Neighbor's Wood Smoke Unbearable; Appears There's No Legal Recourse; What to Do?

[NateW]

Well....... sorta but not exactly.

I have an older (40+years) Vermont Castings woodstove and use it frequently every winter. In the beginning, I subscribed to "cult" magazines and newsletters and really tried to keep on top of all the scuttlebutt regarding burning wood. We use it less these days.

A hot fire of dry wood generates very little smoke. It's hard to have a hot fire with green wood, so your theory is correct in that regard. But, you can also have a smoky fire with properly seasoned hardwoods. Just load up the stove and starve it for air. People do this to maximize burn time and reduce trips to reload the stove and, of course, just to have the stove put our less heat. This is especially true with a low tech stove.

Just sayin' that OP could buy his neighbor seasoned hardwood and still have most of the problem depending on how the neighbor runs his stove and what type of stove it is. It couldn't hurt though.

It would take:

1. Good wood
2. Good stove
3. Knowledgeable, interested stove operator willing to do things right.

The way OP has described things, it doesn't sound like there is any straight forward way to make this all happen.

Good points. After reading a few wood burning stove forum threads, I began seeing a combination of factors, some of which may never be fixed. The smoke is thick and heavy and after exiting the chimney does a 180 and flows down the sides of the chimney. Cold fire, poor draw, and or choked off air. I read a couple research papers on the polution dangers of this type of fire and I was amazed at the amount of carbon monoxide and particulates and countless other nasty substances produced.

 

[NateW]

That's a lot of smoke.
I would strategize a plan and make sure your wife is okay with everything.
Start looking at other homes, get a feel for what you can get and what you would like to change (besides the smoke issue), maybe a bigger kitchen or whatnot. Go to some open houses. In the spring, when the neighbor isn't using their stove go over there and talk to them, tell them you noticed they burn and you have a couple cords of seasoned hardwood they can have. Don't say anything about the smoke issue, just see what their response is. If they are appreciative perhaps you could buy them a couple cords and that will solve the problem short term, then remain on talking terms. Over time once a relationship develops then state the issue when they burn crap wood.

If their response is f you, get lost, then there's no reason not to move, at that point it's over and you tried. If you move without at least talking to them, that will bother you over time.

You never know how some people will react. A long time ago, we lived in a subdivision and my wife politely asked the neighbor to turn down their music they were blasting. So they cranked it up even further.

Thanks Bob_Walter. I have a hard enough time approaching a stranger to just say hello. I'm pretty emotional about this and I am not sure how it would turn out. I also don't want them to know who sent the fire marshal. I know some people can be revengeful or jealous. In there eyes I bet they see us as wealthy and they may be jealous of us.

 

[NateW]

My sister wasn't angry either, just fearful. But she also had small kids and felt latched to the house, which made it more intense. Therefore, I think your suggestion of going on down the highway on a nice day is excellent! Get away from the situation for a while, enjoy some nice air. Maybe you can get to the Blue Ridge parkway or something. A day with sun and crisp winter scenes can do wonders.

That day will be tomorrow Joe. It will be the first big outing for us since a few weeks ago! We have cabin fever! We used to think we had a nice comfortable house and could wait it out no matter how long the pandemic rages on. This is one of the reasons I have been so upset about this.

 

[Jerry1]

Given that this is affecting you so greatly, and you have a suspicion that the homeowner may be burning something nasty, and you don’t want to engage him directly, what about an anonymous delivery of some clean, dry, split hardwood? Shouldn’t cost too much and chances are real good that he’d use it. This might get you through this winter until you can move.

 

[Amethyst]

Why do I have flashbacks to junior high girls leaving a bottle of cheap deodorant on the desk of a girl they deemed to have BO?

It wouldn't be the same insult potential, but the neighbor would certainly wonder and probably ask around. Given NateW is afraid of his non-development neighbors - possibly with good reason - I wouldn't tempt their egos in that way.

