Housing in your 80s—WWYD for parent?

[tb001]

Curious to hear from others who may have struggled with this. Quick background: my mom is a *very* healthy 79 yrs old. Lives out on a large property in the country, far away from medical and from family. Very active and rides horses every day. They are a huge part of her life. Her husband is 91 and starting to fail. I’m thinking forward to the day when he’s not around and trying to figure out what makes the most sense. She recognizes that their current property is too much upkeep, but living remotely in a place where she can have horses is a huge part of her happiness.

She’s agreed to consider relocating near me when he passes away, but is adamant that she wants a property in the country where she can have horses. And right now, she can manage it. But her mother developed dementia and had to go into a home at 82 and I can definitely see that her memory isn’t 100%.

So at 80 something, what do you do? Finances are ok, but not great. I’m wondering if it might make more sense to find a rental but not sure she would go for it. Is it insane for her to think about buying a new property with this kind of upkeep/profile at 80? She’s so healthy and active that it’s hard to imagine anything different, but a lot can change in a few years...

 

[W2R]

I don't know her, or you, and I have never had to deal with a similar situation. Anyway, in my imagination this is what I'd do:

I'd get her into a good continual care place near your home, where they could give her increasing care if she needs it as she ages, including dementia care. Taking care of a parent with dementia is almost more than most people can handle by themselves, from what I understand, and this way you could visit her frequently but also know that she is getting the care she needs when you aren't there with her.

Also I'd find a place somewhere in the countryside where you could take her to ride horses (for a fee), if there is such a place within reasonable driving distance. Then I'd take her there every weekend as long as she wants to go, and is able to do this safely.

 

[aaronc879]

Could she rent out a room to a younger person at a reduced rate in exchange for doing work around the property? You could help with the background check and such. I would try to support her in staying where she is happy and active for as long as she is those things. When her health goes down then she could sell and move closer to you.

 

[RunningBum]

Can you hire someone to help them with upkeep, and keep an eye on their mental state? Maybe comes by once a week or whatever schedule is needed. I think sometimes when you pull someone from a place they love and are doing well, it hastens their decline.

One issue would be to keep them away from finances. Unless you are absolutely certain you can trust them, this is the type of situation where elders can misplace trust in such a person and give them access to money.

 

[Spock]

As active as you describe her, if she's happy, leave her be. She can move into a care facility later when needed.
Although the ideas above about keeping a horse at a nearby stable is creative.

In my current position, I would have her formally declare you as guardian (POA's are POS's) so that if/when the dementia does come, you won't have to go to court to get her declared incompetent.

 

[braumeister]

As active as you describe her, if she's happy, leave her be. She can move into a care facility later when needed.

Makes sense to me. My mom was pretty healthy, alert, and quite active into her 80s, but slowed down and wore out pretty quickly around 83-84 years old. I got her a place in a retirement community where she could get three meals a day and have lots of company, with assistance as needed. She resisted for a while, but finally agreed to the move. One week later she started giving me a hard time for not telling her years ago about how great it was.

In other words, just play it by ear and don't push her before she needs the push.

 

[HI Bill]

I'd leave her be at the moment, but look into care facilities (assisted living, etc.), and look into horse boarding facilities. There are some that take care of your horse for you, and you can come ride anytime. At 80, a single fall from a horse is likely to break the hip or pelvis, and the independent lifestyle will be over in the blink of an eye.

Good news is, I'm sure riding is helping keep her muscles strong, as well as her mind, and her sense of balance, so she may have many more years of riding left!!!

 

[Koolau]

I would begin to look into one of those devices she can wear which would alert you (or appropriate medical folks) if she were to fall (say, from a horse) and would be unable to reach help. Other than that, I'd suggest letting her live her life as she sees fit. WHEN she is no longer competent (hopefully, that time does not come) to take care of herself, you would likely seek elder-law advice on becoming guardian. MIL went into dementia and her son (my BIL) got legal guardianship and placed her into a nice facility which was able to meet most of her needs. She resented it for a while, but eventually adjusted and was able to cope until her failing accelerated and she needed skilled care.

This is a tough one. Both of my parents needed care eventually. When the time came, they accepted my help (I was close by - just a few blocks) and then they accepted my advice to go to skilled nursing facility. It is different for each situation. Pray that things go well for your mom and her husband. Often it does. But be prepared to step in and "take control" to the extent it is allowed in your state - every state is different so YMMV. All the best.

 

[HI Bill]

As a salesperson at an assisted living facility once told me: There is no perfect time (to make the transition). It's either too early, or too late.

 

[tb001]

Ah, I should have been more clear. She’s definitely selling her current home. It’s far more upkeep and money to maintain than she can manage. She has a caretaker living on the property to help, but 30 acres with a lot of associated maintenance is just too much.

