The obesity epidemic

[haha]

I am too personally wound up about this.  Azanon says this isn't real life.  I treat it like it is.  So I am taking a break for a while.  

Martha, I want you to know that I am dead serious. Please don't quit. Most people here agree with you, and even those who don't likely appreciate your kindness and depth of understanding.

I get a lot of low cost easy to accomplish social contact here. It isn't complete, but I certainly believe that it is real. In some ways, we are able to let our guards down more here than in some face to face relationships.

What is it- Gresham’s Law- bad money drives out good? Let’s not let a social version of Gresham’s Law rule here.

Ha

 

[wabmester]

You guys are attacking lets-retire in defense of Martha, right?    I have a feeling she can handle the defense just fine if she wants to.     Sounds like she just doesn't want to make the emotional investment right now.   Let her take a break -- no need to form a lynch mob....

He's got a point.   You can't make people change their behavior if they don't want to.   Food is good.   Exercise is hard.   I have to run an hour to burn off one cookie.   That sucks if you like cookies.    I'm sure that some people weigh the costs and benefits, and basically decide to be fat.

 

[lets-retire]

Cube-rat and Brewer--With any addiction the person has to want to stop.  If they don't they will continue to use whatever they are addicted to.  If the desire to stop what ever they are doing is not strong enough the first sign of adversity will send them back to their old habits.  As far as hitting bottom, like I stated for every person it is different.  Some it is the realization that if they don't quit they will end up dead others it is losing everything.  

Brewer--The difference between overeating , smoking, using drugs is that the person is choosing to do those things.  Being a victim of a crime is not always a choice.  Being a welfare mom sorry to say is a choice.  I can honestly say in 15 years I have not arrested any babies who went out an purchased crack for anybody.  That they are born with the addiction is sad and deserving of assistance for the child.  Heck my son was turned into an alcoholic when he was 6 months old by his biological mother.  

Jeff--When someone wants to lose weight or stop some addiction they do it, period.  Sometimes they need the support of others, but last time I checked that was free.

 

[jeff2006]

LR -- what are your qualifications to make pronouncements in this field?

 

[brewer12345]

LR -- what are your qualifications to make pronouncements in this field? 

Certified Know-It-All, just like the rest of us.

 

[haha]

You guys are attacking lets-retire in defense of Martha, right?    I have a feeling she can handle the defense just fine if she wants to.    

I'm not attacking anyone, though I admit I was not overjoyed to see the return of Mr Mensa.

Policies from the political right may often be better, in that least some of them are cheaper. (Excluding wars and corporate welfare).

But I don’t like the shallow intellectual posturing that goes with it. It's one thing if someone wants to say, yeah, I know life sucks and some for some people it sucks really bad, but that's how the cookie crumbles. OK. I can understand, life for the writer is currently good and he doesn't have the imagination to figure anything much could change it for the worse.

But please, spare us the intellectually bankrupt posturing that some use to rationalize their lack of feeling.

The only aggression that is tolerated here is passive aggression, and there is plenty of that.

I really think that whenever one of the women posters is tempted to pack it in, we should support her and try to help her stay. They are what makes this board way better than the typical men farting on each other and seeing who can pee the farthest board.

Ha

 

[wabmester]

I really think that whenever one of the women posters is tempted to pack it in, we should support her and try to help her stay. They are the only thing that makes this board way better than the typical men farting on each other and seeing who can pee the farthest that most boards become.

That's true, but I don't think Martha wants you to beat somebody up on her behalf. Or maybe she's into that kind of chivalry, in which case you should punch him in the nose.

Come back, Martha. We love you, and we have chocolate!

 

[lets-retire]

LR -- what are your qualifications to make pronouncements in this field? 

Mother, father, sister recovering alcoholics.  Mother, sister, brother were all heavily into illegal drugs, but are now clean.  Wife is obese.  She was losing a lot of weight, but because of some heavy duty drugs after her surgery she shot back up.  The doctor told her this would happen.  Wife and I were chronic smokers we both decided to quit.  Due to all of the family being in AA I had access to much of the literature and read most of it.  During my college years I did several research projects into addicitons.  

I have arrested numerous people for drug related charges.  These people were sentenced to drug treatments.  Because they were not self motivated to stay clean, they don't.  The people who view their arrest as the bottom amazingly stayed clean longer.  I watched several of these people go on to make a good life for themselves.