Given that this is affecting you so greatly, and you have a suspicion that the homeowner may be burning something nasty, and you don’t want to engage him directly, what about an anonymous delivery of some clean, dry, split hardwood? Shouldn’t cost too much and chances are real good that he’d use it. This might get you through this winter until you can move.

 

[FDC319]

We back up to Route 7, near I 81. The trucks are stopping at a light on Route 7 and using their Jacobs Brakes. I think the truckers like the noise. I've seen them used when the trucks are unloaded.

While the noise is cool. Think I'm kidding, check out some youtube videos of truck restorations.

In reality it is a good way to bleed off speed without the issues of rowing through gears, cutting a ton of speed prior to the next uphill, burning excess fuel, or using the regular brakes. 81 with its hills and curves are prime areas for this.

Some examples in here:

 

[FDC319]

Wood heat is plenty normal in the winter. It has been well below freezing for the past week or so and it is still between 67 and 72 when I wake up in the morning-all wood heat. Agreed with the burning of green wood comments, but sometimes you don't have enough time or money to sock away multiple year's worth of wood. I hate burning green wood as it is very insufficient, but sometimes it is necessary. A good way to mitigate the issues is to burn both seasoned and green(a log of each) at the same time after getting it hot with seasoned.

All I can hope for is a chimney fire that burns the place down. Don't want the family hurt, just the problem solved.

In this thread, we have the city family which moved to the country and is seeking government involvement to change someone who was there before them. Even to the point of having government officials harass the family. A people wonder why many rural folks don't like new people.

Since your neighbors aren't bothered, all I can do is further recommend that you move back to where you came from. Or, a far southern town which doesn't need heat.

Hopefully your moving truck with all your possessions doesn't burn up along the way. I don't do the whole karma thing, but with your comment above, I would probably be the first one laughing if your movers burned your stuff down and you got into a car wreck on the way to your next destination.

 

[NateW]

Given that this is affecting you so greatly, and you have a suspicion that the homeowner may be burning something nasty, and you don’t want to engage him directly, what about an anonymous delivery of some clean, dry, split hardwood? Shouldn’t cost too much and chances are real good that he’d use it. This might get you through this winter until you can move.

Excellent idea. My plan would be to call the seller, tell him I have a neighbor wood stove smoke problem and would like to anonymously have a delivery made of seasoned split oak, 1 chord. I'd prepay and ask the delivery person to knock on the homeowner's door and get permission to leave his free wood and give him a note from me (omitting my name). Note would simply say "I'm a homeowner located near you and the wood you are burning is creating large amounts of acrid smoke that is affecting me and the use of my property. Please use this good quality firewood, free of charge, and all that I ask in return is that you burn it in a manner that limits smoke as much as practical, but meets your heating needs. Hopefully, this is a win/win for both of us, thanks," or similar.

I have heard that it takes several cords of wood per heating season to heat a home with wood. He has an old and probably leaky, poorly insulated home. This is his sole heating source, per the fire marshall. Stove is in the basement, located where the oil furnace was and using it's flue. Am I setting myself up for a firewood delivery every few weeks to solve this problem? Or what if or only improves slightly? DW now says she is not comfortable doing this.

I will say since sealing off our direct vent gas fireplace last night using plastic, I do not smell smoke inside. That was the source of the air leak. The plastic moves in and out with the changes in air pressure asmthe wind hits the house. It was a sizeable air leak. We have a 14 mph west wind, directly from his place and it smells quite smoky outside. The Honeywell electronic whole house electrostatic air cleaner/filter arrives tomorrow. Perhaps these two improvements will get is through the winter.

 

[Jerry1]

I guess I’d see how the new filter works in combination with your covering the air leak from the fireplace.

 

[Aerides]

Honestly if you want to be able to sell with a clean conscience, do nothing else to engage with these homeowners. Including anonymous gifts. Those are easily traced, especially if the homeowner insists to find out from the supplier.

Your job at this point is to get out without further embroiling yourself and removing plausible deniability.