Initially she was hell bent on subdividing the property and building a new home on a small lot, which has been her plan for many years. She was a contractor, so not as crazy as it sounds, but a lot to take on at her stage in life.

So if she needs to sell, I’d like to have her closer and I think she’d like to be closer to grandkids. The horses make things more complicated. She’s adamant that she doesn’t want to stable them. Even if she can’t ride, just going out to feed gives her a horse fix.

I just don’t want her to spend two years transitioning and getting things set up and then not have time to enjoy it, though I know the transitions for her are part of the fun!

And I’m wondering if it even makes sense to buy or if we should be looking for a rental that she could make her own.

And thanks for the advice on not letting her be taken advantage of. That’s a huge worry for me. Her DH lost about a quarter of their retirement savings in a scam, so it’s top of mind.

 

[tb001]

Koolau, the fall detector is a good idea. I’m pushing her to get an Apple Watch for this and the heart monitor. Many of the places she rides now don’t have cell signal, but better than nothing!

We’re working on poa and getting me access to financials now, just to get a handle on spend and how secure she is financially. Unfortunately her husband handles most of this and she doesn’t have a great sense for how much there is/will be.

Eta, just saw that you suggested Gaurdian and not POA—thanks for the advice!

 

[Katsmeow]

In my current position, I would have her formally declare you as guardian (POA's are POS's) so that if/when the dementia does come, you won't have to go to court to get her declared incompetent.

POAs are bit POS's. There are some significant difference between a POA and a guardianship. My mom had a POA and it worked. My DH is 71 and totally mentally competent. Assuming he was mentally competent at 79 (or I was at 79 myself) I can't imagine turning over guardianship to someone even if I trusted them. I just wouldn't do it. I would not want someone else making decisions for me. I would think very few mentally competent people would want a guardianship (and that even assumes a court would sign off on it which I would doubt).

She recognizes that their current property is too much upkeep, but living remotely in a place where she can have horses is a huge part of her happiness.

She’s agreed to consider relocating near me when he passes away, but is adamant that she wants a property in the country where she can have horses.

Look for areas nearby that allow horses but are not remote and in the country. We have lived in two different acreage subdivisions that allowed horses. They were not out in the country. One of them had a grocery store within 10 minutes and some other stores closer. The other was about 20 minutes from a grocery store. I also had property in a subdivision that was unrestricted and a number of the residents had horses. That subdivision was very close to lots of amenities.

 

[HI Bill]

And thanks for the advice on not letting her be taken advantage of. That’s a huge worry for me. Her DH lost about a quarter of their retirement savings in a scam, so it’s top of mind.

As my mom was starting to have difficulty paying her bills, I had her sign a POA. The bank didn't want to see or use it.

They simply added me as an account holder to her checking and savings accounts, which has some potential drawbacks including liability. I had myself added to her retirement accounts statements, using the POA, although the financial company never granted me online access.

As a co-owner of the checking/savings, I could set up account alerts, pay bills, and monitor accounts for theft. You can also set up online account access and automatic payments for everything else, including automatic alerts (gas/electricity, water/sewer, trash, cable tv, phone, etc., credit cards, etc.), but the legality of this may be gray, unless you have a POA, and present it for each account. Having online statements, and eliminating mail reduces the liklihood of fraud, at least a little.

 

[Winemaker]

DW and I purchased a house 10 minutes away for DMIL and moved her in from another state. Banks give better rates for relatives buying houses for relatives, however, the bank kept screwing up the paperwork because normally it's the parents buying for the kids and not the other way around. But that's a different story.

We then hired a woman from our church who would come in and do light house work, laundry, fix a meal or two, play cards or a board game three days a week. DW and I stopped in every day,and we would sometimes bring a meal over that required more preparation. I cut the grass and maintained the unit but I could have easily hired it out. MIL did have a Genworth policy for elder care and it paid for the adult sitter. But we could have easily been able to pay her fees.

This went on for almost 4 years, before she passed at 88 due to a "cerebral event". I could have sold the house, but added it to the rental real estate portfolio, later.

 

[SteveNU]

Sounds like now is the time time to deal with this. My parents waited too long and had to deal with all the health issues at the same time that they finally realized they needed to move. It was a huge stressful time. And after my dad passed Mom was adamant about staying in her beautiful new home. We convinced her while she was in the hospital recovering from surgery that she wasn't going to be able to take care of herself and the house anymore. It became another very stressful time finding a new place to move her to and selling her old house. In both cases they waited too long!

 

[brucethebroker]

We had family members in the same situation. They converted their two car garage into a small apartment for the folks. A dozen years later, after the folks passed, they converted it back to a garage.

Original conversion costs were borne by the folks-much of which came from the sale of their former home. Much cheaper than renting during the decade of use. Keep the folks near by, but also gave them privacy.

This took place out in the country. I realize that it might be a problem (zoning) in some city locations.

