Need Your Air Conditioner Serviced? Good Luck...

[Qs Laptop]

It's going to cost you a lot more, A LOT MORE, to recharge your A/C this year.

I turned on our A/C on Sunday. I noticed it was taking a long time to cool down the house, about 6 hours, much longer than usual. This was in late evening without direct sunlight on the house.

My A/C is 19 years old. It has a pinhole leak that allows refrigerant to s-l-o-w-l-y leak out of it. Two summers ago, 2020, is when I discovered the slow leak as I had the A/C serviced and the tech needed to add 2 lbs. of R22 refrigerant. The cost was $60 per lb. With labor the total bill was $328. This was the first time I've needed to add refrigerant.

An A/C tech came out today and confirmed the leak and said I needed 4 lbs. of refrigerant, which would cost about $800, plus labor. You see, R22 has been banned from being manufactured or imported, and while you can still use R22 in existing equipment, you have to get it from existing supplies. R22 currently costs about $400 a lb. The replacement refrigerant is R410A (trademarked name Puron) and it costs about $200 lb.

But wait! R410A is also being phased out as a refrigerant. A clause was sneaked into a spending bill in Dec 2020, which will make R410A obsolete. The idea is to reduce R410A by yearly increments until it is completely phased out by 2035. This is increasing the cost of R410A every year (month?) It's up about 15% since January, for example.

The "new" refrigerant of choice will be R32. All A/C units built in 2023 and going forward must use R32. If you get a new A/C unit this year it will probably still be R410A. Hard to tell, though as a quick glance at Carrier, Lennox, and Trane's websites was inconclusive. It seems they only have R410A for 2022.

I can't see spending $1,000 every two year pumping replacement refrigerant into a leaky A/C. So I'm in a awkward spot of probably needing to buy a new A/C unit and might have to buy one that uses the old R410A refrigerant. Which will be obsolete in 15 years or less.

Does anybody know for sure if the major manufacturers are using R32 in home A/C units this year?

 

[JoeWras]

Yep. I was in a bad position last year. I lost 1 of two units (both 21 years old) and had to go with the 410 on the new unit. I was aware of the changes, but I had no choices except 410 last year. Don't know about this year.

The second unit is not leaking refrigerant, but has other issues such as a leaking drip pan. I'm babying it along for hopefully a few years. It is doing great on these hot days. I don't want to go with another 410 unit.

I don't think people are grasping what's going on in the HVAC world due to these new regulations, except that everything is more expensive.

 

[Gumby]

Maybe you need a steam jet cooling system, as they used to have on trains. No refrigerant necessary.

 

[aja8888]

Why not try to find the refrigerant leak and fix it? The tech can use a "sniffer" to find it and then repair the section of pipe that's leaking.

 

[Qs Laptop]

Why not try to find the refrigerant leak and fix it? The tech can use a "sniffer" to find it and then repair the section of pipe that's leaking.

Why not? Take a look at the cost, $1164. The unit is 19 years old. Might as well replace it.

 

[aja8888]

So your plan is to replace it? 19 years is good service for an A/C unit. Here in HOT Houston area, getting 10 years before it starts to go bad is normal.

 

[Qs Laptop]

So your plan is to replace it? 19 years is good service for an A/C unit. Here in HOT Houston area, getting 10 years before it starts to go bad is normal.

Since it's 19 years old, I'm leaning towards replacement. If I wasn't going to stay in this house much longer I might fix it.

I'm in Minneapolis so 19 years in Minnesota is like 10 A/C years in Houston.

 

[Texas Proud]

Why not try to find the refrigerant leak and fix it? The tech can use a "sniffer" to find it and then repair the section of pipe that's leaking.

This is what I was thinking.... I had one repaired 30 or so years ago and it lasted 5 or so more years...


The negative is another one I had.... it decided to produce more than one pinhole so I was fighting a losing battle and changed the unit...

 

[Aerides]

Yeah 19 years is crazy good. You've been on borrowed time for a while. At least you have the luxury of shopping and taking your time.

Getting a new one in a rush, in summer, when yours ups and dies on you, or needs $800 to work for another 2 weeks is not fun.

 

[MC Rider]

The Dept of Water and Power here had an "AC Optimization program" that we took advantage of recently. The tech gave us a new air filter, checked the system, cleaned the coils outside, and added "some" refrigerant. Not sure how much but a small amount. I think the limits was 2 pounds. We declined the new Nest thermostat in favor of our simple one that is only about a year old.



No charge to us.

 

[street]

Crazy the way things are! If we need work on out AC (recharging) I'm just going sweat, it out. Lol We never really need to use it, but a week or so late afternoon so will wait to get it fixed in hopes costs come down.

 

[Qs Laptop]

This is what I was thinking.... I had one repaired 30 or so years ago and it lasted 5 or so more years...


The negative is another one I had.... it decided to produce more than one pinhole so I was fighting a losing battle and changed the unit...

You have identified the problem. If I could fix the existing A/C and the repair would last for 5-6 years, I would do that.

I wish there was a way to know the track record for my particular model air conditioner when it came to leaks and repairs. Maybe my A/C model is known to have leaks in a particular component and when it's fixed it's good for many years.

I was kind of hoping there was an HVAC person here that was knowledgeable. There's an expert on just about anything on ER.org, which is fabulous.

 

[MC Rider]

.........
I wish there was a way to know the track record for my particular model air conditioner when it came to leaks and repairs. Maybe my A/C model is known to have leaks in a particular component and when it's fixed it's good for many years............