If I bought a clean air house this summer, which then stunk of smoke next winter, and after digging around found the prior owner had gone to all these lengths to remedy it (talking to everyone who would listen) and still sold without mentioning it....I'd find a way to sue.

 

[finnski1]

Honestly if you want to be able to sell with a clean conscience, do nothing else to engage with these homeowners. Including anonymous gifts. Those are easily traced, especially if the homeowner insists to find out from the supplier.

Your job at this point is to get out without further embroiling yourself and removing plausible deniability.

If I bought a clean air house this summer, which then stunk of smoke next winter, and after digging around found the prior owner had gone to all these lengths to remedy it (talking to everyone who would listen) and still sold without mentioning it....I'd find a way to sue.

I agree. Don't make this into a full time project and worry either.
If you found some relief with the fireplace sealing then give that a little time and see how you two are feeling. It seems certain you will sell in the spring anyway. Get the air filter installed and try to enjoy the winter as much as possible.
I realize that it is easy for me to say but I truly hope you find some relief from all the angst.

 

[ivinsfan]

Excellent idea. My plan would be to call the seller, tell him I have a neighbor wood stove smoke problem and would like to anonymously have a delivery made of seasoned split oak, 1 chord. I'd prepay and ask the delivery person to knock on the homeowner's door and get permission to leave his free wood and give him a note from me (omitting my name). Note would simply say "I'm a homeowner located near you and the wood you are burning is creating large amounts of acrid smoke that is affecting me and the use of my property. Please use this good quality firewood, free of charge, and all that I ask in return is that you burn it in a manner that limits smoke as much as practical, but meets your heating needs. Hopefully, this is a win/win for both of us, thanks," or similar.

I have heard that it takes several cords of wood per heating season to heat a home with wood. He has an old and probably leaky, poorly insulated home. This is his sole heating source, per the fire marshall. Stove is in the basement, located where the oil furnace was and using it's flue. Am I setting myself up for a firewood delivery every few weeks to solve this problem? Or what if or only improves slightly? DW now says she is not comfortable doing this.

I will say since sealing off our direct vent gas fireplace last night using plastic, I do not smell smoke inside. That was the source of the air leak. The plastic moves in and out with the changes in air pressure asmthe wind hits the house. It was a sizeable air leak. We have a 14 mph west wind, directly from his place and it smells quite smoky outside. The Honeywell electronic whole house electrostatic air cleaner/filter arrives tomorrow. Perhaps these two improvements will get is through the winter.

Don't do this,,nothing good can come of it..

 

[NateW]

Agree...mostly. Not a smoke expert but I have noticed that the smoke produced by green/wet wood is different. The "wet" smoke is more like steam to me. It tends to float closer to the ground and seems to linger....like in the pics the OP posted. Smoke from dry hardwoods seems to dissipate faster. Again...not an expert but this is what I have observed using a firepit and from neighbors that I know are burning wet/green wood.

I agree that something is not right at all with what he's burning. I have never before smelled such an disagreeable, acrid, pungent, burning, offensive smoke like this. Over the summer I was cleaning our screened in porch and I noticed everything smelled slightly offensive, and as I wiped the nylon screen with a damp cloth, black-green resiny soot abundantly coated the cloth. The stench was unique. I noticed this was the same acrid low-level smell through out our house I was never able to identify or eliminate. I thought the smell was from old fish pate cat food (we have 2 cats). I never gave it much more thought until 2 weeks ago when the wood smoke became so bad I was able to identify the source. I now realize that this smoke has impregnated everything in the house and is the cause of these smells. Our garage stinks. I thought it was rotting cat food in the garbage. Nope, it's acrid wood smoke residue that has coated everything.

We went out for a while this morning and the same stench was overpowering all around our house and probably the neighbors on each side of us. It burned my throat and made my eyes sting. After we exit our neighborhood, the short road we take to the main road goes right past the woodburner's house. Copious smoke from the chimney was blowing directly at our house dead center on its long side.

