Diet Wars

Just curious for those on you on keto type diets... Do you test for things like acidic pH, high end platelet counts or high IGF-1 levels, which some studies show are biomarkers for types of cancer?

Ketogenic diets have been shown to reduce IGF-1 (as well as fasting insulin, of course).

"acidic pH" would show up on any blood test, but that's not influenced much by diet (contrary to what Goop might tell you. :))

One of the biggest risk factors for various cancers is type-2 diabetes, and I'm sure you're aware of studies that show reversal of T2D on a keto diet.
 
A follow up to my previous question, do you test your base-forming dietary minerals, such as potassium, magnesium or calcium? Just curious how that works out. I feel like I have a hard enough time keeping my magnesium levels in range as it is, though I haven't had them tested in a while. That is one of the things on my get healthier to do list for this month.
 
Last edited:
The bang for the buck is where I'm coming from too.

From what I understand from fermenting beer (LOL), is that in mixed fermentation, one or maybe a few strains will dominate. So you might think equal access to food, they'd all get their fair share, but I'm not sure that's quite how it works. This is why (in my interpretation of OM's process) he cultivates each of the 4 separately at the beginning of a batch, only later combining those for consumption. Even then, using a non-mono strain, one doesn't know which strain is doing the most multiplying.

The good news is that the counts are going to go up for everything, and way up for some. So, again, bang for the buck.

Oh, OK. I re-read OM's recipe, and yeah, I think I read it differently, but your way makes sense. I will combine the different products after cultivating them separately for a few hours.
 
Align (Procter & Gamble)
*Bifidobacterium infantis 35624 (now genotyping puts it as B. longum ssp. longum strain 35624)

Osumex LB17 (Osumex Natural Alternatives Ltd)
Lactobacillus acidophilus
L. acetotoleruns
*L. amylovorus
L. bulgaricus
L. casei
*L plantarum
*L. brevis
L. fermentum
L. buchneri
Pediococcus pentosaceus
P. halophus
P. damnosus
Bifidobacterium bifidum
*B. longum
*Streptococcus thermophilus
Lactococcus lactis

Primadophilus Reuteri (Nature’s Way)
*Lactobacillus rhamnosus
L. acidophilus
*L. reuters HA-188

Bronson’s Perfect Probiotic (Bronson’s Laboratories)
*L. gasseri
*L. rhamnosus
B. bifidum
B. longum
*B. infantis
B. breve
B. lactis
*L. gasseri

Old Microbiologist, I did procure some Align and tried to make yogurt the way you specified in your recipe, but there's absolutely nothing happening to it even after over 8 hours in a yogurt maker. (I bought the yogurt maker with 7 glass jars with lids, probably just like the one you have.) The jar with Align looks and tastes just like the original milk after hours in the machine.) I imagine something is wrong with my Align? I ordered it via Amazon (I'm in Canada). I think I will go buy the same product from Costco and see.

I put another probiotic product (A Canadian probiotic supplement that has the necessary probiotics specified for your Bronson supplement) in another jar. That curdled nicely within 4 hours, so the milk (organic/heated-cooled) doesn't seem to be the issue...

I live in Canada, so I'm still waiting to receive my Osumex LB17 and Primadophilus Reuteri from the US...
 
Last edited:
Old Microbiologist, I did procure some Align and tried to make yogurt the way you specified in your recipe, but there's absolutely nothing happening to it even after over 8 hours in a yogurt maker. (I bought the yogurt maker with 7 glass jars with lids, probably just like the one you have.) The jar with Align looks and tastes just like the original milk after hours in the machine.
That's the single, patented strain, right? I wonder if you got a non-viable batch. Makes one wonder how many "live cultures" yogurts are being sold that have no live cultures. Who would know unless you tried to make your own.
 
That's the single, patented strain, right? I wonder if you got a non-viable batch. Makes one wonder how many "live cultures" yogurts are being sold that have no live cultures. Who would know unless you tried to make your own.
Yes, that's the one. I was wondering about the same thing.
 
Last edited:
Yes, that's the one. I was wondering about the same thing.
I have zero experience with yogurt making and strain selection, but I don't think this single strain would be able to multiply significantly without changing the flavor; the sugars should be consumed, at minimum, and you'd be able to taste that, even if the products of metabolism weren't as apparent with this strain as the traditional sour tasting products from traditional yogurt making strains.
 
I have zero experience with yogurt making and strain selection, but I don't think this single strain would be able to multiply significantly without changing the flavor; the sugars should be consumed, at minimum, and you'd be able to taste that, even if the products of metabolism weren't as apparent with this strain as the traditional sour tasting products from traditional yogurt making strains.
Right. Plus Old Biologist's recipe was really detailed. If the Align mixture wasn't supposed to curdle, he probably would have mentioned it, but that's just my guess.
 
