Coming up with THE NUMBER

[Lisa99]

Sorry, but IMHO you have much deeper problems as related to money and how it is applied to your joint lifestyle.

I have comments, but I'll withold them (based upon "input" of your postings).

Let's just say, that I wish you well...

I agree that we do have some money issues to work through, but we've been married 22 years and this is a recurring theme in our marriage. His purchases aren't big, but are frequent, so it's not like he's buying big boy toys thank goodness.

The great thing is that we can talk about it without anger. I've shared this entire thread with him and he now fully understands where my discomfort lies.

He's also agreed to start helping with the planning so I'm going to show him how to use Firecalc so he can come up with his own number (under close supervision of course!)

 

[Lisa99]

To some degree we're like that -- but only up to a point. As long as our saving and investing goals of $X each month are met, I'm happy. Sometimes if we spend less, we'll put in a lot more than $X. If we spend more, it'll be only a little more than $X. For us it's a nice compromise between making sure we are making sufficient progress every month without obsessing over where every dollar went.

YMMV, naturally...

We also have a minimum $ amt that we put into investments each year and we've never not met our minimum investment goal.

Since we're meeting our investment goals I sometimes feel like I'm being a nag when I get upset at the small but frequent purchases. HOWEVER, I feel the need to practice living within our defined retirement budget, to make sure the number that we've set is realistic. And right now we're not living within that budget.

 

[Lisa99]

I always get lost when I read about THE NUMBER and especially how younger couples still raising small children can guestimate it.
Living expenses? Is it expenses today or is it estimated expenses in today's dollars after the kids are out, or estimated expenses of the first year in retirement in today's dollars?
And after dividing expenses by 0.035 or 0.4, does the NUMBER still contain the principal to be left behind or will it be used up by the end?
There're threads here in which people express wishes/plans to retire in the forties. I'd say 3.5% is too agressive for them, right?

I sometimes read people talking in future dollars, others in today's dollars, and in the end I'm lost. Maybe by the time I can foresee my retirement I'll figure it out.

I guess I'm a simpleton. Our retirement budget is in today's dollars as is the "NUMBER" needed to retire. We do not plan to leave an estate but plan to never go below $xx in the investement accounts.

All of this I can easily model in Firecalc. When I start hearing future dollars, today's dollars my head starts spinning and I just want to go play pickleball

 

[ziggy29]

Since we're meeting our investment goals I sometimes feel like I'm being a nag when I get upset at the small but frequent purchases. HOWEVER, I feel the need to practice living within our defined retirement budget, to make sure the number that we've set is realistic. And right now we're not living within that budget.

Oh, I totally agree with that. Retirement -- or my semi-retirement at minimum -- is far enough away that we haven't started the "live within those means" test (for at least my semi-retirement I think we pretty much are except for losing my Megacorp health insurance). As of now, as long as our monthly goals are nearly always met (and usually exceeded), I decided to let the small stuff go as an investment in "domestic tranquility" as well as trying to balance consideration with enjoying our longer term future (retirement) and with enjoying the present day.

 

[Lisa99]

Oh, I totally agree with that. Retirement -- or my semi-retirement at minimum -- is far enough away that we haven't started the "live within those means" test (for at least my semi-retirement I think we pretty much are except for losing my Megacorp health insurance). As of now, as long as our monthly goals are nearly always met (and usually exceeded), I decided to let the small stuff go as an investment in "domestic tranquility" as well as trying to balance consideration with enjoying our longer term future (retirement) and with enjoying the present day.

That's a great attitude re: enjoying the present. We make that a priority as well and have a hefty budget today for travel and entertainment.

This thread sounds like we have ongoing battles with money. We actually don't. What this thread did do was help me clarify the reason for my discomfort and it is about spending. So now we can work on it together.

 

[Running_Man]

Funny, we do this today. We each get XX/month that goes into a separate checking acct to be spent as we wish.

Yet he STILL buys stuff on Amazon using the house account without asking. I raise cain periodically, he stops for awhile then starts up again. His thought is 'we have plenty of money, what's the big deal'.

I shared this thread with him yesterday and he now understands what the big deal is. Until he gets his shopping addiction under control I'm not comfortable retiring.

It seems to me that there needs to be a budget for the Amazon items that will meet what he likes to spend on or he will become miserable in retirement. To expect this activity to cease with mere reflection of his spending habits is unlikely and will be a continued source of friction.

I would budget a recurring purchase of gift cards to be directly applied to the Amazon account based on a typical years expenses so that he could see what his balance is and buy whatever with that money.

I have a similar situation with spending of near $7,000 per year which means I need almost $200K to fund the situation but I find that is merely an amount needed for the household to retire, rather than concern myself on changing behaviors that have not changed in the past and not funding that aspect of retirement spending.