While we were out I noticed I was begining to clear out of my throat and lungs some the smoke I breathed over the past several days. Upon returning home, the very noticable ever present sour smell that now envelopes our house was present outside and in. After being inside a few minutes, I now taste it, like I have several times before. We can't even air out the house. We've been barraged by the smoke non-stop about 80% of the time beginning sometime in October. This is going to be a very long winter.

When the heating season began this fall, DW began having severe daily chronic headaches. She saw a couple doctors about it and had a sleep apnea test that was inconclusive. Doctors could not determine the cause. She noticed headaches were much better and sometimes gone while away from home.

I also began smelling a dusty acrid smell from our heat vents when the furnace was on (I run the blower continuously to help control the excessive dust we have). I began thinking the heat exchanger may be cracked and that possibly DW's headaches were from low levels of carbon monoxide.

I bought a professional grade (Fieldpiece SCM4) trace carbon monoxide detector, detects down to 1 ppm. There is zero CO in our house. I also checked the furnace burner flames as the blower motor comes on and there is no change in flame pattern, so it appears the heat exchanger is not cracked. I pulled the furnace blower which gave me visual access to the secondary heat exchanger. The blower, it's housing, supply ducts, and heat exchanger alll have this super fine light brown dust coating. The dust particles are small enough to pass through the MERV 11 filter I installed. No air bypasses the filter; it fits tight in it's frame. The dust buildup has to be from continuous fan operation and the acrid dusty smell I still notice when the furnace is burning gas is the dust that keeps being deposited on the heat exchanger when the burners are not firing. This dust must contain some of the smoke particles because it's the same acrid smell as it burns off each time the burners light.

The smoke that gets in the house has to be the source of DW's headaches. I now am beginning to feel a little ill sometimes and I think it may be because of breathing low levels of smoke. It's inside because it envelops our house most of the time. No matter how well the house is sealed, you must have some air exchange in order to breath, cook (gas stove) and eliminate indoor pollutants.

Before I realized all of this, I thought the smells were internally generated, so what did I do? I cracked open a few windows to get more air, but in reality, I made the problem worse. Because the odor does not subside after cracking the windows, I opened them a little more and left them open longer.

Yes, this is very serious problem, and one that can only be solved by moving. I'm beginning to fear for our health. As I type this, I can taste the smoke in my mouth.

I just hope the Honeywell electronic air cleaner aleviates some of our symptoms and smells.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

I will say since sealing off our direct vent gas fireplace last night using plastic, I do not smell smoke inside. That was the source of the air leak. The plastic moves in and out with the changes in air pressure asmthe wind hits the house. It was a sizeable air leak. We have a 14 mph west wind, directly from his place and it smells quite smoky outside. The Honeywell electronic whole house electrostatic air cleaner/filter arrives tomorrow. Perhaps these two improvements will get is through the winter.

I may have missed it, but how old is your house? Is it by any chance still covered under the builder's warranty? If it is, you MIGHT be able to seek recourse through that avenue. Granted, the odds are [-]pretty[/-] very slim, but my DW has been successful in getting some builders to fix stuff they might ordinarily not cover (she was an R/E agent at the time and sold a good number of said builder's homes, so there was an incentive for them to go the extra mile). It couldn't hurt to try!

If I bought a clean air house this summer, which then stunk of smoke next winter, and after digging around found the prior owner had gone to all these lengths to remedy it (talking to everyone who would listen) and still sold without mentioning it...I'd find a way to sue.

And you would probably not be successful since the proof would probably be hard to conjure up especially if the problem was "remedied"

 

[W2R]

Yes, this is very serious problem, and one that can only be solved by moving. I'm beginning to fear for our health. As I type this, I can taste the smoke in my mouth.

Good. Recognizing this is the first step in solving this problem forever. You just can't live like this!

The next step is to stop fretting about your neighbors and instead to start an intensive search for a smoke-free place to move to. I hope to read posts about various other homes you are considering.

