Massive earthquake in Japan-tsunami warning

[Gumby]

I see, thank youk. So can they or are they sampling the surface ground, parking lots, etc. nearby? The stuff cannot hide, so it seems that all people need to do is take the instruments and start looking around, as if they were looking for lost rings on a beach.

There must be something I do not get about the difficulties involved.

Ha

Yes, I'm certain they are now sampling the areas around the plant and downwind and will continue to do so. But, as far as I can tell, there has not been a substantial release of contamination. We know there has been some, because U.S. helicopters flew through the cloud and were apparently mildly contaminated. (they were subsequently decontaminated)

 

[haha]

Yes, I'm certain they are now sampling the areas around the plant and downwind and will continue to do so. But, as far as I can tell, there has not been a substantial release of contamination. We know there has been some, because U.S. helicopters flew through the cloud and were apparently mildly contaminated. (they were subsequently decontaminated)

OK, thank you again. So we should be getting some good information before long, from what they say and what they do. I doubt they would try to pull a Russky Chernobyl trick and lie; just wouldn't be prudent.

Ha

 

[RetiredGypsy]

I see, thank youk. So can they or are they sampling the surface ground, parking lots, etc. nearby? The stuff cannot hide, so it seems that all people need to do is take the instruments and start looking around, as if they were looking for lost rings on a beach.

There must be something I do not get about the difficulties involved.

Ha

Are there reports stating that there are difficulties involved, or that they aren't actively mapping out or concerned about the spread of contamination, or simply don't have the manpower or coordination right now? I haven't read anything about that outside of the news on the reactor sites themselves.

 

[haha]

Are there reports stating that there are difficulties involved, or that they aren't actively mapping out or concerned about the spread of contamination, or simply don't have the manpower or coordination right now? I haven't read anything about that outside of the news on the reactor sites themselves.

No, not that I know of. I was just wondering why more of that information isn't coming out yet.

Ha

 

[clifp]

It is incredibly difficult to figure out what is actually happening at Fukushima by reading news reports. The nuclear industry uses very precise terminology, because it is very important to be precise about what you are describing. Journalists are not so precise. In the first instance, journalists are not trained in this area, don't know basic physics and engineering concepts and can't properly explain them. Accordingly, they conflate concepts and use the wrong terms. Almost as important is the journalists' overwhelming urge to sensationalize.

Gee I thought grenades and atom bombs were the only things that close counted . I image this must be frustrating for trained nuclear engineers to hear journalist prattling on knowing most of them had troubles passing physics for poets.

One of the things I am grateful for is the forums like this are filled with people who actually understand things like this and take the time to explain it. Your 4 paragraphs on radiation explained more than listening to several explanations on TV and then trying to use Wiki to try and sort out REMs and milli-severts.

In the long run, I hope the world of journalism evolves from people who look and sound good on TV, or perhaps write well, to the situation where you have people who are experts in field and are good at explaining things.
I think CNN's Sanja Gupta's is my vision of the ideal journalist of the future.

 

[M Paquette]

No, not that I know of. I was just wondering why more of that information isn't coming out yet.

Ha

The information collected is sort of technical and dry. It doesn't make good headlines. I suspect the radiologic crews are too busy measuring, plotting, and otherwise working the problem to spend much time trying to educate the press.

I'm very sure that there have been folks running around with air samplers and various instruments to keep track of what, if anything is leaking.

The levels of contamination are low. The US Navy helicopter crew picked up detectable levels of contamination, and picked up a radiation dose equivalent to what they'd get from the potassium in 40-45 bananas.

 

[RetiredGypsy]

And already the despicable people are trying to grab attention from this. Way to go there, former Aflac duck.

 

[Nords]

Thanks, Gumby, among the Japanese PR lying to the media, the translation errors of technical nuclear vocabulary, and the CNN stupidity filter, it's been a little difficult to figure out the facts.

I've been jonesing for a good schematic with dimensions-- and particularly elevations. Is it possible that these plants were designed with their core primary-coolant inlets or outlets too low? Not enough water covering the core before the decay heat started boiling it away? Do they even know if the control rods (or what's left of them) been fully inserted?

