Using POA for Parent

Coincidentally,when I took over DMs finances the first thing I did was cancel Terminex. It was shameful the way they were taking advantage of her. All I did was call and say "cancel, please, effective immediately" without getting into any detail about POA, contract, etc. We had no termination issues. When she moved out I canceled the alarm security contract and Comcast, both notorious for not letting go. Again, no problems or termination issues, nor any mention of POA. Generally, I find that "POA" comes up rarely, most people just take it for granted I am authorized.

Talking to the bank is a good idea. In our case the whole process was easier because DM lived in Illinois, where there is a standard POA that pretty much assures acceptance.


As an aside.... sometimes it is good to have someone of the same sex that knows the answer to all security questions.... we had to get a 1099 for my mother and when I called they would not even send one out without my moms consent... called my oldest sister who knows everything and she became 'mom'.... answered the questions and she said they could talk to me... quick and painless....
 
Thanks for all the feedback. It is helpful. A few things:

1. On the idea of my mom going with me to the bank -- right now that is impossible.

2. Several years ago (with my mom's permission) I was going to set up online access for her for the bank.
I was my father's conservator for over six years (Alzheimer's) and that taught me a few things about these two concerns.

The most powerful legal form of delegated legal powers is a revocable living trust with her as a grantor/trustee and you as a contingency trustee. It's probably not an option for you now, but my spouse and I are setting that up for our elder years (with our daughter as contingency trustee).

You can petition your local probate court for guardian/conservator appointments. That's generally done when the elder is in a coma or dealing with dementia. It inserts the probate court into your caregiver life as a benevolent overseer of many administrative reports and an occasional judge's order. It's no fun but sometimes it's the only legal option (especially when there's no RLT).

Perhaps your most practical option right now is a durable POA. Those are not always accepted by financial institutions, or they may insist on having yet another durable POA executed on their own custom form. However I encountered plenty of disrespect as a conservator, too, so a durable POA might be the best alternative.

Regular ol' POAs are technically (and legally) invalidated upon impaired cognition or death. They can also be revoked at any time, which can be a problem if elder vultures prey on your mother and ask for a POA as her special friend.

When Dad entered a care facility, we felt very lucky that he did not own real estate. I can't offer any help with that issue, although a durable POA may be the answer.

If your mother agrees (and while she's still healthy enough), I'd set up everything to be done online. (I agree that her bank is not helping, and you could ask the bank what "Yes" would look like so that you can lawyer up if necessary.) You don't always have to switch the places where she currently deposits her Social Security and other payments, but you'd certainly want to set up automatic transfers from those accounts to other accounts which you either access online or where you're a joint owner.

My father's pension & SS were deposited in a local bank which was hostile to me from the day Dad entered a care facility until he passed away... and then for several months afterward. (We're still disputing Dad's account balance with them, but it's only $1.26.) However it was still less hassle to deal with this bank than to switch a SS deposit and a pension deposit, even with a conservator's appointment. After the first month with that bank I just started transferring out all the deposits every month (leaving behind $100). On the day Dad died I transferred out another $99 before notifying the bank of Dad's death.

That last paragraph involves techniques which may be technically illegal (even felonious). However Dad's business got done, I maintained records of my fiduciary behavior, and the bank officially ignored everything as long as they could.

You mentioned "signing the checks". I initially came under the gimlet eye of Dad's bank due to my helpful assistance of filling out his utility bills for his signature. (It kept him occupied while he was in the hospital.) This "filling out the checks" practice is apparently a classic sign of elder abuse. As soon as Dad's bank saw the checks in my handwriting (even with Dad's actual signature) they locked me out of his account. It took us nine months (and a probate court's conservator appointment) to restore access.

You can sign up for online accounts with Social Security and Medicare. (Or just update the mailing address and continue to do business with paper.) Social Security will verify ID with a credit-reporting agency, so unfreeze her credit records before signing up for online accounts. I also did fine with SS on the phone for changes of address & phone number. They seem to know the difference between caregivers and elder abuse.

