peace; at least not in my lifetime.

 

[AV8]

I really do not get the negativism approach they take there.  I failed to see how yelling in someone's face for a year and behaving in a hateful and arrogant way was making me a better person.

For the record, this has changed at USAFA (can't speak to West Point or Annapolis).  One of the many changes made over the last few years was to recognize that this approach is not an appropriate or effective leadership style (to bore you with terminology the military refers to this as toxic leadership).   And in the end they are trying to produce effective leaders.

Sam, I wish your daughter luck with her decision.  I thought Nords advice to have her (and maybe you) talk with a current Annapolis female midshipman and the senior officer he knew was an excellent idea.  She might also want to talk to a recent graduate to get their perspective.

Let me know if you have any specific questions (outside of political) and I'll do my best to help.

AV8

Edit: I should add that you probably still get yelled at during basic training the summer before starting your freshman academic year. Not quite sure though, and I'm sure it is highly regulated and monitored.

AV8

 

[Jarhead*]

The fact that you obviously still do not understand the rationale behind why you were subjected to this type of environment confirms that you definitely made the right decision by not pursuing a career in the military.

"I know what a lot of you are thinking.  I'm going to go through training, fly million dollar aircraft, and after a few years, I'm going to get out after the military has spent hundreds of thousands dollars training me, and apply for a cushy job with the airlines.  That may happen for a few of you, but you've go to get through me first."  D.I. to flight candidates.

The militaries mission is to turn out the best fighting men possible.  Thinking otherwise is not realistic.  Discipline and sense of purpose is time tested and workable.

Beings young people are no longer subject to "mandatory" military life, the choice is theirs.

Understanding the difference between the military and civilian pursuits is key.

 

[Maximillion]

I understand that they are trying to make the Training less rigorous, to soften up on the DI's training?

This is my rifle, this is my gun, one is for fighting, one is for fun, 30 times around the Parade Square.

The bad old days.

 

[AV8]

I understand that they are trying to make the Training less rigorous, to soften up on the DI's training?

The training is just as rigorous physically and mentally. It is the leadership methods used by the to train the new cadets that has changed.

AV8

 

[Maximillion]

"All right Lads, you are still members of His Majesty's Army and you will dress proper like the Soldiers that you are."

My Dad was telling my Sons that these were his orders as a 19 year old trying to slow down the advance of the Nazi Army, his weapon, a 303 and 3o Bullets.

He said he knew it was serious when the Sergeant ordered(every Man for himself".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/765004.stm

 

[laurence]

Flowgirl, Maddy,  Nords, and Leslie did not go to a service academy at all.   Maybe it was some other reason.  Apology accepted nevertheless.

I just want to make this abundantly clear.  Nords DID go to the Naval Academy.  Just setting the record straight.  If I was ambiguous in my earlier posts, I want to make sure I am not here.  I have met the guy and know people in common, including a retired Navy Captian Owens who also went to the Naval Academy.

 

[azanon]

For the record, this has changed at USAFA (can't speak to West Point or Annapolis).  One of the many changes made over the last few years was to recognize that this approach is not an appropriate or effective leadership style (to bore you with terminology the military refers to this as toxic leadership).   And in the end they are trying to produce effective leaders.

Wow!  I completely didn't follow the college in that process.  It was certainly the change I thought they needed to make.  Well great.    Obviously, i fully agree with that.

I think I could also live with the getting yelled at during BCT only, but that s*** that went on in the halls during the school year and well as during meals just went overboard sometime.  I ate freakin candy bars in my dorm for 2 months because i couldnt remember enough news articles at mealtime to satisfy the upperclassmen.  That really sucked and my diet really suffered. (The convinence store only sold junk food; I presume intentionally, so you were forced to forage in the messhall. I tried to get the store clerk to order me some ensures, to no avail).

I just want to make this abundantly clear.  Nords DID go to the Naval Academy.  Just setting the record straight.

Alright, alright.  I guess, like AV8, we're just different people that went to the same place, but just saw it differently.  I agree, its not for most people.   I'm in the "most people" category.

