Family Life and Female Officer?

[azanon]

(if I may change the subject, momentarily)

Nords, how can you be so accomplished, yet now be a proponent of Early Retirement? It just seems like overachieving would fly in the face of "bailing out early".

 

[brewer12345]

(if I may change the subject, momentarily)

Nords, how can you be so accomplished, yet now be a proponent of Early Retirement?  It just seems like overachieving would fly in the face of "bailing out early".

Dude, give it a rest.

 

[azanon]

Dude, give it a rest.

I can send him a pm if you prefer.  I ask questions publically if i think the answer would be of interest to someone besides myself.   I understand overachievers. I also understand lazy people like me. But I dont understand people who are both at the same time.

If you're tired of the thread, may i suggest you just not visit it anymore?

 

[brewer12345]

I understand overachievers.  I also understand lazy people like me.  But I dont understand people who are both at the same time.

That probably explains why you don't get along with TH, Nords or me.

If you have an issue with Nords, I can't help but think that a PM is the way to go. Cat-fights don't generally make entertaining reading for the rest of us.

 

[azanon]

That probably explains why you don't get along with TH, Nords or me.

If you have an issue with Nords, I can't help but think that a PM is the way to go.  Cat-fights don't generally make entertaining reading for the rest of us.

I dont get along with you, TH, or Nords?  Speak for yourself.  This is news to me.  I'm genuinely curious of the answer.   That makes it not a catfight, and a perception error on your part.

I dont feel like Nords and I are in a state of strife yet, and TH and I made up. You want to not get along again?

 

[brewer12345]

OK, whatever. Have a nice life.

 

[azanon]

OK, whatever. Have a nice life.

......

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

When you misread my post, perhaps instead of attacking my credibility, you could have asked me what I was trying to say and pointed out what you thought was my error.

You wanna borrow my sig?

I noticed right away that you said that you doubted 10% of academy grads make it to RETIREMENT, while Azanons ranting was based on GRADUATION. Which is not what you said.

And I dont know a dang thing about the military. But I do know how to read, and attempt to read what people say before running on for three pages about why its wrong and impugning the knowledge and character of a fellow poster.

On the occasions where I read something wrong and go balookas, when apprised of the incorrect reading, I usually apologize.

That seems more sensible than continuing the argument, saying its "semantics" that someone completely misread what you said and inserted their own words or meanings.

I found myself reading this thread and whacking the page down key at an alarming rate. An "ignore user" feature would appear to still be a useful option...or some bouncers.

 

[Nords]

Sometimes I feel like a brown shoe in a tuxedo world.  

I think when you see mids in action you'll notice the tuxedos aren't as elegant as they look.  One USNA superintendent's message (for several years) was "Excellence without arrogance".  Someday we'll get there.

Did you know that "brown shoe" is a term for naval aviators?  They used to be the only ones allowed to wear that color with their khaki uniforms, and surface warriors had to wear black shoes (guess what SWOs were called).

Submariners are despised by both communities because at sea we wear sneakers.

Ok i misunderstood and i'm sorry.

Thank you, apology accepted.

Was writing those 7 lengthy paragraphs and taking back your opinions on me really necessary?

Yes, because apparently there's some confusion over why I did so.  Anyone who's interested now has enough info in my post to go verify that I'm who I claim I am and that I did what I claim I did.  Again, Az, this isn't about you or your opinions, it's about getting the facts out to clarify your earlier statements.

I am damn bitter about my personal experience at the academy.  That is fact, and i will never take that back.  If you want to reconsider your opinion of me because of that, or because of one misunderstanding, then have at it!
Please cut me some slack.  I took a lot of emotional damage from my experience there, so I'm probably not entirely rational when i talk about it.

Well, Az, I can understand your feelings but I can't condone your behavior toward other posters.  I'm encouraged by your making up with TH but it's just as discouraging watching you attack other's statements instead of countering them with constructive facts of your own.  Your reputation here is a product of your old posts just as much as your recent behavior, and it'll take quite a few of the latter to make up for the former.  

I'm sorry you took so much hassle from USAFA, but IMO you've spent far too much of your life being bitter about it.  You need to process that experience and deal with it, and I don't think that's accomplished by the apparent rage that you sometimes seem to direct at others.  As Dr. Phil would say, that's not workin' for ya.  I've talked with many people who've left service academies as you have, and in general they're better for the experience when they've dealt with it and used it as a basis to move forward to good things with their lives.  Compared to them, again in my opinion, you don't seem to have done the same.  If there was a support group for service academy attendees they'd have to hold their meetings in a stadium, and perhaps you'd benefit from finding someone to discuss it with.  

