Persistence of the American Dream

[GrayHare]

Pay more. That's how it works, unless you think Marx was right after all

Price is generally not an issue since usually out of 10 candidates only one person shows up, and gets whatever price he wants.

 

[samclem]

I'm plowing through it, but will likely not read every word (C'mon--she spent 4 1/2 pages on "Acknowledgements," !)


So far, there are strong echoes of the themes Thomas Frank brings up in "What's the Matter with Kansas?" In both cases the authors struggle to believe that people can support policies that don't directly benefit them, instead of supporting policies that would take resources from others and transfer them to those being interviewed. In my opinion, this says a lot more about the authors than it says about the subjects of the study.
Weiderspan's take on "family capital" is an interesting one, and reflects the very recent understanding that the "immediate" household (parents and children in one dwelling, no extended family) should be the defacto family unit, that support from extended family is properly viewed as unusual, and (I'm guessing she'd say) a more proper role for the state. This view would be quite alien to people living in many other parts of the world, or to the view held by most Americans before WWII.
Weiderspan uses the term "localized blame" to describe the situation when poor people see their economic situation as being the result of their own decisions. The use of the term "blame" rather than "responsibility" is telling. From her later recommendations, I believe she would say these people should more properly "blame" the economic system in general--as this would be more rational, would improve their self esteem, and would be the most effective means to prompt political changes that will benefit them. I'm hoping Weiderspan leverages the fulsome research on Locus of Control to explain the ramifications of her findings. People with "internal" locus of control (as Weiderpan's "localized blamers" apparently do) have less anxiety than those with an external locus of control.


Anyway, as time permits I'll hack through some more.

 

[Winemaker]

Last time I looked, people were trying to get themselves or their kids into the US at all costs, and we are trying to limit them so we can vet them better.

I also noticed, that there were not many people moving out of the US, even take a boat to Cuba.

 

[razztazz]

Last time I looked, people were trying to get themselves or their kids into the US at all costs, and we are trying to limit them so we can vet them better.

I also noticed, that there were not many people moving out of the US, even take a boat to Cuba.

A) It's not the worst place by a long shot. But anyplace looks like heaven next to a 3rd world pit of despair. You are damning with faint praise. I used to wonder why old people would always say that when I was young.

B) Can't afford it. Takes money to travel and set up shop. Other countries have standards and historically have not been so into waves of cheap labor at the expense of their own people.

 

[griffithee]

a couple of days ago, Bob (@imoldernu) posted a link to a blog written by Charles Hugh Smith (oftwominds.com). I read the article that he linked to and then got sucked down the rabbit. Smith has a considerable number of articles (like lots and lots) that discuss the 1%, crony capitalism, the wealth gap, the next credit bubble (which evidently we are in), and a whole bunch of other things that are kind of depressing, if true. Moreover, a lot of his posts sort of address the fact that the American dream does not exist and it is all the Feds fault for it all. So there is that perspective.

 

[HtownRose]

Agreed on the similarities to What's The Matter With Kansas? - person who knows what's best for others can't understand why those others don't think the same & vote accordingly.

 

[HtownRose]

Well there you have it. The rest is reduced to if's, and's, and buts. It always end up coming back around to the beginning

Perhaps I should have clarified that while hard work & smart choices do not guarantee you will never suffer poverty, it's the path many have taken with good results & the path that is available to many more than the path of receiving wealth from benefactors, & certainly more likely to succeed than laziness & dumb choices.

 

[armor99]