 

[statsman]

This is an extremely rough story to read. It's tough when you have little to no control over your environment inside of your house. Our old house had a bit of a problem like yours, but nowhere near as extreme. It was a residential house, in the heart of Silicon Valley, with restricted fire burn days in California, and yet we could smell the burning of unseasoned wood seep into our house. We suspect someone (or a few someones) was burning construction wood among others. Eventually, it stopped as I think the people in question moved out of the area (might have been renters).

As bad as that was, nothing will ever top the horror of having skunks burrow their way into the crawlspace under our house and have the female(s) spray there to start the mating process. It was brutal, and it took two Winters to figure out all of the locations they utilized to get under the house and block those up.

A few years later, we had the entire ductwork in the crawlspace replaced as the smells had permeated it. A few years later the skunk smells from the crawlspace had finally disappeared.

It was something we noted in the disclosure when selling our house. We were able to say it had been 19 years since the last time a skunk got under the house (as far as we knew), and the inspectors (some paid for by the buyers) could check around for any evidence of recent skunk traffic. There was none.

 

[Bob_Walter]

Thanks tb001 yes a house hunting thread would be great. I identify with your freeway comment.

I'm just glad that I am able to share this not so common issue so others are aware of it. I hope I save someone on this list from a bunch of grief.

Hi Nate,
Actually I think things like this occur more often then you think, whether it's a smoke, noise, lights, dog barking, etc with a neighbor. As I said in one of my previous post, we had a neighbor blasting music and when my wife asked them to turn it down, they cranked it up. Then they started playing music 2AM. This went on for months. Then to other dilemma is what do you do about it? Hope it fizzles, call the cops, go over there with a baseball bat.

Another house we lived at, the neighbors decided to hot tub and drink at 2AM, which of course was 10 feet from our bedroom windows. Again, this went on almost every night for months. I did speak to them, they were nice, but no resolution. Fortunately, we were renting and about to move anyways.

Sorry to read about your issue, hopefully if this doesn't get resolved you'll find peace in your next place. Daily worry/anxiety about these issues is bad for your health.

 

[Keim]

Don't do this,,nothing good can come of it..

Completely agree. Anonymity will backfire.

Also agree: Given you are currently convinced you need to move, what do you stand to lose by politely talking to the neighbor? As part you could suggest trying different wood-at your cost initially.

I would've suggested doing that BEFORE the inspector was called. Calling the inspector may have caused some hard feelings.

It probably can't be arranged. But, the discussion would be most effective at your house. In the smoke.

 

[tb001]

Completely agree. Anonymity will backfire.

Also agree: Given you are currently convinced you need to move, what do you stand to lose by politely talking to the neighbor? As part you could suggest trying different wood-at your cost initially.

I would've suggested doing that BEFORE the inspector was called. Calling the inspector may have caused some hard feelings.

It probably can't be arranged. But, the discussion would be most effective at your house. In the smoke.

I agree. You really have nothing to lose at this point by talking with them. Most people are reasonable, though the fire Marshall visit might have started things off on the wrong foot. Still, if you present it as you and your wife being allergic and having a hard time with the smoke and offer to help with anything that might fix the situation, that doesn’t sound crazy. If you’re moving anyway, it’s worth a try.

 

[statsman]

I agree. You really have nothing to lose at this point by talking with them. Most people are reasonable, though the fire Marshall visit might have started things off on the wrong foot. Still, if you present it as you and your wife being allergic and having a hard time with the smoke and offer to help with anything that might fix the situation, that doesn’t sound crazy. If you’re moving anyway, it’s worth a try.

Or, as FDC319 stated, city folks are a pain in the rear as far as some rural folks are concerned. If that's the case here for the neighbors, particularly with the fire Marshall visit, I would just move and avoid interacting with them at all.