I'd say that makes me as knowledgable as any to speak on the topic.

 

[jeff2006]

Yeah . . you and Joe Friday know it all.

 

[lets-retire]

Oh yeah I also forgot to put my son in that list of alcoholics. Because of his additicon, I had to go to classes about alcoholism.

 

[jeff2006]

If all of this is true, your life is a mess, and you don't need to be giving advice to anyone.

 

[Nords]

Bring on the fat tax!

Ah, yes, the military system.

"We'd love to promote you because you're qualified and we really really need you... but you just happen to be over the official weight standards.  Luckily we've signed you up for mandatory counseling, nutritional training, 3x/week supervised workouts, and monthly weigh-ins. Please don't miss any of these obligations under penalty of UCMJ, and get back to us about that promotion & pay raise when you're within standards.  Have a nice day, and don't forget to re-enlist!"

Hmmm... now what can we do to get those retention rates back up again?

Rich I'm not saying they want to be obese or a smoker, only that they don't want to do what is necessary to lose weight or stop smoking.  I've been there and done that.  Eventually, to paraphrase the 12-step programs, they (me) hit bottom and decide to change our behaviors.  Bottom is different for each person.

Lets-retire, either you missed the "higher power" part of all those AA meetings or you're eligible for membership in the Navy's submarine nuclear-mentality community.  You can't do it all on your own, and eventually even those bottom-strikers need help.  Was someone around when it happened to you?

Just as 90% of all aircraft accidents are pilot error, more than 95% of all Navy submarine nuclear incidents are judged to be personnel error.  Unfortunately the process of assigning accountability, getting the operator/supervisor to accept responsibility for that accountability, and correcting their deficiencies tends to drive them out of the service.  It's sort of like delousing a cat with a flamethrower.  I don't miss it a bit yet I find myself reverting to a Type A nuke every time I have the "What were you thinking?" conversation with my teenager.

You agree with the "Al got stupid" logic, but Caroline has you pegged.  I never had the opportunity to look down a gun barrel but I spent over two decades making sure that I and my shipmates didn't get stupid.  All of that training is of no use when random acts of destruction (or violence) happen.  We can't control or avoid everything but we can take reasonable precautions and be ready to deal with the unavoidable & unreasonable.  It's not failure to take responsibility when that happens, but it's naive to not plan for the unthinkable just because we believe that we should have trained ourselves out of it in the first place.  

Recognize random chance for what it is-- staying so long in the game that even the impossible happens.  Then think about what the survivors should do to recover, not whose fault it is for not being ready in the first place.  If any human error is involved, it would be staying too long in the the game.  I hear the same sentiments from my nephew the Army Ranger and another infantry captain who's learned about life from Afghanistan.

As for human motivation to change, years of smoking or overeating or alcoholism train the body's biology and rewire the brain's endorphin production.  (Exhibit A:  Keith Richards.)  When someone becomes a different person, they can't just wake up one morning and boostrap themselves into a new, healthy configuration.  Cognitive dissonance is all too alive & well in humans (see Exhibit A again), especially when the "good for you" part is made so exceptionally painful by having to haul oneself out of the body's well-worn groove.

 

[lets-retire]

My life isn't a mess.  My extended family on the other hand....

 

[jeff2006]

So by now perhaps you should have learned that other people simply don't value your opinion on topics such as the present topic. Keep it to yourself!

 

[eridanus]

I have arrested numerous people for drug related charges. These people were sentenced to drug treatments. Because they were not self motivated to stay clean, they don't. The people who view their arrest as the bottom amazingly stayed clean longer. I watched several of these people go on to make a good life for themselves.

While I agree with some of your sentiments, that doesn't mean we don't have to help people. There's the pure financial factor - help them lose weight and exercise, help us spend less money on health care - and there's the societal factor.

The "help" programs aren't there for the Howard Roark Mensa Thinkers. They're for everyone else. It's great that the Ironmen, those models of pure capitalism, don't need help and can pull themselves up by their bootstraps blahblahblah but the rest of us someday may need the help, whether it's smoking programs or medicare.

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Re: Re: The obesity epidemic

Rich I'm not saying they want to be obese or a smoker, only that they don't want to do what is necessary to lose weight or stop smoking. I've been there and done that. Eventually, to paraphrase the 12-step programs, they (me) hit bottom and decide to change our behaviors. Bottom is different for each person.

Gotcha.