I asked on Amazon for the product "If I add this to milk in my yogurt maker, will I be able to smell, taste and see signs of fermentation?"

Many times, my questions sit for a few days, then are removed with no answer. But maybe we'll get lucky.
 
I asked on Amazon for the product "If I add this to milk in my yogurt maker, will I be able to smell, taste and see signs of fermentation?"

Many times, my questions sit for a few days, then are removed with no answer. But maybe we'll get lucky.
I got two answers. I suspect one of the answers (no sign of fermentation) was yours, hehe! The other one was not very convincing (basically they said "it should", but that's not as convincing as "It did for me").
 
Isn't the production of an ample amount of probiotic CFUs in an end product, fairly dependent not only on starting with a viable culture, but also the length of the fermentation process and holding at a specific temperature? Also, please correct me if my memory is faulty, but I believe I've read that strains can vary with respect to required temperature and hold time?..so if that is the case, how could they be combined? wouldn't you culture them separately...maybe combine them in your food bowl?
 
I got two answers. I suspect one of the answers (no sign of fermentation) was yours, hehe! The other one was not very convincing (basically they said "it should", but that's not as convincing as "It did for me").

:2funny: Amazon answers can be hit and miss. At least, you didn't get one of those "I don't know" answers. :LOL:

More experiment results:

Reuteri (Nature's Way) - It did change the smell in 4 hours but no curdling. It took a full 8 hours to curdle, but it did curdle.

Yesterday, I went to Costco and bought Align and tested that again. This time, I checked after about 2-3 hours and I swear, I could smell the sour smell. Then I went out and checked maybe 5 hours into it and no smell... Hmm... After 8 hours, no smell, no curdling, no nothing I can detect, so I don't know if I actually smelled something or maybe it was a residual smell from the yogurt maker...

So now, I am suspecting that maybe the temp on this yogurt maker I bought may be too high (which someone mentioned in the review of another product.) I ordered another yogurt maker, but this time, wit temp adjustment (I will be returning the one I currently have that has no temp control. Both were purchased via amazon...)

The Wheat Belly guy makes yogurt out of reuteri and he says it needs a lower temp than yogurt and it needs a longer fermentation time than yogurt... Although... my reuteri curdled within 10 hours.... Hmm...
Here's his recipe. He seems to think this particular strain has tons of benefits (including boosting the level of oxytocin :eek:)...

https://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2019...:~:text=reuteri.,in the Wheat Belly lifestyle).

As for Align, I didn't find anybody trying to make yogurt with it, so I will have to experiment with different temps and see how it goes...
 
Last edited:
As for Align, I didn't find anybody trying to make yogurt with it, so I will have to experiment with different temps and see how it goes...
This will be valuable research!

Another answer, from the official channel said "we don't recommend breaking open the capsules". Yeah, I bet not. If we can figure out how to grow-up your patented strain, we can get billions more CFU's without having to buy them!

Do you have a microscope? Or maybe I should back-up. If one had a microscope, I think it's possible to estimate the number of cells (some brewer buddies of mine tried it with yeast, but I've never tried it). Might be interesting, though. They have microscopes they hook to their computers and share images.
 
This will be valuable research!

Another answer, from the official channel said "we don't recommend breaking open the capsules". Yeah, I bet not. If we can figure out how to grow-up your patented strain, we can get billions more CFU's without having to buy them!

Do you have a microscope? Or maybe I should back-up. If one had a microscope, I think it's possible to estimate the number of cells (some brewer buddies of mine tried it with yeast, but I've never tried it). Might be interesting, though. They have microscopes they hook to their computers and share images.

Yeah, they want to make money first and foremost!

No, I don't own a microscope LOL. Never needed one, but I hear ya, it would be interesting to see.
 
Isn't the production of an ample amount of probiotic CFUs in an end product, fairly dependent not only on starting with a viable culture, but also the length of the fermentation process and holding at a specific temperature? Also, please correct me if my memory is faulty, but I believe I've read that strains can vary with respect to required temperature and hold time?..so if that is the case, how could they be combined? wouldn't you culture them separately...maybe combine them in your food bowl?


Old Microbiologist who posted his recipe cultures each one separately for the first several hours, although I haven't even gotten past that stage yet. Hopefully, OM will shed some light on your questions...
 
This will be valuable research!

My yogurt maker with temp adjustment won't arrive for another week, but I took out my bulky sous vide box (bigger than a standard toaster oven!) and set the machine to 100F (though it goes up to 101F) and started another experiment. Two previous probiotic caps that I couldn't get to curdle (Osumex LB17 and Align, separately) in the no-temp control yogurt machine are now curdling nicely when I checked them 4.5 hours later. :) I don't detect much sour smell yet though... The Wheat Belly Guy runs his Reuteri/prebiotic mixture for about 10 hours... I may add more milk and maybe mix them up and see, but I'm not sure when to stop. I guess you need to stop before it gets too acidic as the acid will start killing off the good germs...
 