You may want to freeze your mother's credit now, and perhaps let her credit cards expire. I belatedly remembered to cash in Dad's rewards points.

When you file your mother's tax returns, the IRS and the state may want you to verify her online ID with a driver's license or state ID card. (It depends on whether she's been a prior victim of tax ID theft.) You can also sign her up now for online taxpayer verification or a PIN.

Your mother should verify that all of her retirement accounts (especially IRAs) have designated beneficiaries. It's also very helpful to designate "payable on death" or "transfer on death" to every one of her other accounts. This greatly simplifies probate (or avoids it entirely). It also lets you request disbursement via an affidavit instead of having a probate court issue you a letter of appointment as a personal representative. I was able to ask Navy Federal Credit Union, USAA, and Fidelity to disburse large sums with affidavits because he had POD/TOD on those accounts. The lack of POD/TOD on Dad's checking account is why Dad's old bank and I are still disputing $1.26.

3. I am very reluctant to add myself to her bank account for two reasons. One - I worry that would create some risk for her. That is, what if I was sued or had some liability and someone tried to collect the money from that account because my name was on it? I have no debts and pay my bills but someone could wrongfully try to collect something. Second - If my mother were to need nursing home care and lived long enough she could exceed her assets and need Medicaid. Would it muddy the waters in her qualifying if I was on the account and writing checks (even if all of them were for her benefit)?
If you do open a joint account with your mother, you could make it separate from all of her other accounts and transfer money to it. Limit its balance to just enough to pay the monthly bills. That minimizes the liability risk. Medicaid won't care, although they'll look back through five years of records for any large fund transfers (like gifting) to make sure no assets were being illegally hidden from the Medicaid requirements.

When I was Dad's conservator, I continued his history of gifting my brother and me. (I had to get the probate court's approval, and they didn't care.) It helped my brother (who occasionally asked to borrow money from Dad's assets). It gave me a "Dad emergency fund" to tap if I had problems with any of his financial accounts. It was also my backup care fund if he went on Medicaid, so I had projected his gifting to stop at least five years before his assets were depleted.

FWIW, I plan to go to be bank probably Monday and talk to them since that is the main one that needs to be done. I will go to the branch that she has banked at for over 50 years since I want to check the safety deposit box (I am on her box and have been for over 40 years).
I've read many stories of caregivers who, when their elder dies, quietly visit the bank and empty the safe deposit box before formally notifying the bank of the death of the elder. Some of them simply transferred the contents to a box at a different bank. The banks seem to ignore this behavior if no other heirs complain.

This may not be a concern for you since you're on the box, but you might want to reverify the bank's policy for the death of a box holder.

You seem to be doing just fine, but I found it tremendously helpful to hire a geriatric care manager in Dad's local community for a couple hours of advice & assistance. They know exactly how to tap into community & state resources (especially Medicaid) to make life easier for both caregivers & elders. If your mother's a military vet (or a surviving spouse of a military vet) then a GCM can help figure out any veteran's benefits.
 
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My mom had a stroke last May and set me up as her Power of Attorney while she was in Rehab. In the last year I have found the POA doesn't always give me the power to do anything.

The first thing I used the POA for was to gain access to her bank accounts so I could start paying bills. This was actually the easiest to do. I took the POA document to her bank, they made a copy for their records, then added my name to her accounts. I was also able to close her empty safe deposit box and a savings account she no longer needed.

The utilities (phone, cable, garbage) didn't care either way. I phoned them and described the situation, they cancelled the accounts without any documentation. Same with home insurance, car insurance, property taxes, etc.

My first hurdle came when I tried to let her railroad retirement know her address had changed. No change to her bank account or where the money got sent, just an address change. The POA meant nothing to them. I had to file paperwork to become a "representative payee". It wasn't an overly difficult process, just stressful and time consuming during an already difficult time.