Anyway, I hope we're good Nords.

Cautiously optimistic.  Again, I put this info out there for the other posters' consideration, not just yours.

I will take no pleasure in him reflecting on things i said or "I told you so's" if his daughter calls him crying on the phone in August.

Oh, I'm pretty sure that's gonna happen more than once, and it won't wait until August.  I did a bit of that myself but I got through the experience one freakin' day at a time.  

Actually I quit the Academy over a thousand times while I was there, but I kept showing up the next morning instead of following through.

(if I may change the subject, momentarily)
Nords, how can you be so accomplished, yet now be a proponent of Early Retirement?  It just seems like overachieving would fly in the face of "bailing out early".

First off, "accomplished" happened because I showed up every day and stuck with it.  Sometimes I even took the advice of the people who were trying to show me how to do things.  What may be seen as "overachieving" is an embarrassing characterization of what I see as bullheaded persistence with an addiction to adrenaline and an extraordinarily high tolerance for pain.  Once I grabbed hold of a challenge I was not going to let go of it.  (Another way to put it would be "If those miserable SOBs appointed as my alleged 'squad leaders' could get through USNA, then I can too."  I used that analogy for two more decades-- and a few COs-- during my career.)  Naval leaders have failed miserably from those bullheaded characteristics and it took me years to learn that there's a difference between persistence & obstinacy.  One day I may even get my other copy of my DNA, my daughter, to understand the concept.  I think she's seeing that happen at tae kwon do, where you show up for every lesson unless you're too badly injured to benefit from it.

I hated something just about every day at USNA and I picked up a whole lifetime supply of psychological baggage from it, but it did bring me together with my wife and it did give me the tools to achieve ER.  I think I set the baggage down a few years ago-- from my wife's behavior I know I have.  So although USNA is a better place to be from, not at, I owe it a lot.  I would have turned out much worse had I attended a civilian school at that stage of my life, and the flames would have been spectacular.

Second, Az, from some of your earliest posts you've seemed to equate ER with "bailing out early".  I think ER is a scary process of changing from chasing a paycheck to figuring out how to be responsible for your own entertainment, and I think it's more difficult than just showing up for work and having your priorities set by others.  Now I can have my priorities set by my family and sometimes even by me.

I think that ER is just one more overachievement.  I've done something which, as far as we can tell, very few other veterans even realize they can do-- let alone try to do.  I wouldn't have set much of an example for the rest of my shipmates if I'd stayed until 30 (O-4s are generally required to retire at 20 anyway) and staying active was certainly a bad example for my spouse and our kid.  IMO I didn't "bail early", I just advanced in a different direction.  

When I attended Monterey they used to tell us "You all know how to operate in accordance with the warfare manuals.  Now we're going to teach you how to develop the next set of manuals."  I spent 24 years learning how to live my life in a fairly structured society.  Everyone leaves the service eventually, dead or alive, and now I'm living my life according to the criteria that are important to me & my family instead of from Naval Regulations.  I think ER is one of my better achievements to date, and a fine compliment to the skills that USNA equipped me with.  Maybe one of these days I'll write my own manual.

If I try to tell any of my personal acquaintances that I'm lazy, they just laugh at me.  They know how hard I work to make things appear effortless.  I have a very restless mind and way too many interests and I actually have a hard time pulling back from something I'm involved in, but luckily those old skills of prioritization & time management keep me out of trouble.  Well, OK, my spouse is pretty good at getting me back on track too.

The time I've spent on this board is just one facet of dealing with an experience that I've never attempted before, and my way of learning from the wisdom of those mineshaft canaries who are leading the way.  I also really enjoy writing & teaching, and this board gives me the chance to do both.  Besides, some of you haven't heard all of my sea stories yet...

BTW our daughter is eligible for a presidential appointment to USNA.  My understanding of that is no competitions, no nominations, just meet the requirements & pass the physical.  (But I could be wrong.)  It'll be interesting to see what she decides to do with her birthright.  I think she already "gets it" about the ER part.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Go, Nords!!!  

Az- I think you really don't realize how abrasive you come across.  Truly you do come off offensively.   You seem to have some serious issues.  

You can add to this group without alienating people, can't you? You're an intelligent guy, please try.  