 

[brucethebroker]

BTW, I have given up riding motorcycles and climbing tall ladders in the last few years. I am trying to reduce the risk of lifestyle changing injuries (broken hip, etc.). Mom still riding a horse everyday? I dunno about that.....

 

[imoldernu]

Think what braumeister said was perfect. One other possibility... our CCRC offers temporary apartment living (when apartments are available) for a week to a month... as a respite or trial to see what group retirement living is like... food, social events, companionship with other older persons. That happens quite often in our community.

..........................................................................................................

The thread is about parents and more or less, age 80... but... I'd like to toss in a thought for anyone still in the 55 to 70 age group. If the finances are okay, buy into a CCRC while you're "young"... one with a home, like ours...a "Villa"... giving you a home base, with the ability to move into any other part of the CCRC if/when the need arises.

YMMV, but that's what we did. We were still doing the snowbird 6 and 6 in 2004, when we were age 68. Still very active. That's when we bought our Villa. We continued, snowbirding for 8 more years... Winter in Florida, and using our Liberty Village villa as a home base for travel around the midwest the rest of the year. We were able to fit in with the CCRC society, making it easy to change over to full time living "up north", at age 76.

It was no more expensive than what we were doing before, and allowed us to buy the house (Villa) and to get over the five year "lookback" that could save one of us if things changed.

You probably skipped over the above explanation, because it doesn't apply to you and your own longer term plans. Consider then, what you'll do if you turn 80, and need continuing care. Just one alternative.

 

[ckelly78z]

I'm thinking that she gets a condo, or possibly a spot in an increasing care facility. Board one of her horses at a local farm (where they give lessons to youngsters), and have her feed, and care for her horse, and still feel like she has some freedom. Most boarding farms have a self care fee (where the renter does all the work), and a different fee for full care (where the farm workers feed/groom/excercise the horse).

 

[Spock]

POAs are bit POS's. There are some significant difference between a POA and a guardianship. My mom had a POA and it worked. My DH is 71 and totally mentally competent. Assuming he was mentally competent at 79 (or I was at 79 myself) I can't imagine turning over guardianship to someone even if I trusted them. I just wouldn't do it. I would not want someone else making decisions for me. I would think very few mentally competent people would want a guardianship (and that even assumes a court would sign off on it which I would doubt).

My first hand experience, YMMV:

POAs have a small value, but for the most part are worthless. A lot of financial institutions will not recognize them, including closing fraudulently opened lines of credit or trying to pay for a persons LTCI.
While a POA might work well for a person who is not going to put up a fight, POAs can be revoked during a dementia/memory episode so long as Mr. Hyde is acting like Dr. Jekyll that day. Thus they make a very poor vehicle for helping out elderly parents who fight tooth-and-nail for their independence while at the same time quitting their prescribed anti-depressants cold turkey, living in filth, and sending 30% of their income to every piece of junk mail or TV huckster that crosses their path.
A lot of revocable trusts have a provision for transferring control "when a Dr. signs a letter blah blah blah". But Drs won't sign the letter until it is way too late, if then. And like the POA, the person can have the trust rewritten to take that clause out when you try to implement it.


I have POA. I've worked with 3 social workers, an attorney, and a Dr and they all state I have to sit on my hands and watch until "something really bad happens" and then just hope "bad" does not equal "some gets killed".



If you trust a family member enough to make them your POA, you should be able to trust them enough to make them your guardian.

 

[Spock]

About stabling the horse or getting rides at a nearby stable: Be sure to check if the stable has age limits. A stable will not want any liability for elderly people falling off, getting trampled, etc.

 

[Teacher Terry]

Unless she gets dementia she gets to decide what to do. I really don’t understand telling your parents when to move and trying to force it.

 

[FIREd]

My mother is 72 years old. She has some mobility issues and her budget is pretty tight. She currently lives in a large condo (which I own). I can see the day when the condo will be too large for her to take care of and too expensive to maintain on her budget (the HOA fees are quite high). I recently moved "back home" and I purchased a 1-bedroom condo within walking distance of hers. I will live in the small condo for now, but we are planning to trade places down the road. The smaller condo will be easier for her to handle (both physically and financially). And she will remain in the neighborhood where she has all of her friends. The 1-bedroom condo will eventually become a rental.

 

[wmc1000]

My dad is 93 and I am glad he is still mentally sharp. The one thing he has always been steadfast in has been he isn't going to go into any assisted living facility.

 

[kgtest]

Curious to hear from others who may have struggled with this.

Did not struggle but mom should understand horse riding will slow 2x with almost every passing year and with extra care to dad, attention won't be 100% on the horses. I recommend down-size, pay to board the horse, maybe even rent the current property to someone who can manage and give a good rate to keep moms horse. Or board closer to medical services, since that is the strongest need IMHO.


I want to ski until I am 100, but I doubt that is reality.