I do not comment on these forums much these days. But this topic is close to my heart so I thought I might respond.
I am a bit of a poker player. I have a regular game at my place. I view life in much the same light as a poker hand. It is not so much the hand you are dealt, as what you choose to do with that hand. Is there luck involved? Of course there is, but as any poker player will tell you, there are reasons good poker players tend to win more often over time.
There are no barriers in the US to your actions and choices. No govt agency will stop you from starting your own business, learning new skills, or sitting on your butt playing xbox all day. The choices you make determine the life you will have. Each one of us has barriers to overcome in life, and no two lives are the same. We all have luck both good and bad, but not always in equal measure. I know (as everyone knows) that fate is comming to kick my ass! The best I can do is prepare when times are good, so that when the blow comes, I will be as padded as possible.
As proof I offer the following. I am an engineer by trade. I like numbers. So I was curious about how much someone might need to save a month over say a 35 year working lifetime to retire a millionaire at 65. It is way too long to list it all out here (feel free to check it yourself). So I looked at the best and worst 35 year stretch on the stock market. I believe the worst was 6%, and the best was 12% (these are approximates, you get the idea). So I picked 10%, I like to be an optimist. I think when you calculate it all out it was in the $300 range a month saved, got you to that 1 million mark. I think the vast majority of people can really do that, if it is a priority for them. Just my thoughts.... thanks....

 

[skipro33]

Hard work and smart decisions. Now there's a pair just about nobody is going to agree on a definition. What is 'hard work' anyways? A migrant laborer knows more hard work than I'd be able to do in several lifetimes. My definition of hard work is defined my tenacity; a drive to never give up and never settle for 'good enough'. It's excellence by mastering a skill set and devoting myself to constant improvement.

Smart decisions depends on how smart the decision maker is. Can someone with a low IQ be capable of making consistent smart decisions? Is researching enough to reach a smart decision, or does it also include a willingness to take risk? My observation is that the financially successful are constantly taking risks. Not blindly, but after hard study and a comprehension of the process to reach such a goal. Smart decisions are not parroting another's path toward success. Life is just too variable for that.

 

[Denverite]

My two cents:
Yes, we were all lucky with being born in the Western Hemisphere where opportunity is a given.

But I think it ends there.

I certainly know people who were born to 'Wikipedia' level families, born insanely wealthy, Ivy League educated who--through their own poor choices-- are now scanning a register at Whole Foods.
I also know people who were born into poor, dysfunctional, alcoholic families, attended community college and through blood, sweat and tears are now vice presidents of the local banks or insurance agency.

It might just be me, but what I hear when I read the word 'lucky' is the "you didn't build this"/income distribution crowd telling me that somehow I owe a portion of my hard earned resources to those "unlucky" who've done little to better their lives.

Harumph!

Agreed. The "lucky" is just a repackaged version of "you were born into privilege and therefore you owe me because I wasn't." That argument has been around for decades but goes through periodic creative rephrasing. It persists because it generates votes for politicians - sometimes.

Also, it is conveniently ignored that some of the largest American-built fortunes have periodically been squandered, including the Vanderbilts. Then the "lucky" become members of the "unlucky."

I read that was once the largest private family fortune in the U.S. No longer, and I love the opening quote from Cornelius Vanderbilt in this article:

https://www.earlytorise.com/how-the-worlds-richest-family-went-broke/

As the Chinese say, "wealth never survives three generations." Point being: even the "lucky" face risk, just as we do. They are just less cognizant of it due to being coddled in their younger years and not realizing how difficult the original fortune was to build. A perfect recipe for bad financial decisions. Then it is welcome to the "unlucky."

 

[marko]

Pay more. That's how it works...

Doesn't work like that around here. Can't get anyone in a reasonable time frame at any price.

We pay top dollar, pay on time and the checks don't bounce...doesn't get us anything. Painter came over yesterday (after 4 missed appointments) and told us he couldn't start for 4 months; just for a 4 day job to paint a kitchen.

 

[pb4uski]

Studies point to the fact that almost all OECD countries have greater economic mobility than the US.

Then we should give immigrants who seek to enter this country illegally copies of those studies and directions to those countries.... problem solved.

 

[Gumby]

I'm plowing through it, but will likely not read every word (C'mon--she spent 4 1/2 pages on "Acknowledgements," !)