We are currently in the process of trying to sell her house. I have been able to take care of most things with the POA, but they did require my mom to sign a Lack of Probate document for her husband who died 15 years ago. Also, even though the POA document itself gives me full power to do everything for her, I made the mistake of including the cover letter from the attorney that has one line mentioning "with my consent". The title company latched on to that, so now it's looking like I'm gonna have to drive mom a couple hours to the title company so she can give her consent in person.

Most other situations like her medical insurance, doctor appointments, etc. have been no issue. They just wanted a copy of the POA to have on record, then I can make appointments, ask medical questions, etc.

It has been a rough year, but we've worked through most issues. I set up any new accounts as joint accounts in both our names. And I'm on record now to deal with any medical issues that might arise going forward. If we can just get past this home sale there shouldn't be any more major financial issues to deal with until her personal finances run out.

I would check with the title company to see if they can accept a document they prepare that is notarized with your mothers signature. In general most real estate issues can be handled with notarized documents, which it should be possible to get a notary locally. After all when you sell real estate it is the notary that makes the deed legal.
 
I had both financial and medical POA for a good friend of mine who had dementia and her DH passed. Some recognized them and some did not. I finally realized it was easier to get things done by phone when I just pretended to be her. I had all her personal info so it was easy to do.
 
I helped both of my in-laws with their various accounts and affairs. As long as they could get on the phone and give verbal authorization, everyone was willing to work with us to get things taken care of.
 
If you were on the account, then it would not have been shut down if you had rights of survivorship.

It wasn't shut down by the bank, I closed the account, but before doing so I emptied the account except for $5 or so. Just in case there were to be any problems in which there wasn't.
 
Perhaps your most practical option right now is a durable POA. Those are not always accepted by financial institutions, or they may insist on having yet another durable POA executed on their own custom form. However I encountered plenty of disrespect as a conservator, too, so a durable POA might be the best alternative.

This I do have. After my Dad died 18 years ago, my mom came into my firm (I'm an attorney but not particularly knowledgeable about wills and estates) and one of the other attorneys helped her to do a durable POA, health care POA, advance directive and an updated will. So that part is OK. I've read online that some banks refuse to accept durable POAs that are old on the ground that they are "stale" which is nonsense. If I have any issue with the bank I plan to ask them to have their legal department look at her durable POA since it should suffice.

My mom is mentally competent so she could probably sign their form if necessary so long as she didn't have to physically go to the bank.


If your mother agrees (and while she's still healthy enough), I'd set up everything to be done online.

Yes, I am going to try to do as much of that as possible.


You mentioned "signing the checks". I initially came under the gimlet eye of Dad's bank due to my helpful assistance of filling out his utility bills for his signature. (It kept him occupied while he was in the hospital.) This "filling out the checks" practice is apparently a classic sign of elder abuse. As soon as Dad's bank saw the checks in my handwriting (even with Dad's actual signature) they locked me out of his account. It took us nine months (and a probate court's conservator appointment) to restore access.

This is very interesting and I had never thought of it. I've periodically at time written checks for my mom (that she signed) because it was just easier for her if I did it. I just did a couple of them for her (paying bills). Well, if I can set up with the bank so I can just sign checks as POA then it won't be an issue.

When you file your mother's tax returns, the IRS and the state may want you to verify her online ID with a driver's license or state ID card. (It depends on whether she's been a prior victim of tax ID theft.) You can also sign her up now for online taxpayer verification or a PIN.

I've been doing my mom's taxes and filing them online (with her consent and after her review of the tax return) for years. So, that part is OK.

Your mother should verify that all of her retirement accounts (especially IRAs) have designated beneficiaries.

She has one IRA account (it isn't much money) and the statement says the beneficiary designation is on file. It says that if she wants to know who the beneficiary is that she has to call and get a change beneficiary form (which seems weird, but OK). So, I plan to get her on the phone with them so we can figure that out. SInce it doesn't have my name just outright on there (which I think from the statement it would if she simply had me on there as beneficiary) I suspect she has her estate as the beneficiary. But, I will see if we can get that form and then change it to me.