 

[laurence]

I never had any interest in even applying to any of them, and I'm quite sure my grades were not sufficient to be accepted. The extent of my expertise in this area has already been exhausted on this thread. The one thing I can say is I am universally impressed by the character of my coworkers who did graduate from academies. Perhaps because no stress here is enough to compare....

 

[Nords]

Time to set the record straight.

Good morning, everyone!  Geez, guys, I was only asleep for seven hours.  What the heck happened?  Let's try to recap.

Again, if Nords is an actual Naval Academy grad, then I'll withdraw my criticism of his characterization.  But I dont think that's the case.

First off, Az, let me say that your reconciliation with TH filled me with hope.

Nords, you really need to stop talking about something you know nothing about.   Well over half of the entering freshman class graduate.   I trust AV8 to confirm that.

But then I realized that it was only reconciliation with TH.  When you misread my post, perhaps instead of attacking my credibility, you could have asked me what I was trying to say and pointed out what you thought was my error.

I'm well aware that over half of the service academy classes graduate.  However I've never seen any studies of what number make it a 20+ year career, and how many of them do that in the Reserves vice on active duty.  It'd be an interesting study to read but I guess DoD hasn't found it worth the money it would cost to acquire & collate the data.  I doubt service academy grads hang around any longer than ROTC, and I bet OCS has the highest longevity.  Not the results DoD wants the taxpayers to see.

Az, it would have been appreciated if you'd posted a link to a study backing up your point.  Instead you chose to attack me on an issue that you actually misunderstood.  An apology appears to be in order.

AV8, i'm compelled to at least respect your opinion on the sexual miscondut since you are an Academy graduate.   But I dont agree with it.   
His USNA discussion was all over the place and i found very little of it applicable to my actual experience.  He reads books about it.  I was actually there.  And for the specific point i called him out on (his claim that less than 10% of freshmen graduate), he's wrong.  AV8 can confirm that over half of entering freshmen graduate.  Maybe he's thinking of the Navy Seals, hehe.

His career in the Navy I have no quarrel with his experiences.  But I find most all of his characterizations of the Academy to simply be inaccurate, at least from my brief experience.

Unless i completely misunderstood, Nords did not graduate from the Naval Academy.  Yes, they are practically mirror images of each other (West Point, Naval Academy, Air Force Academy), so certainly any graduate would be in a strong position to opinion about them.

I saw that part, but you know there's ROTC and officer's candidate school too.

Well, he can chime in here and clariy that point (cause i'm too lazy to go look for proof), but I'm pretty sure he is not a Naval Academy grad.  My point is he could have become an officer via ROTC or OCS, and neither of those are anything like the service academy.  Ok, well, there may be some similaries at OCS, but still........

Flowgirl, Maddy,  Nords, and Leslie did not go to a service academy at all.   Maybe it was some other reason.  Apology accepted nevertheless.

Again, if Nords is an actual Naval Academy grad, then I'll withdraw my criticism of his characterization.  But I dont think that's the case.

Again, Az, all you have to do is ask me.  I've read a lot of books about USNA because they mean a lot to me.  You've chosen to put up quite a few posts explaining to the rest of the board what I can't have done.  A couple people have tried to correct you, based on their knowledge of me, and you brushed them off.  For example, Laurence and I have had dinner a couple times during his Hawaii trips.  Sam, who impresses me for his ability to read between the lines in a very short time, asked me straight out if I was an Academy grad.  You could have asked them, too, how they could be in a position to affirm that I'm a USNA grad.  However you appear to have chosen another way to handle the situation.

But since others are being chastised by you for knowing what you assumed to be false, let me correct your mistaken impression. 

I entered USNA in July '78 through a Congressional nomination.  I'm not sure which congressman it was because I got nomination letters from all three of them and I was reluctant to mess up a good deal by asking too many questions.  I believe we had 1328 show up at Induction Day and, if my memory is correct, 1047 graduated.  I'd have to look up those numbers to be sure of it, but the attrition rate of 21% was considered pretty typical.