So far, there are strong echoes of the themes Thomas Frank brings up in "What's the Matter with Kansas?" In both cases the authors struggle to believe that people can support policies that don't directly benefit them, instead of supporting policies that would take resources from others and transfer them to those being interviewed. In my opinion, this says a lot more about the authors than it says about the subjects of the study.
Weiderspan's take on "family capital" is an interesting one, and reflects the very recent understanding that the "immediate" household (parents and children in one dwelling, no extended family) should be the defacto family unit, that support from extended family is properly viewed as unusual, and (I'm guessing she'd say) a more proper role for the state. This view would be quite alien to people living in many other parts of the world, or to the view held by most Americans before WWII.
Weiderspan uses the term "localized blame" to describe the situation when poor people see their economic situation as being the result of their own decisions. The use of the term "blame" rather than "responsibility" is telling. From her later recommendations, I believe she would say these people should more properly "blame" the economic system in general--as this would be more rational, would improve their self esteem, and would be the most effective means to prompt political changes that will benefit them. I'm hoping Weiderspan leverages the fulsome research on Locus of Control to explain the ramifications of her findings. People with "internal" locus of control (as Weiderpan's "localized blamers" apparently do) have less anxiety than those with an external locus of control.


Anyway, as time permits I'll hack through some more.

Steinbeck is quoted* as saying "socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." But, as your avatar is often quoted* as saying, "denial ain't just a river in Egypt".



*Incorrectly, it seems in both cases.

 

[imoldernu]

Wondering how many, here on ER, have started their own business... from scratch. Do you know what the success rate is?

https://www.fundera.com/blog/what-percentage-of-small-businesses-fail

Much of our discussion here seems to revolve around being smart, making good decisions, and having support, from whatever source.

So, about good decisions... Picking the right career?, the right company?, how much to save? working long hours? avoiding unnecessary expenses? planning for a family (or not)? studying investment economics?

Support? Born into wealth? inherited? Or... the ego thing? I did it myself?

Back to the top... maybe an overview of the American Dream. Starting your own business and succeeding. How about courage? and Luck (whatever that means to you).

Then there's the "Smart" thing... Is it IQ? or being in the right place at the right time?... or maybe somebody else who provided guidance and support?

Do we make it on our own, or is success based on having a firm footing to begin with? Is the American way based on equal opportunity, or hierarchical continuity?

Tough questions. Vanity tells me I did it myself. That my contribution to the American Way was the volunteerism and give back through family provisions that helped others to be a part of the "equality" that our country professes.

Maybe, if success is measured by money and the taxes I paid to our government, then I am a failure.

......................................................................................................
So... Time to pick sides... Guess I must lean toward a modified communism, not for the government or government ownership, but a basic level of equality and education for everyone... with an opportunity for achievers to advance without debt. An equal start and support for those who can give back. My vision of the American Dream.

 

[ERD50]

...

So, about good decisions... Picking the right career?, the right company?, how much to save? working long hours? ...

Add to that, the ability to adapt. And to keep your eyes open for opportunities to adapt. Like if you picked the wrong career, or the wrong company - do you just stick it out, or do you actively seek out positive alternatives. Or jut better opportunities, even if the present ones are OK (rather than actually 'wrong').

-ERD50

 

[Megg1141]

Wondering how many, here on ER, have started their own business... from scratch. Do you know what the success rate is?

After working in construction for 28 yrs, I was a casualty of the 2008 crash. Having to reinvent myself I started a commercial cleaning business from zero. Going door to door handing out cards, I was cleaning at night while soliciting new business during the day. I was lucky to have my son to help with the cleaning and I guaranteed him a paycheck while I built the business and was payed last. Three years into it my wife quit her job and came on board. We expanded with two new vans and have our current three crews working. Everyone told us starting a business in that environment was crazy and was not going to last. I felt if we succeeded in that environment it would only get easier as things got better. We are just past our tenth year and we doing just fine. If a high school "C" student can start a business at the age of 50, in the worst economic environment of the last 50 yrs, I believe the American dream is doing just fine.

 

[Running_Man]

Bad spending decisions are the overwhelming cause of almost all problems. If a service station attendant and janitor can save 8 million do not claim the poor are exploited. This is not to say people do not need help, nor that they get into desperate situations that appear unmanageable. i believe it is an obligation of the individual to help other people, but establishing rules for everyone on how to implement help is counter productive.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...1ab95a0600b_story.html?utm_term=.eb715e839882


I hope that the economic system is not chosen that leads to an easy path for people to get through life. People need a guiding principle of character, not a guiding principle of ease, I think Al Pacino sums up my thoughts on what society choses for a future:

 

[Eagle43]

I'd almost certainly be dead by now, having lived a life that was "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short".