It's also very helpful to designate "payable on death" or "transfer on death" to every one of her other accounts.

Yes, the main thing here is her bank account. I will check that when I go to the bank on her durable POA.

She doesn't really have any other accounts. She has a whole life insurance policy (obtained for some reason when she was 70). It is for a small amount of money. The cash value basically doesn't change much each year but the death benefit is slowly being eaten away each year and is decreasing. But, right now the death benefit is still about $3000 more than the cash value so she is just leaving that as is.

I think on that, though, my father may have been the beneficiary but he is deceased now. Maybe there is a secondary beneficiary of either her estate or me.

If you do open a joint account with your mother, you could make it separate from all of her other accounts and transfer money to it. Limit its balance to just enough to pay the monthly bills. That minimizes the liability risk.

That is a good point and if there is any difficulty with the bank that would work.
I've read many stories of caregivers who, when their elder dies, quietly visit the bank and empty the safe deposit box before formally notifying the bank of the death of the elder. Some of them simply transferred the contents to a box at a different bank. The banks seem to ignore this behavior if no other heirs complain.

I went and checked it a few years ago and there was nothing important in there. But, I need to check again to make sure there have been no significant changes.

You seem to be doing just fine, but I found it tremendously helpful to hire a geriatric care manager in Dad's local community for a couple hours of advice & assistance
.

I have considered doing this. I had sort of been waiting to wait to see how my mom's rehab was going as her progress in rehab really has a lot to do with where she goes after rehab. I need to talk to the rehab case manager also to see their view of things.
 
I would check with the title company to see if they can accept a document they prepare that is notarized with your mothers signature. In general most real estate issues can be handled with notarized documents

We were able to take care of one real estate document with a local notary. The title company still wants a letter of consent but I haven't heard back from them about what it should say and if it needs to be notarized. At this point, I'm willing to drive mom over and have her sign the paperwork herself if it means we can close the deal and not waste time with the POA stuff. I just want to be done with this house sale.
 
I thought I would update on this. I ended up going to the bank and that actually worked out well. The POA was looked at and then scanned in and sent off to...somewhere...to be approved. It was approved and I had to sign an affidavit that the POA was still in effect, that my mom was alive and indemnifying the bank for anything based upon its relying upon my having authority. The bank then added me as POA to the accounts and the safety deposit box. I did not need to become joint in my individual capacity. I can sign checks with my mom's name and then showing it is by me as POA. I asked to set up online access and it was done right then and there so that solved that issue.
 
Very timely thread. My DW is POA for her mother. Today we have to file her taxes. Debating whether or not to just sign her mothers name or sign it as DW, POA for Dear Mother . . . How do you sign the tax returns?
 
Glad to hear it worked out so easily, Katsmeow. You're doing a great job helping your mother!
 
Very timely thread. My DW is POA for her mother. Today we have to file her taxes. Debating whether or not to just sign her mothers name or sign it as DW, POA for Dear Mother . . . How do you sign the tax returns?

When DW was acting as POA for her father she would sign documents (including the tax return and checks, etc.) as "her name, POA for father's name" and that seemed to work. At least no one questioned it.
 
Very timely thread. My DW is POA for her mother. Today we have to file her taxes. Debating whether or not to just sign her mothers name or sign it as DW, POA for Dear Mother . . . How do you sign the tax returns?

I always prepare the return electronically and have her review it and then she will authorize me to file it electronically.
 
Spouse is primary beneficiary of an account. Four children listed as secondary beneficiaries. Husband dies.
U*** will not accept new beneficiary form for account transfer, as the POA signing for mother is also listed as secondary beneficiary.

It is spectacular when institutions are so helpful.
 
So...not quite sure what to do about this. I got an email for my mom's credit card account saying she needs to urgently call the Fraud Department. I suspect it is because of my setting up online access and then accessing the account through WiFi at another location.