I spent the four years in 12th company in 3rd wing, 2nd deck of Bancroft Hall.  That's right over the Main Offices and only a short distance away from being able to launch model rockets from the top of the Rotunda down at the security guard's desk.  But I never actually did that, I just heard stories about it from one of my squad leaders (Joe Unger '79).

I finished Plebe Summer ranked 19/38 in my company.  This was quite a surprise to me since I'd graduated tops in my high school class of 350+ with a 4.00 and had expected to breeze right through.  It turns out that I wasn't as hot as I thought.  I spent the rest of my time at USNA trying to climb back up the rankings but didn't get as high as I'd hoped.

Thanks to my high school teachers I validated quite a bit of the Plebe Year courses and was able to start taking third-class subjects.  My physics prof, a LCDR Lyons, was unusual for being a woman.  (Back then they still wore a seersucker-striped uniform that really stood out from the crowd of "blues" worn by the male officers.)  Her stories of shipboard visits made quite an impression on me for being a trailblazer.  I also joined the Airborne Training club because I wanted to be a Marine and I thought the Army's jump school would be a great place to start.  However I had issues with authority (today we call it Obstinate Defiant Disorder) and got across the breakers with the firsties running the PT program.  Due to their constant attention and their attempts to make me quit the program, by the time I qualified for a jump school billet I could pump off 100 pushups without pausing.  To their credit, although they were jerks they were professional jerks and they awarded me the billet that I'd earned. 

I got through Plebe Year more or less in the middle of the pack.  I was one of the guys in the second ring of Plebes when we finally pried the dixie cup off Herndon.  (Class of '79 had cut it into six pieces and glued them to the peak of the spire.)  The rest of that week was pretty much an alcohol-soaked blur.  By then I was a member of the Pep Band (we entertained at football game tailgaters) and the Drum & Bugle Corps (we went to Mardi Gras that year) so I'd learned quite a bit about drinking like a drunken sailor.  I had a serious alcohol-related incident (UA, intoxicated, riding in a car, out of uniform, the mid driving drunk forced another car off the road, the whole thing made the newspapers).  My company officer, CAPT Tony Armbrister USMC settled for making me explain myself to him, an experience I vowed never to repeat.  Luckily he transferred later that summer but many years later I was honored to attend LTCOL "Armtwister's" retirement ceremony.  We had a good laugh about how much I'd beat myself up on his behalf.

3/c year ("Youngsters" at USNA) was a low point as I struggled to find a purpose in life.  (The Clash had a great song, "Should I Stay Or Should I Go?" that became the 3/c anthem.)  I'd finished Benning's jump school with the Iron Mike trophy but the Marine life needed to be a lot better than the Army way.  After leaving Georgia I spent my summer in New London aboard a submarine that eventually went to the Bahamas to train prospective commanding officers.  We did everything that submarines can do and we did it all at least 12 times, once for each PCO.  By the time I left I was no longer a Marine wannabe-- I was a submarine diehard.  (Sorry, Jarhead.)  Back at USNA I was drinking quite a bit trying to keep up with the rest of the midshipmen and the D&B was traveling to all the football games (more partying).  I did a helicopter jump but packing parachutes took too much out of my drinking liberty time so I dropped that hobby.  I squeezed out a 3.0 GPA and my fair share of demerits but I got through it.

2/c year I hit my stride.  I'd met the midshipman who later consented to be my wife, the chemistry curriculum was starting to get interesting, and I was taking more nuclear physics.  I nailed a 4.00 one of the semesters and my academic rank was climbing, but there were issues with leadership & conduct.  I'm pretty sure that there aren't any more beers stored in the overhead of room 3208 (alcohol in Bancroft Hall is a big bad no-no) but someday I'll go back and check.