But I got lucky. I was born in the U.S., in one of the wealthiest counties in the country (although as the son of an electrician and a secretary we were ourselves not wealthy) but that gave me access to one of the better public school systems in the country. I also had housing, regular meals, medical care, and all the other bennies that came with 1950's and '60's suburbia.

I think there is little question that luck plays a role. The bigger issue of course is what one does with that luck.

Bingo. I, too, am lucky. I believe being born in the U.S.A is winning the lottery. You could not have a better chance to pursue happiness and wealth than here. Apologies to those who think otherwise, but it is my belief.

 

[marko]

Steinbeck is quoted* as saying "socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." .

A great quote!! But I wonder if that mindset remains true today. A lot has changed since Steinbecks day.

 

[pj.mask]

Being allowed to be a graduate student in the PHD program for 11 years to complete your "dissertation" which is a collection of family notes of 40 people with an average family income of $115,000 to make a statement on a need for change in the United States economic system. That someone with so little ability to finish a project, and incidental in her study only 6 out of the 40 even agreed with her conclusion that the economic system is unjust to most people, and despite most people not agreeing with the hard-learned - 16 years of education to print this dissertation on fixing the US economy - she offers the outline for this work to begin - basically political advocacy of social workers to change the view of Americans to conform to the Social Workers world view how an economy should be based.

You seem really offended by her academic pursuits. Do you have any closely know anyone (including yourself) who has a PhD? It is something to be quite proud of.

I have half the credits towards a masters but never completed because no financial incentive but work closely with several highly educated people and from my experiences with them would not look down on someone who has outstanding academic achievements.

 

[Fedup]

Bingo. I, too, am lucky. I believe being born in the U.S.A is winning the lottery. You could not have a better chance to pursue happiness and wealth than here. Apologies to those who think otherwise, but it is my belief.

I hear this often but I think the homeless in SF would disagree with you.

 

[Eagle43]

I hear this often but I think the homeless in SF would disagree with you.

Well choice is another element. You can win the lottery, and squander it. Or you could invest it and double or triple it. Choice does make a difference.

 

[pj.mask]

So do we want to scrap a system that rewards hard work & smart choices and replace it with a system that rewards laziness & dumb choices? Some would say some of our programs already do this, with predictable results.

I think this is a fundamental disagreement here. Some people see funneling 400million to your kids to avoid estate tax as “hard work” and others see it as a ‘system that allows the rich to break the rules and increase their wealth while the poor don’t have options’ - similar to successful doctors Incorporating themselves offshore so they can avoid taxes; know a few who do this. Unfortunately I, as a salaried employee don’t really have that option and end up paying 20% of my income in taxes.

Sure, I could ‘pull myself up by my bootstraps, start my own business, and incorporate overseas as well to avoid taxes’ but I don’t believe the cost of the legal services would outweigh the savings for my income. So instead, I subsidize the Rick doctor with my tax money and I subsidize the rich real estate developer (and his low paid workers) with my taxes.

 

[pb4uski]

.....similar to successful doctors Incorporating themselves offshore so they can avoid taxes; know a few who do this. ....

I'm skeptical and would love for you to share the details. Are these doctors U.S. citizens? Are the services performed in the U.S. or abroad?

 

[redduck]

.
...We pay top dollar, pay on time and the checks don't bounce...doesn't get us anything. Painter came over yesterday (after 4 missed appointments) and told us he couldn't start for 4 months; just for a 4 day job to paint a kitchen.

Studies point to the fact that almost all OECD countries have greater economic mobility than the US.

Then we should give immigrants who seek to enter this country illegally copies of those studies and directions to those countries.... problem solved.

Bad idea. Do that, pb4uski, and poor marko will never get his kitchen painted.