I suppose it would be overly optimistic to hope for an accurate map of the vapor plume [-]escaping[/-] released from the containment buildings...

I'm very sure that there have been folks running around with air samplers and various instruments to keep track of what, if anything is leaking.
The levels of contamination are low. The US Navy helicopter crew picked up detectable levels of contamination, and picked up a radiation dose equivalent to what they'd get from the potassium in 40-45 bananas.

I've been waiting to read about the announcement on the aircraft carrier: "All hands in the engineering department muster topside with radiacs for flight deck survey."

On a more serious note, I'm hoping that some smart PR nuke at Bettis or GE will step up to say "And that, Congressman, is why we need to fund the pebble-bed reactor..."

 

[ls99]

FWIW from BBC:

Key points

1. A new fire broke out inside reactor 4 at the Fukushima Daaichi nuclear plant, which was damaged in Friday's earthquake and tsunami - TV pictures of rising smoke suggest it may still be alight
2. Radiation levels remain too high for workers to approach the four reactors

Also:

1. 0117: Live Japanese television pictures appear to show white smoke still billowing in the area of the building housing the No.4 reactor at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, despite reports that a new fire there was under control.

Time is GMT

 

[Zoocat]

Some scientists protested, and ultimately quit, over the design of these reactors back in the day.

Fukushima: Mark 1 Nuclear Reactor Design Caused GE Scientist To Quit In Protest - ABC News

Also, Maddow on MSNBC has excellent coverage with explanations of nuclear reactor process and dysfunction
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show/#42100123

 

[Gumby]

FWIW from BBC:

Key points

1. A new fire broke out inside reactor 4 at the Fukushima Daaichi nuclear plant, which was damaged in Friday's earthquake and tsunami - TV pictures of rising smoke suggest it may still be alight
2. Radiation levels remain too high for workers to approach the four reactors

Also:

1. 0117: Live Japanese television pictures appear to show white smoke still billowing in the area of the building housing the No.4 reactor at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, despite reports that a new fire there was under control.

Time is GMT

The Guardian UK says the fire was the same place as before. That it was not properly extinguished the first time and that it is now out.

Japan nuclear crisis and tsunami - live updates | World news | guardian.co.uk

 

[sheehs1]

Gumby...thanks for the understandable explanations. I think the frustrations and speculations have come from ...the lack of good information flowing out of Japan. Not releasing measurable information makes the situation worse. Read something tonight that said on a scale of 1 to 7 for nuclear events, Japan initially rated it a 4. Others are now calling it "at least a 6".
Continuing to bother me are the continued after shocks that are measuring over 6 on the richter scale.

 

[Tigger]

CNN tweets: "50 workers at damaged nuclear plant have been evacuated, Japan official says"
Twitter / CNN Breaking News: 50 workers at damaged nucl ...

And blogs: [10:47 p.m. ET Tuesday, 11:47 a.m. Wednesday in Tokyo] Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said Wednesday workers at Japan's damaged Fukushima Daiichi plant have suspended their operations and been evacuated.
Japan quake live blog: Official death toll rises to 3,676 – This Just In - CNN.com Blogs

 

[clifp]

The CNN nuclear expert seems quite concerned about this.

Can't they perform operations like pumping seawater, closing and open valves, monitoring radiation remotely. Do they need to be on site?

 

[Nords]

The CNN nuclear expert

Now there's an oxymoron!

Can't they perform operations like pumping seawater, closing and open valves, monitoring radiation remotely. Do they need to be on site?

Perhaps the issue is lack of power and potential damage to the indicators. TMI had the same issue with an overwhelming number of alarms & indicators, only most of which were known to be working correctly. This led to the operators picking & choosing their favorite "believable" indicators, with disastrous results.

So it's conceivable that the operators are resorting to checking their local indications.

I suspect they're also exhausted and not sure what they're willing to believe anymore.

 

[Brat]

Back in the late 50s I set my sights on becoming a physicist, until I learned that I needed a PhD in the era the opportunities for women were nurses, teachers and secretaries. I used to play with radioactive stuff.