1/c year was pretty nice.  Spouse and I spent a week of summer break down on Ocracoke Island, I was in charge of admin for the D&B, and after four years of losing we had finally managed to squeak out a win over the USAFA D&B.  Navy football did some pretty amazing things that year with my companymate Eddie Meyers and also with Napoleon McCallum (who I believe was in '83 but then graduated in '84) so we went to the Liberty Bowl in Memphis.  But we still got home for a couple weeks to meet the family before going back to finish my last semester.  I did a Trident Scholar project and was selected for temporary duty with the scientists at the Naval Research Lab after graduation.  Graduation week was a disaster.  It rained while the D&B was trying to film an episode of a Bob Hope special so that took two whole days, all my relatives were taking up all my spare time which left nothing for moving out of Bancroft Hall and into my Alexandria apartment, and spouse & I were working on a long-distance relationship that needed a few more years to smooth out.

I got through USNA with a 3.6 GPA and an overall ranking of 93, academically 63.  (Yes, TH, I had to look those up.)  It was high enough to graduate with distinction but not high enough for the goodies.  I didn't make the post-graduate programs but I'd persuaded Admiral Rickover (three days before his retirement) that I was worthy of the submarine force.  I eventually passed the physical and, once out of Bancroft Hall, I even managed to start getting my drinking under control.  In retrospect I'm amazed that I didn't get labeled as Level III (alcohol-dependent) for inpatient treatment, but that was the culture of the times.  In today's military I never would have made it that far down into the beer bucket.  I think.  I've spent the last 25 years wondering how I would have done at USNA if I was sober, and I'm not going to spend the next 25 pondering the same question.

I hope you get the point, Az, but I'm writing this for the other posters who may be curious.  I hope you make your peace with your experiences someday but frankly you echo the sentiments of many others who left the academy before finishing Plebe Year.  I've learned to control my drinking and my challenging of authority.  You can change too.

I'd also like to thank Laurence, REW, Sam, & AV8 for their support.  I'd like to think of myself as a long-term member of this board and I'd also like to give back some of the investment that so many of my mentors made in me-- especially when it wasn't too clear that would be such a good idea.  If I can help other high school kids make a service-academy decision then I'm happy to share.

           -- Doug Nordman, LCDR USN RET
              Class of '82

 

[azanon]

The one thing I can say is I am universally impressed by the character of my coworkers who did graduate from academies.  Perhaps because no stress here is enough to compare....

I admit being a bit baffled myself at the high character of the two academy grads I work with, and folks like AV8 and nords, who are also obviously of high character.  It just seems in such stark contrast to the hate and arrogance I saw spewed from the mouths of many of the upperclassmen there.

 

[azanon]

Nords, it must suck to be complimented by the person you just slandered.  Now I'm sort of confused as to whether i should take it back.

Again, Az, all you have to do is ask me.  I've read a lot of books about USNA because they mean a lot to me.  You've chosen to put up quite a few posts explaining to the rest of the board what I can't have done

Nords, the only think i specifically said i disagreed with you on was beliveing you said that less than 10% graduate.  It was 10% make it to retirement?  Ok i misunderstood and i'm sorry.   Was writing those 7 lengthy paragraphs and taking back your opinions on me really necessary?

I am damn bitter about my personal experience at the academy.  That is fact, and i will never take that back.  If you want to reconsider your opinion of me because of that, or because of one misunderstanding, then have at it!

I got through USNA with a 3.6 GPA and an overall ranking of 93, academically 63.

Wow.  I was flunking 2 classes and had a D in a third when i left.    They crushed me academically.  I was 5 of 35 in BCT though (Pugel stick beater upper, and I shot expert on the firing range, hee!)

..........

Anyway, I hope we're good Nords.  I'm just have very strong feelings about it and its hard for me to be very contained about it.  If his daughter decides to go, I hope it will be a positive experience.  I will take no pleasure in him reflecting on things i said or "I told you so's" if his daughter calls him crying on the phone in August.

You have an impressive resume Nords.  That's very impressive.  Please cut me some slack.  I took a lot of emotional damage from my experience there, so I'm probably not entirely rational when i talk about it.

 

[LovesLife]

Sometimes I feel like a brown shoe in a tuxedo world.