Last edited:
Sorry, I didn't get any notices of posting until this morning and am not all that great at watching threads.

As I mentioned these probiotics have wild claims about how many bacteria are present which are so far off it should be illegal to sell them as false advertising. However, they appear to have what they say they do and I had used a source that has validated these suppliers for accuracy of contents. Storage is a big problem for living cultures and they don't like the lyophilization process and generally lose 99% unless a lot of care is used in drying them down in a vacuum freezer. Since those machines are now considered to be tools for manufacturing weapons of mass destruction I suppose the methods used today have to accommodate the realities of the world today.

What you are seeing is the effect of this. Yes, I continue until they curdle the first go-around and it can take overnight. I didn't mention it explicitly and I apologize for that. These were quick and dirty instructions and I often forget that people really don't understand the techniques well. Having worked in micro labs since 1971 I take it for granted.

They key to doing this successfully is to not use too much milk. Roughly 50ml to get started is sufficient. Sometimes it doesn't curdle but you get small lumps instead. This is okay and you can expand from there. The other thing to take care of is using as close to sterile technique as you can. You don't have to go insane about it but whatever is on your hands can end up in the culture and these often overwhelm the yogurt strains so some amount of care is necessary. I would wear your COVID masks and fresh gloves. wash my hands while wearing the gloves if I get them contaminated. Normal cleaning of the jars is sufficient as long as you rinse them with very hot water. That is sufficient to sanitize them but not sterilize. If you want to sterilize stuff I recommend using 10% fresh bleach solution and immerse for 10 minutes then rinse well with hot water. I usually don't bother as my techniques are good. But, it might be necessary. The first set of cultures is important. I also use food grade 5 ml sample tubes with attached snap caps. Something like these: https://www.amazon.com/GBSTORE-Cont...=food+grade+5+ml+tubes&qid=1616308741&sr=8-44

I freeze down each Probiotic separately in small ziplock bags and make-up 10 or so as Master Cultures. When I want to start a fresh batch for consumption, I thaw one each of the master cultures with probiotics into 50ml of milk and grow them up then combine them together and expand from that. Generally, in a -20 freezer you can keep them 2 years or so but you will lose some viability over time which will be seen in longer incubation times. When it gets over 8 hours start fresh again. From the combined batch I make up 10 or so tubes and freeze these down in a separate bag. These become the Secondary Culture. These I use to start each batch for consumption. I don't bother labeling each tube but each ziplock bag is important to write the contents and date you made it.

I don't judge by smell at all only the consistency of the milk after culturing. After a while, you get a feel for it and it becomes second nature. Really it doesn't take up a lot of time.

You can also use an Instant Pot on the Yogurt setting for very large batches if you have more people eating yogurt. As I am the only one in our house eating these a batch lasts me a week eating one per day.

I need to add that any off-color is a sign of something gone wrong. I have had problems with pink growth on the surface in the refrigerator. Usually, this is from either a fungus (that continues to grow at refrigerator temperatures) or bacterial contamination. If you see that then you are harboring a contaminant and it must be tossed and start fresh.

A quick explanation is that microbes we are interested in grow at body temperature. Soil bacteria such as pseudomonas etc. grow at room temperature. Every organism has an environmental niche of temperature, pH, etc. and will grow well in these conditions but not in others (thankfully). So, our organisms of interest will not grow well (they grow at very slow rates at 4 degrees C) but others like that temperature so a contaminant can easily overwhelm our cultures. Also, every probiotic I know of is contaminated with "normal" yogurt cultures in addition to the ones we are interested in. These appear to be adapted to grow better so eventually also wipe out our minor strains in the culture. The normal Acidophilus strains are fine and healthy so it isn't a bad thing but after time you lose the additional strains. This is why I don't passage from current cultures (use one container to make a new batch without thawing any frozen secondaries) very long. I have squeezed out 3 passages but don't recommend doing that. I get lazy too. If I had a working lab I would actually work the details out and know for certain what is happening but in lieu of that, I am using my guestimate of what I think is happening.
 
Last edited:
tmm99 - I have grown them to absolute acidity. These strains are adapted to grow in high acidity so you won't kill them off if you get very low pH's. It is in fact better to go longer. I grow mine for roughly 12 hours and after you refrigerate them they congeal and the whey gets separated which you pour off. after they cool down. It has a high concentration of acetic acid the metabolic byproduct of fermentation. The lower the pH and the more contaminants that are killed off. All of these organisms are adapted to grow at very acidic levels and are why they survive stomach acidity. I like mine very acidic as it means there are a lot of bacteria in there. The more the better! I add erythritol to it to cut the acid taste. I am on keto so don't eat sugar at all but erythritol is close enough. I actually love the taste but my wife can't stand it. Everyone is different. I consider it medicine so the taste isn't really a big factor but I do want to enjoy it. For me it is a nice last meal treat and is my dessert after dinner.