I was confident that the govt promises of safe storage of nuclear waste would be fulfilled. Well, I will soon be 70 and that hasn't come to pass.

The current problem in Japan is very unfortunate for those of us who want nuclear power to become a practical reality. What is worse is that the real long term problem, storage of spent waste, has yet to be addressed.

This incident will effectively stop nuclear power plant development during my remaining lifetime. Maybe the next generation will solve the problem of spent waste recycling/storage in time for a new generation of facilities.

On that note I will have another glass of wine. Lachaim!

 

[haha]

The Tokyo stock exchange closed strong, and the Nikkei and other averages are mostly up, as are many assorted issues. TEPCO (owner of Fukushimi Daiichi plant) has resumed trading today. It closed at 921 yen, after trading at just below 2200 yen the day before the earthquake.

But overall the market itself is less worried than before, and these guys are trading maybe 300km southwest of Sendai. So if their appraisal means anything, things are no worse and possibly better than yesterday.

Ha

 

[obgyn65]

How are you doing Rambler ?

 

[Gumby]

The CNN nuclear expert seems quite concerned about this.

Can't they perform operations like pumping seawater, closing and open valves, monitoring radiation remotely. Do they need to be on site?

If I recall correctly (and it has been 22 years), at my plant there was an offsite emergency control center from which you could do certain things remotely. I don't know if they have that at Fukushima. And even if they do, given that things are far from normal, I don't know whether they can do what is needed at the moment.

 

[Tigger]

BBC: 0702: Japan's NHK TV confirms that the evacuation order for nuclear plant workers has been lifted.

Apparently it was due to a spike in radiation levels, now they're back.

 

[brewer12345]

Gumby, thanks so much for the explanations.

During the financial crisis, it was shocking to me how wrong the press almost always got it on things that were in my area of specialty. It made me realize that the press is worse than useless any time they are reporting on complex or technical topics of any kind.

 

[samclem]

Here's another good source of technical information about the goings-on at the reactors.

MIT Nuclear Science-- Fukushima.

While the information flow from Japan isn't great, these guys appear to be trying to explain what is known and are updating fairly frequently.

 

[ls99]

Thanks for the MIT link Samclem. It was good reading. Interesting to discover that:

"..Fukushima unit 1 has an electrical rating of 460 MWe and units 2 and 3 have an electrical rating of 784 MWe. However, due to various thermodynamic and practical constraints, the efficiency of the plants is only about 33%." per the article. This bit is further down from the graphs.

Useable power output roughly comparable to Internal Combustion Engines or Diesels.

Form the time I worked at a Nuke power plant in SoCal., I recall the plant requires a huge amount of power to run itself. This plant had three very large Diesel generators as backups to run everything for when the reactor shut down. It was eerie to get to w*rk and only hear the diesels and not the overwhelming hum of the main generator.

By the way I'm not Nuke trained, worked on electronics.

 

[Rambler]

Gumby, thanks for the explanations. We aren't getting much more information from the local media or govt here and if you watch some of the govt officials when they speak it is obvious from body language that they are either lying, they don't have a clue, or both. it really helps. Nerves are running hot here, as we haven't a clue who or what to believe.

Ob gyn - thx for the concern. We have been shaken so much and so often that we've been worked into a froth. Someone said to me today that when I move back to the states, I can go on he speaking circuit as "the man who lived thru a thousand earthquakes". By the end of this week, I'm certain they'll be right about the thousand quakes. I believe we've had something like 400-500 of them already...big one last night around 1030pm, and one around 1:10 this afternoon.

The uncertainty as well as the already broken logistics chain and fuel shortages has led to the supermarket shelves virtually empty, virtually all the time as people try to prepare for the uncertainty. We are regular visitors to Costco, so we are not worried about food. But it is a concern when there is little to nothing on the shelves for 3-4 days in a row. Sometimes I wonder if I shouldn't have hung up my spurs when DD graduated HS...I try not to dwell on that too long...

R

 

[ls99]

Shaken, not stirred. Good to hear from you Rambler.