Jane

 

[azanon]

I noticed right away that you said that you doubted 10% of academy grads make it to RETIREMENT, while Azanons ranting was based on GRADUATION. Which is not what you said.

And I dont know a dang thing about the military. But I do know how to read, and attempt to read what people say before running on for three pages about why its wrong and impugning the knowledge and character of a fellow poster.

I apologized for misreading it. What more do you want me to do?

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

Any chance of you stopping by to steam clean my carpet? Cuz I'm going to have to do it otherwise.

 

[azanon]

Any chance of you stopping by to steam clean my carpet? Cuz I'm going to have to do it otherwise.

I'd laugh, if i was in a good mood today. I'm not though.

I saw what you said Jane. I'm about to finish reading Nords.

Enough kicks in the stomach guys; i hear you.

 

[azanon]

Wow, that was a good post Nords.   Thanks for answering me, i was seriously interested in your perspective on my question.

I did get some good out of the USAFA.   It was certainly a wakeup call.  From Validictorian, think-i-was-a-bigshot, to humility and life smacking me in the face hard.   Yeah i recovered and went on to get a few degrees and good job, a great wife, etc, but it did do some permanent damage deep down inside me.   I wish i could pinpoint it like surgery and just cut it out, but that's not so easy.  I just know that it did me a lot of good, and a lot of harm at the same time.

I also do have a problem with authority.  Its one of the top reasons I'm after ER.   I dont enjoy answering to people.  I am my own God, and anyone that thinks otherwise is just fooled either intentionally by me or is suffering from dillusions.

Azanon

Oh, I'm pretty sure that's gonna happen more than once, and it won't wait until August.  I did a bit of that myself but I got through the experience one freakin' day at a time. 

Actually I quit the Academy over a thousand times while I was there, but I kept showing up the next morning instead of following through.

When i threw in the towel, so to speak, it was the first time for me.  OMG, i so broke down and tried to hide when it happened (speaking to my father).   They were so cruel at times.   It was just bigger than me, and that was really hard for me to take. My vunerability was just my raw intelligence level. I got in with borderline scores, and it was exposed, so to speak, eventually.

 

[Sam]

Re: Time to set the record straight.

I'd like to think of myself as a long-term member of this board and I'd also like to give back some of the investment that so many of my mentors made in me-- especially when it wasn't too clear that would be such a good idea.  If I can help other high school kids make a service-academy decision then I'm happy to share.

           -- Doug Nordman, LCDR USN RET
              Class of '82

Doug,

Thanks for helping.  I appreciate the time you spent sharing your experience at USNA and in the Navy.

Incidentally, we both started college in 1978 and both graduated in 82, although I believe you're a couple years younger than me (I wasted one year in Vietnam, and another year in a Malaysian refugee camp.)  You're now FIREd, and I still working   But I'm most definitely not bitter.  I can only wonder what my life would be now if I stayed in Vietnam or failed in my attempt to get out.

Sam

 

[Sam]

Sam, I wish your daughter luck with her decision.  I thought Nords advice to have her (and maybe you) talk with a current Annapolis female midshipman and the senior officer he knew was an excellent idea.  She might also want to talk to a recent graduate to get their perspective.

Let me know if you have any specific questions (outside of political) and I'll do my best to help.

Thank you AV8.  I'm pretty sure I'll have more questions.  Definitely not political ones.

Sam

 

[Eagle43]

Good Posts, NORDS.  

The anti-military guys ought to leave this one alone.  Pick on somebody easy, like GWB or Dick Cheney.   I think for the most part that service academies are excellent training grounds for what they want to produce; a highly-trained military officer.  If a person is not cut out for military discipline, then don't go, but don't condemn the military academies for doing what they're set up to do.  

 

[brewer12345]

The anti-military guys ought to leave this one alone.  Pick on somebody easy, like GWB or Dick Cheney.   I think for the most part that service academies are excellent training grounds for what they want to produce; a highly-trained military officer.  If a person is not cut out for military discipline, then don't go, but don't condemn the military academies for doing what they're set up to do.  

Why not? If I don't care for the military, why would you think I'd be a fan of the service academies?

 

[REWahoo]

Why not? If I don't care for the military, why would you think I'd be a fan of the service academies?

Careful Eagle43. You don't want to get old brewer wound up. You know the old saying, "Hell hath no fury like a pissed off pacifist". :

(Sorry brewer, guess I've been hanging around TH too long. )

 

[Nords]

Why not?  If I don't care for the military, why would you think I'd be a fan of the service academies?