 

[jollystomper]

Excellent idea. My plan would be to call the seller, tell him I have a neighbor wood stove smoke problem and would like to anonymously have a delivery made of seasoned split oak, 1 chord. I'd prepay and ask the delivery person to knock on the homeowner's door and get permission to leave his free wood and give him a note from me (omitting my name). Note would simply say "I'm a homeowner located near you and the wood you are burning is creating large amounts of acrid smoke that is affecting me and the use of my property. Please use this good quality firewood, free of charge, and all that I ask in return is that you burn it in a manner that limits smoke as much as practical, but meets your heating needs. Hopefully, this is a win/win for both of us, thanks," or similar.

This strikes me as extremely condescending. I agree with those who say it is more likely to backfire. It comes across as "change your lifestyle to make mine better". Sometimes people do not want to be given "free" things in this manner. Doing it anonymously, in truth, makes it seem more like a threat than a gift.

If you want to convince or influence the neighbor, the only possible solution is a long term one. Try to be a friendly neighbor first, without ever mentioning this issue. Who knows? You might find out that they are challenged in terms of paying for good wood... in which case you can gift them some, with you name, without bringing up this issue.

I see a lot of judgements and assumptions based on what is seen without someone who really knows the people. Perhaps I am sensitive to that as someone who has been subject to similar judgement by folks making assumptions from my looks or what they perceived to be my ethnic background.

 

[Bob_Walter]

The problem is the fire marshal was already over there.

If that wasn't the case, having an ice breaker is the key and makes it much easier, such as going over there knock and say "Hi neighbor, how are you? I think you burn to heat, I've got a couple chords of firewood you can have. It was given to me and I have no use for it...blah blah blah".

If their reaction is negative over free firewood, then it's downhill from there, you might as well consider moving.

If they gladly accept, then you have something to build on and you can work on them. Perhaps the next thing would be delivery. You either go buy it and pick it up and deliver it and even help stack it, while engaging in casual conversation and see where that leads to.

 

[ls99]

Heh, this smokescreen sure gets a lot of mileage.

 

[NateW]

I agree with the poster that you provide the neighbor properly seasoned wood (starting about a week before you list your house) IN EXCHANGE for what they are using at the moment. You can stack it on your property and tell them that they can have it back when your house sells.

Agree with increasing the efficiency of your air filter system. Short term those stand-alone filter units are great but I would remove them when selling the house.

Thanks for your comments Brat. We plan to sell late summer, before he begins using the stove. That way the leaves will still be on the trees and the highway out back won't be so apparent as well.

Interestingly, when DW and I saw this house for the first time, it smelled really good inside. As in a not-to-powerful, very nice smelling natural perfume was purposely sprayed in the air. I knew that was a marketing ploy, but discounted its significance. The owner is a real estate agent, but not the one we used.

 

[NateW]

And I think the key here is do not even think of selling By Owner. Wait till Spring, get an agent, and let them price it to sell fast. Do not be home for any showings, do not attend the closing - make this 100% a business transaction, with no opportunity to even be asked things that might slip.

Delete the FB posts now, speak to no other neighbors about it.

Excellent advice Aerides. What is interesting, the previous owner, who just by chance is a real estate agent, did as you suggest in the bolded text. Last week I searched the neighborhood FB group on relevant terms that should have picked up "wood smoke" posts and I found none. I also looked at all posts the previous owner made and I saw no evidence this was an issue with her (I think if she deleted such posts, FB notes the post was removed, but all comments remain. I did not see any posts by her that were removed).

Also, last winter, the first winter we were in the house, the wood smoke was only an annoyance. But this fall/winter something is vastly different. (We were/are home about the same amount of time both years). For one thing, this fall we had multiple inversion layer days with AQI numbers in the 50-60 range with 0 wind and the smoke just stagnated, and last fall and winter it was very windy all the time with good air quality numbers and I can't call a single inversion layer day. The annoyances last fall and winter were in the evening. This year the wood stove burns 24/7 and the weather alternated between dead still or up to 15 mph. Breezes so far have been from the WNW, which is the exact direction his house is located. It has been relentless.