My mom has a credit card account and she had a bill of about $1000. I wanted to monitor it online and just pay it off for her. She authorized me to set up online access which I did when I was at her house (it had to be verified through her home phone number which was the only number on the account). I added my cell phone number to the account since no one is currently at my mom's house (my mom is in rehab). And I set up emaill access via an email that I use for my mom's stuff.

I didn't really think I needed to call the credit card company and send them the POA and go through all that. I just wanted to pay this bill since she rarely uses the card and probably won't need to use it again any time soon.

Anyway, so later I am not at her house and log in on my iPad and check her bill and make sure I know the balance. Then, I call the credit card company and just make a direct payment from her checking account to pay her bill. The payment has cleared and she has a zero balance.

Then the next day I get an email (well my mom gets the email on the email account I use for her) saying that she urgently needs to call the Fraud Prevention Department. I suspect that they are suspicious of online access being set up and the fact that account was accessed by my iPad from a couple of different locations (same area but different places).

I think I will take my cell phone to my mom's rehab (where she is and will be for awhile) and call on speaker and I will have her get on the phone and tell them to talk to me. If I say she is at rehab they may wonder how all this got set up from her house. Of course, I set it up from her house (with her consent). My mom doesn't understand computers at all and doesn't understand online stuff at all (she is 94 and does not use computers). So, I am positive she can't explain any of this to the credit card company.

So, not sure if I should tell them that I did it with her consent and as POA. I guess it doesn't matter in a sense as she rarely uses the card but it is her only credit card so I do want to keep it active in case she needs it for anything....
 
I wouldn't call them. Just pay the bills. That's all they're worried about in the long run :)
 
Complications discussed on this thread are why we set up a revocable living trust with the kids as co-trustees (not successor) shortly after mom's diagnosis, re-titling everything into the trust ASAP.
 
Katsmeow

I would call them with your mom present so that she can confirm that you have POA and that she approved you establishing on-line access. They don't need any more detail than that. You may have to send them a copy of the POA for their file.

I would not ignore their request because they may freeze the account or your on-line access. After all, that is what we would want them to do if they suspected someone accessed the account without authorization.
 
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My mom has a credit card account and she had a bill of about $1000. I wanted to monitor it online and just pay it off for her.... Then, I call the credit card company and just make a direct payment from her checking account to pay her bill. The payment has cleared and she has a zero balance.... Then the next day I get an email saying that she urgently needs to call the Fraud Prevention Department.

It doesn't sound like your mom will be using a credit card in the future. I would just call them and cancel the card. When my mom had a stroke I cancelled her (unused) credit card. The bank wanted a copy of the POA and my personal information (name, address, social security number, etc.) then they cancelled with no further problems. A minor hassle, but a lot easier than some issues I've had to deal with as POA.

Even if you want to keep the card, I would just give them a call. Better to solve the issue up front so it doesn't cause problems later on. They will probably freeze the account until it's cleared up anyway.

I don't know too many criminals who want to pay off my credit card bill. That's the kind of fraud I would welcome. :)
 
I don't know too many criminals who want to pay off my credit card bill. That's the kind of fraud I would welcome. :)

A couple years ago, someone paid off my DS's credit card balance using DS checking account linked to the credit card. Then they maxed out the credit card.
 
A couple years ago, someone paid off my DS's credit card balance using DS checking account linked to the credit card. Then they maxed out the credit card.

I was joking of course. Any unauthorized activity is cause for concern. If they can deposit money into the account they can withdraw it also.
 
I took my cell phone to the rehab facility and put my mom on speakerphone with me. I basically did the talking explained that I had helped my mom set up online access and had added a cell phone to the account. The representative asked my mom some information to verify her identity (which she answered fine). She asked her how old my mom was and when she said 94, it was clear that the representative understood why I was helping her. But, anyway, once it was clear that this was done to help my mom and that we have her card in our possession, they were basically fine with everything. The POA never even came up.
 
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