But I would think that having been there and succeeded, you might be in a good position to help others do the same, no? Why were you able to do it, and someone else couldn't?

Almost like pneumonia - you can get a mild case and do fine with little or no treatment, and the person next to you might die or need a ventilator.

 

[wabmester]

"We'd love to promote you because you're qualified and we really really need you... but you just happen to be over the official weight standards.  Luckily we've signed you up for mandatory counseling, nutritional training, 3x/week supervised workouts, and monthly weigh-ins.  Please don't miss any of these obligations under penalty of UCMJ, and get back to us about that promotion & pay raise when you're within standards.  Have a nice day, and don't forget to re-enlist!"

That actually sounds fantastic, and it's similar to proven intervention programs in non-military settings.   Education, motivation, external accountability, regular follow-up.   What more could we do for these folks?

 

[jeff2006]

That actually sounds fantastic, and it's similar to proven intervention programs in non-military settings.   Education, motivation, external accountability, regular follow-up.   What more could we do for these folks?

We could mind our own business (how quaint!).

 

[wabmester]

We could mind our own business (how quaint!).

Gotcha. So the answer to the obesity epidemic is: do nothing and let the healthy share the burden.

 

[jeff2006]

No, smart guy. Overweight people very often pay higher rates for medical insurance. Got me now?

 

[wabmester]

No, smart guy. Overweight people very often pay higher rates for medical insurance.  Got me now?

A fat tax! I like it....

 

[Rich_by_the_Bay]

Re: Re: The obesity epidemic

I have arrested numerous people for drug related charges. These people were sentenced to drug treatments. Because they were not self motivated to stay clean, they don't. The people who view their arrest as the bottom amazingly stayed clean longer. I watched several of these people go on to make a good life for themselves.

I'd say that makes me as knowledgable as any to speak on the topic.

I agree. You have seen alot and do have some basis for forming your opinions on this matter.

You have seen the darkest of the dark side, unfortunately, and that may not leave you with a completely valid view of these types of illnesses and compulsions. But at least you have some exposure to what they can do.

Probably would be interesting for you to see the non-crimininal and non-family victims so you could form a more objective view point. My experience is that these folks are suffering and would give alot to lose their sel-destructive ways. They just don't know what to do, and our treatments are not perfect. It's pretty sad, but in my view doesn't deserve disdain (not calling you out, Lets; just a general thought).

 

[jeff2006]

We already have one.  Who cares whether you like it or not?

 

[Nords]

That actually sounds fantastic, and it's similar to proven intervention programs in non-military settings.   Education, motivation, external accountability, regular follow-up.   What more could we do for these folks?

After a couple decades of all sides of these programs, here's the answer:  let them resign from the service until they're ready to come back in.

What you've chosen to see as beneficient & avuncular support, others see as legislated intrusion with mandated (yet unfunded) requirements.  But if we subjected ourselves to the same program for a few months then no doubt we'd have abdominal muscles like Brad Pitt, cholestorol below 100, you'd have fixed all of WinXP's flaws, and I'd have my martial arts black belt.  Then we could both get ourselves drafted by the NBA.

The symptoms of the obesity (or the alcoholism, or the drug addiction) are addressed without bothering to try to correct the root cause.  (I'm sorry, Tricare won't cover psychological counseling for your family too.  Did you want to keep your security clearance with that?)  I'm not trying to claim that it's the military's job to cure the social problems of its recruits, but we take an unholy glee at pounding some people even harder than the rest because they have poor stress-coping mechanisms.  We feel entitled to do so because we're paying their salary, so I think that the best way to break the cycle is to stop paying them.

I bet we'd see a big drop in veterans' heart attacks, strokes, accidents, incidents, and even suicides.

 

[lets-retire]

eridanus--I understand that.  My point was that we are already paying for much of the information to be presented.  If the person sees itor looks in the mirror and decides they need to change then they can seek out the information/support needed.  Once people start to be hounded, the message loses it's effectivness.

Rich--In all of my research nowhere has anybody figured out that last question.  I think it comes down to personal desire.  I know everytime I tried and failed to quit it was because deep down I really didn't want to.  However, once I decided coughing up a lung every morning, panting after going up a flight of stairs, and having everything taste like cigarettes wasn't for me, quiting was much easier than ever before.  Some people do need the assistance of a support group and they are out there all that is needed is to look for it.  When someone says they are quiting I do everything I can, without intentionally being annoying to help that person succeed.