I will add that it is these same bacteria that make up the normal flora in the vagina (also breast milk) and why women don't get infections in an area so close to the rectum with heavy concentrations of E. coli and other offensive bacteria. These cultures can be used as a douche for vaginitis caused by an overgrowth of offensive bacteria.

I will add as well that if someone is taking a broad-spectrum antibiotic that their normal flora is killed off too. These organisms are all gram-positive and susceptible to all antibiotics so easily killed. This creates an opportunity for bad bacteria to come in afterward. Using yogurt is important to re-establish good bacteria and even using a rinse of a dilute suspension in the skin and hair after taking antibiotics is a good idea. It won't hurt you to do that. Wash off the rinse afterward as these bacteria will get into small areas and push out offensive bacteria/fungus.

I also recommend taking the yogurt as the last meal before bedtime. There are bacteria in there that will grow in the mouth that will push out bad bacteria that cause dental caries. Because it is pretty well established that heart disease is a byproduct of poor oral hygiene that this might also prevent heart attacks and strokes.

There is a whole field of study about bacterial communication and slime systems (biofilms) that explain how these organisms function inside a biological ecosystem. Here is a nice easy to understand source:https://www.cs.montana.edu/webworks...ters/chapter001/section006/green/page003.html
 
I do. My brother's fourth wife got him into veganism because he has heart disease. She is a fantastic vegan cook!

It's not out of animal activism.

I don't know a single vegan or vegetarian in it for health reasons. And I know a lot of vegans (I'm vegetarian not vegan)
 
Last edited:
There is a whole field of study about bacterial communication and slime systems (biofilms) that explain how these organisms function inside a biological ecosystem. Here is a nice easy to understand source:https://www.cs.montana.edu/webworks...ters/chapter001/section006/green/page003.html
Interesting. One time I had the biofilm blues when brewing beer (beer was good at first, but started to develop off-flavors as time passed that the guys at the meeting suggested was a brettanomyces growth). But I had done my "usual" cleanings and sanitizating with StarSan (which had worked for years). I got more aggressive and haven't had the problem since. When I see people making fermentables without gloves, I cringe. I'm sure they didn't use gloves in the old days, but if I'm going to have to touch something that's going to sit and ferment, I'm going to have gloves on.
 
tmm99 - I have grown them to absolute acidity. These strains are adapted to grow in high acidity so you won't kill them off if you get very low pH's. It is in fact better to go longer. I grow mine for roughly 12 hours and after you refrigerate them they congeal and the whey gets separated which you pour off. after they cool down. It has a high concentration of acetic acid the metabolic byproduct of fermentation.

Old Microbiologist,

Thank you for your explanation! I think I will increase the number of hours so they get a bit more tart, which I like better anyway. I have one question. Why do you pour off the whey (to be thrown out, I imagine)? I thought the whey (the clear liquid that separates from the curdled milk) contained beneficial bacteria as well? (I used to make lacto-fermented sauerkraut using whey (with less salt)...) I've been drinking the whey as well as eating the curdled milk/yogurt... Is it better to discard the whey?
 
Last edited:
New study just published by Jeff Volek, well-known keto researcher. Interesting because it failed to confirm the hypothesis that boosting ketones helps preserve muscle mass in a weight loss setting. (Also, no sig diff in fat loss or body comp vs low-fat diet.)

... short-term changes in body composition during caloric restriction are driven by caloric restriction more so than level of ketosis or macronutrient distribution.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut.2021.618520/full
 
Last edited:
I don't know a single vegan or vegetarian in it for health reasons. And I know a lot of vegans (I'm vegetarian not vegan)

I think more people eat "whole food, plant based" for health.

It is a subset of being vegan but without the social responsibility aspect and outward message.

Eat for health. What is interesting is eating WFPB and/or for health (selfishness) also has the same benefits as being vegan. Just cut out the vegan junk food and processed imitation stuff.

I might drive a hybrid electric car because it matches my driving style and uses less gasoline. I'm not doing it for the environment, but because I like it. But it has the same impact as someone doing something specifically for the environment. If that makes any sense.

Better yet, I have 4 bicycles and prefer that because it gets me outside, exercise, health benefits, but it also uses less gas/less pollution, etc. My bike destroys my hybrid car in that respect.

The virtue of selfishness...people say, are you vegan? nah..I eat for health..whether they are different or not as a result for the environment can be discussed. Do you ride bike for the environment? Nah, I like to ride bike and it is good for me.
 
Back
Top Bottom