 

[Lisa99]

It seems to me that there needs to be a budget for the Amazon items that will meet what he likes to spend on or he will become miserable in retirement. To expect this activity to cease with mere reflection of his spending habits is unlikely and will be a continued source of friction.

I would budget a recurring purchase of gift cards to be directly applied to the Amazon account based on a typical years expenses so that he could see what his balance is and buy whatever with that money.

I have a similar situation with spending of near $7,000 per year which means I need almost $200K to fund the situation but I find that is merely an amount needed for the household to retire, rather than concern myself on changing behaviors that have not changed in the past and not funding that aspect of retirement spending.

That's a great way to think about it. The small item, but frequent shopping is a fact. So maybe we just plan for it and be done with it. It would mean that his monthly allowance would be bigger than mine, but I think that's probably ok too.

 

[2B]

I shared this thread with him yesterday and he now understands what the big deal is. Until he gets his shopping addiction under control I'm not comfortable retiring.

Not only can you get free finacial advice here but marriage counseling too!

 

[ziggy29]

That's a great way to think about it. The small item, but frequent shopping is a fact. So maybe we just plan for it and be done with it. It would mean that his monthly allowance would be bigger than mine, but I think that's probably ok too.

One of the most important things in a marriage that is a solid partnership is in avoiding situations likely to cause resentment where money matters are concerned. So if you're okay with him spending more than you, fine. (Or if he's willing to keep working to get a larger "allowance" while you retire with a smaller one and you remain "within budget" overall, that's fair too.)

Of course, the issue of one spouse working and one retiring is also something that is a potential source for resentment. But if the one who keeps working really does want to work and they don't feel their lifestyle is suffering because the other spouse isn't, that's not a problem either -- especially if the retired spouse can do more of the household chores and run most of the household errands to "sweeten the pot" for the one who still works.

There are a lot of different ways to deal with "unequal" allowances and situations where one keeps working and the other stops. But as I'm sure you're well aware, this is something that requires a lot of communication and understanding ahead of time, so no one feels a toxic resentment down the road.

 

[2B]

That's a great way to think about it. The small item, but frequent shopping is a fact. So maybe we just plan for it and be done with it. It would mean that his monthly allowance would be bigger than mine, but I think that's probably ok too.

The issue isn't the money IMHO. What I see is that he doesn't do what he's agreed to do. He's not respecting your mutual agreements.

I'm blessed with a reasonably frugal wife. We have an "under $1,000 - go for it" rule but neither of us will spend more than a hundred or so without bringing it up for discussion. We also don't buy very much. She'll come home with $75 of clothes and almost apolgize for buying it when she shows it to me. She'll force me to go out and buy new shoes when mine start falling apart. She may be frugal but I'm pretty cheap.

 

[Lisa99]

The issue isn't the money IMHO. What I see is that he doesn't do what he's agreed to do. He's not respecting your mutual agreements.

Very true, and something we can work on together. I enable the behavior by not calling him on it every time I see a purchase hit the home account.

If we could get this one small area fixed, life would be just about perfect

 

[grasshopper]

. We also don't buy very much. She'll come home with $75 of clothes and almost apolgize for buying it when she shows it to me. She'll force me to go out and buy new shoes when mine start falling apart. She may be frugal but I'm pretty cheap.

Women shop, men just replace the worn out stuff. When I go to the store I always look for the same brand/style I need to replace.

 

[jclarksnakes]

Your husband thinks you have enough money for him to buy things he wants on Amazon. Maybe he is right?

 

[tulak]

Another option is for him to agree to transfer money from his personal account to the home account every time he uses the home account. You can do this once a month when the billing period is done.

My wife and I have a similar setup with separate spending accounts except we that we always get the same amount. Sometimes we give ourselves a bonus, but it's always the same amount for both of us. This is our money to do with as we please and if one accumulates more than the other, more power to them.

And we also use these accounts for all our individual spending: clothes, haircuts, toys, etc. This way if she wants to spend $100+ on a new pair of shoes, that's none of my business. And I get no complaints when I buy a new gadget. It works well for us.

 

[2B]

Women shop, men just replace the worn out stuff. When I go to the store I always look for the same brand/style I need to replace.

I really hated it when I went back to the same store to replace my shoes and they no longer carried that style/make. It took me 20 minutes to pick my new shoes - nothing seemed to fit right. I had planned on spending 2 minutes picking up the same ones.

 

[2B]

Your husband thinks you have enough money for him to buy things he wants on Amazon. Maybe he is right?

It's obvious that they do have enough money for him to buy things. The issue is "big spender" isn't following the mutually agreed to budget and is then whining about retiring earlier than planned. He is telling her that he can unilaterally ignore anything they have agreed on.