A track record is not a prediction. At some point you have to decide what to do, and roll the bones. Good luck with it.

 

[RobbieB]

Mine leaked too right before the 10 year warranty expired. Tech put dye in it when he recharged and later visit revealed the evap coil was the culprit.

So got a new coiled installed for just labor and the thing should work good for another 10 years.

Yeah, leaks suck.

 

[Texas Proud]

You have identified the problem. If I could fix the existing A/C and the repair would last for 5-6 years, I would do that.

I wish there was a way to know the track record for my particular model air conditioner when it came to leaks and repairs. Maybe my A/C model is known to have leaks in a particular component and when it's fixed it's good for many years.

I was kind of hoping there was an HVAC person here that was knowledgeable. There's an expert on just about anything on ER.org, which is fabulous.

Well, I did not read that it was 19 years old.... I would not be repairing it at all..


My current unit was a new one when my 18 to 20 yo unit had its fan motor go out... it was an $800 fix but I just said it would be a losing cause as I bet other things will continue to go out...


I put in a variable speed unit and am happy that I spent the extra money for one... it really keeps the house at an even temp and humidity except for the 2 times a year when the outside temp is the same as what I have inside... the unit just does not run enough to keep the humidity where I like... so have to lower the temp to feel good..

 

[GenXguy]

Mine is over 20 years old - it was in my home before I moved in. But I live in northern Illinois, plus I used it minimally the first 10 years or so I lived here. I'm not as tolerant of heat these days, but I still don't cool below 80 as a rule. It looks like most people tend to put a lot more wear on theirs in the summer, even around here. I have never had any repairs on it.

I have a family member who says theirs is around 30 years old, and she couldn't recall if they had any repairs done.

I'm glad I read this thread because who knows when I'll be in the market to buy a new one!

 

[Dash man]

I’ve replaced the HVAC units in four of the five properties we own in the past few years. Our primary home has two units that have both been replaced. I’m not happy to hear they’re changing the refrigerant requirements in these.

 

[travelover]

The tech should never have added the refrigerant without fixing the leak. There is a reason this stuff is banned.

 

[NW-Bound]

I read somewhere that they are working on a refrigerant that can replace R410a for existing systems.

I don't know if the effort is fruitful, or how close they are getting to it.

It's awful if a repairable leak results in an AC getting tossed because the refrigerant for refill is too expensive or unavailable.

 

[nphx]

sitting on a r22 jug in my garage - time for ER

 

[NW-Bound]

OK, here's what I found on the new R32 as well as a replacement for R410a called RS-53 (R470A).

I don't know if RS-52 can be mixed in with R410a in an existing system, or a complete evacuation is mandatory before a recharge is made.

RS-53 (R470A) is a new non-flammable Drop-in replacement for R410A with a low Global Warming Potential (GWP) less than half that of R410A. RS-53 (R470A) has a similar thermodynamic performance to R410A with matching energy efficiency and cooling capacity. RS-53 (R470A) is compatible with the materials commonly found in R410A equipment. In particular, RS-53 (R470A) contains low toxicity components already known to have excellent chemical stability in air-conditioning units.

RS-53 (R470A) is an exciting new development in the quest to replace higher GWP refrigerants in both existing and new equipment. RS-53 (R470A) enables users to replace R410A in existing units with minimal changes and inconvenience at low cost. RS-53 (R470A) is compatible with lubricants typically used with R410A avoiding the need to change the existing lubricant when retrofitting. RS-53 (R470A) is thus an excellent option to replace R410A, not only in the European Union where F Gas regulations are creating shortages, but also in other countries which are introducing restrictions on the sale and use of refrigerants containing hydrofluorocarbons.

R32 is being introduced as a replacement for R410A in new equipment, but is not suitable for use in existing equipment because it is flammable. In contrast, RS-53 (R470A) is a retrofit solution being non-flammable, low toxicity and with similar cooling capacity, pressures and Coefficient of Performance to R410A.

 

[retire to nature]

I have installed a new hvac in two weeks. One of rental property ac condensor was dead. I have a new extra condensor would fit to it, but no company would do it for liablity issue. I found out it was 24 yr old, so decided to replace the whole thing. My ball park esimate was about 4-5k. but when I called a few companies, they said 8-15k. omg.I can see why the insurance rate is so crazily going up based on all the service cost high. Luckily I found one for 5.6k. They said the schedule was 3 weeks away to install, but luckily it was done in a few days just before this crazy heatwave.
My sister used to do all that with her handyman, but now he is too old to do that.

 

[Sunset]

For these pinhole leaks, can a person find them the same way as is done with propane, by using soapy water and look for bubbles ?

 

[mathjak107]

Yes ..soap and water , or a red dye injected in the system .

The electronic leak detectors work well

 

[JoeWras]

The problem is the leaks in the evaporator, or coil. The coils are hard to get to. It is labor intensive to take them out of the unit. Then the leak has to be found. If it is on one of the elbows, it might be accessible and easily fixed. If it is in the fins area, then it is more difficult.

The act of getting the coil in and out is labor enough, so technicians throw up their hands and usually say "new coil" since that is much of the labor. Also, if you've seen a coil in service for 15 or 20 years, you'll see there is potential for more corrosion and future leaks.

Coils are in a hostile environment. In the summer, they are bathed in sweat. In the winter, they get blasted by the furnace, constantly expanding and contracting.

In my recent case, I was willing to get a new coil even on a 22 year old unit, but sadly, there were no available coils to fit that profile. Over the years, efficiency concerns have lead to a fundamental geometry shift in the design of coils.