Actually when people like Brewer are fans of the service academies, that's just when we should start to worry about what we're teaching their inmates students.

I'm only about a third of the way through Bruce Fleming's book, Brewer, and he makes you look like a hardcore warhawk. He sure has USNA pegged.

He first came to national attention with a PROCEEDINGS essay (that's the magazine of the U.S. Naval Institute) saying that the Academy's equal-opportunity admissions policies were putting too many dumb & illiterate people in his English classroom. He's digging himself a similar trench with his book, but it's enjoyable all the same. He's a tenured English professor so theoretically USNA can't fire him, but I doubt he'll be offered the department chair anytime this century...

 

[cute fuzzy bunny]

(Sorry brewer, guess I've been hanging around TH too long. )

You say that like its a BAD thing...

 

[Nords]

Re: Time to set the record straight.

Incidentally, we both started college in 1978 and both graduated in 82, although I believe you're a couple years younger than me (I wasted one year in Vietnam, and another year in a Malaysian refugee camp.)  You're now FIREd, and I still working   But I'm most definitely not bitter.  I can only wonder what my life would be now if I stayed in Vietnam or failed in my attempt to get out.

Well, I don't think you've wasted anything, as evidenced by your kids.  And you're at least a couple languages & a lifetime of experience ahead of me.

Talk about adversity building opportunities.  My father-in-law worked with a couple (South) Vietnamese technicians who came to CBS' Washington bureau from Saigon in mid-1975 with pretty much just the clothes on their backs.  They started boosting their English skills with the Sunday morning political talk shows and worked their way up the pay scale.  One day one of them asked my FIL whose permission was required to buy a house for his family, so my FIL & crew explained the concept of the great American investment rental property.

At first PB & PJ were incredulous ("We can do that anytime we want to?!?"), but the crew had created & unleashed a couple of monsters.  Those guys spent the next 20 years dumping their CBS paychecks into apartments, restaurants, bars, storefronts, you name it.  They probably lease half of Georgetown by now.

So they're ER'd now, too, technically, but I bet they're working a lot harder than they were at CBS...

Keep us posted on your daughter's decision!

 

[Eagle43]

Why not?  If I don't care for the military, why would you think I'd be a fan of the service academies?

But, of course.  This is a forum and you have free speech.  Protected by the very military that you seem to loathe.  So, be my guest and go get 'em! 

 

[FlowGirl]

I think Azanon makes an important contribution with his Academy experience - it is definitely not for everyone.

My husband is actually very anti-Academy probably because of similar problems with authority - "I don't want some turd telling me what to do just because he's a year older." Taking crap from a salty Marine DI who actually spent a couple of tours in the fleet, and for only 3 months was infinitely more tolerable. And we're talking about someone who went through boot camp after turning down a top 10 law school then spent several years in Marine Recon, plus transition to OCS and The Basic School, and was tops at nearly all. Not being able to handle or liking the Academy is not a sign that one would make a bad officer.

Spouse actually does a lot of enlisted to officer counseling and tries to steer nearly all of them away from the Academy. His basic attitude is that if you're going to do a career in the military, take the opportunity to go do something else for 4 years - interact with the hippies and radicals, learn to be by yourself, take art classes, get out there and figure out if this is really what you want, etc. For some reason a lot of these guys think the Academy is the only good school they are capable of getting into and so get stuck on the idea.

With that said... some of our best friends are Academy grads and nearly all of them enjoyed the experience.

 

[Nords]

Spouse actually does a lot of enlisted to officer counseling and tries to steer nearly all of them away from the Academy.

I think any enlisted can do far better than duplicating the boot camp experience for an entire year-- or more. However some enlisted, especially those within a couple years of EAOS, chose USNA for the junior college boost before they left to pursue their GI benefits. Hey, good for them-- they paid their dues.

Some commands really accelerate the college process-- even getting the profs to teach at the command if possible-- and once you get a degree you can go straight to OCS. Our department sent 4-5 instructors a year to OCS (or to OTS!), which worked out to about 10%, for five straight years. One of them delayed until he completed his master's degree.

My nephew the Army Ranger, 6'4" & 225 pounds, after two tours in Afghanistan & one in Iraq, found USMA's version of plebe year to be pretty relaxing. For some reason no one wanted to get into his face. He does enjoy the Combat Weapons Team. He's not very happy about the academics, though, and he figures that a bachelor's in history is as easy as it's going to get.