 

[Lisa99]

Your husband thinks you have enough money for him to buy things he wants on Amazon. Maybe he is right?

He's definitely right, but this retirement planning is a project and since I'm a certfied PMP, I MUST stop the scope creep!!

 

[2B]

My wife and I have a similar setup with separate spending accounts except we that we always get the same amount. Sometimes we give ourselves a bonus, but it's always the same amount for both of us. This is our money to do with as we please and if one accumulates more than the other, more power to them.

And we also use these accounts for all our individual spending: clothes, haircuts, toys, etc. This way if she wants to spend $100+ on a new pair of shoes, that's none of my business. And I get no complaints when I buy a new gadget. It works well for us.

This would be really unfair to my DW. I get $12 haircuts and have no interest in getting my nails done. She does and get her hair colored when it's cut. I have shoes that last years. Well, so does she but she still buys more shoes than I do. If I had as much money as she spends going into "my" account, I would have no idea what to spend it on.

 

[2B]

He's definitely right, but this retirement planning is a project and since I'm a certfied PMP, I MUST stop the scope creep!!

That explains the whole situation. You are a professional nerd.

 

[Lisa99]

That explains the whole situation. You are a professional nerd.

Guilty as charged!

 

[Retch The Grate]

I shared this thread with him yesterday and he now understands what the big deal is. Until he gets his shopping addiction under control I'm not comfortable retiring.

That seems like an incredibly useful and actionable insight, glad the thread helped you work that out. It is neat how just telling people about what we are mulling over can lead to new perspectives and solutions without them even saying anything (working in software you see this all the time where you have somebody come and play Captain Obvious for some problem you are trying to solve. Just describing the problem to them often yields the solution).

 

[MichaelB]

Very true, and something we can work on together. I enable the behavior by not calling him on it every time I see a purchase hit the home account.

If we could get this one small area fixed, life would be just about perfect

We are trained to believe every issue has a solution that satisfies everyone. That's not always so, and this may be one of those situations with no easy way forward, or perhaps no solution at all. It's not your fault and you're not an enabler, you are married to someone who views money and saving differently. This is not often discussed on this board and just "calling him out" is not helpful. You need to learn to deal with this and at least contain it without unnecessary sacrifice on your part. That might mean working and saving more. It also might mean leading him to believe there is less money available to spend. That is, creating your own savings that you can use to offset some of the excess spending. It is very difficult to change behaviour after 22 years. Going back to your original posts, I think your concern is legit and your plan needs to be able to deal with excess spending.

 

[Katsmeow]

This would be really unfair to my DW. I get $12 haircuts and have no interest in getting my nails done. She does and get her hair colored when it's cut. I have shoes that last years. Well, so does she but she still buys more shoes than I do. If I had as much money as she spends going into "my" account, I would have no idea what to spend it on.

This is an issue DH and I struggled with. We used to each get $X a month spending for each of us. It was used for personal spending money, personal electronics/computers, books, individual entertainment, eating lunch out, clothes, hair and other personal care (makeup, personal care items, etc).

While we both worked full time this worked fine. I don't get my nails done any more. I did get my hair colored which was more expensive than DH's haircuts but he got them more than I did hair color so it worked out OK.

Then, DH retired but I kept working part time. So I was going to have more clothes needs and more personal care need and I would occasionally still eat out lunches (I usually take lunch but sometimes go out). I've started doing my own hair color so that isn't expensive but my clothes expenses are much higher than DH's.

So we split the spending budget in two. The non-clothes/personal care part we kept the amount for each of us the same. For clothes/personal care I get twice as much as DH. We also moved the lunches to the regular dining out category since we didn't feel it fair to charge to my spending money since I usually eat lunch out when I'm working. So far, this is all working fine.

 

[obgyn65]

I like the idea of gift cards to be applied to the Amazon account, or a Mastercard with a spending limit for your husband to use as he chooses.

I would budget a recurring purchase of gift cards to be directly applied to the Amazon account based on a typical years expenses so that he could see what his balance is and buy whatever with that money.

 

[aida2003]

This is an interesting thread that it's not investment related. Kind of counseling about frivolous spending and marriage. I'll have to read it all.
But I noticed one note of Lisa about her DH's spending ... he spends little but frequently, it's not like buying big toys...Something like that. I didn't read other comments (as I said I'll have to read it all later), but I'd like to chime in on this. Those little things can add up fast and you should budget for that in case he continues doing that in the ER or R. What if he gets bored in his ER and decides to play virtual life (like FarmVille or CityVille and other crazy cr*p) in addition to shopping on Amazon. Just for an exercise, let him (or you do for him) start a spreadsheet and start adding each little toy for one year...just to see what it adds up. Maybe it'll be small enough and you worry too much about or maybe not