Why are Some (Most?) Dentists Con Artists?

[5Miler]

I'm in the early stages of having my first implant done as a result of an issue discovered via Xray on my last cleaning. I have been going to the same dentist for 25 years with no significant dental procedures other than fillings for almost 20 years. I do have more than my share of crowns from before that though. Anyway, she discovered a cavity below a crown I had received 21 years ago. She told me that she wasn't sure what we could do as the tooth had already received a root canal, crown lengthening and crown. When I went back the next week to have the work done, it wasn't good. There just wasn't much tooth left and since I had already had a crown lengthening before, a second one could endanger the two teeth on either side if too much gum tissue was removed.

She told me my options were either pull it and move on, get a bridge or get an implant. Her advice was an implant although she referred that work out to a specialist. So here I am two weeks post surgery from the extraction and bone graft. I do have dental insurance via the Veteran's Administration for which I pay each month which helps somewhat. Interesting that the surgeon's office told me they are actually charging me less than the cost off the implant and other services because of the Met Life coverage I have. The implant is still not cheap but worth every penny of it to me.

Interesting that when I first was offered the Dental Insurance through the VA, I had the choice of Delta Dental or Met Life under a new pilot program the VA had started. Since I had known the receptionist/billing person at my dentist for so long I asked her opinion of the two. She explained it to me very simply. She said that Delta Dental was good for the dentist and Met Life was good for me. I have Met Life.

 

[JoeWras]

I'm in the early stages of having my first implant done as a result of an issue discovered via Xray on my last cleaning. I have been going to the same dentist for 25 years with no significant dental procedures other than fillings for almost 20 years. I do have more than my share of crowns from before that though. Anyway, she discovered a cavity below a crown I had received 21 years ago. She told me that she wasn't sure what we could do as the tooth had already received a root canal, crown lengthening and crown. When I went back the next week to have the work done, it wasn't good. There just wasn't much tooth left and since I had already had a crown lengthening before, a second one could endanger the two teeth on either side if too much gum tissue was removed.

She told me my options were either pull it and move on, get a bridge or get an implant. Her advice was an implant although she referred that work out to a specialist. So here I am two weeks post surgery from the extraction and bone graft. I do have dental insurance via the Veteran's Administration for which I pay each month which helps somewhat. Interesting that the surgeon's office told me they are actually charging me less than the cost off the implant and other services because of the Met Life coverage I have. The implant is still not cheap but worth every penny of it to me.

Interesting that when I first was offered the Dental Insurance through the VA, I had the choice of Delta Dental or Met Life under a new pilot program the VA had started. Since I had known the receptionist/billing person at my dentist for so long I asked her opinion of the two. She explained it to me very simply. She said that Delta Dental was good for the dentist and Met Life was good for me. I have Met Life.

DW had Delta Dental and I had Met Life. I agree with the billing person.

 

[Rianne]

Agreed. Super unprofessional. What's worse is that we "had" a very good, friendly relationship for 8+ years. Ditto, wife and Dentist lady for the same amount of time. That makes it even MORE insulting.

Lesson learned..people are only your "friends" until a problem arises. Then, they'll kick you to the curb pronto if it's in their own selfish interest.

Why would a dentist/doctor/business give up a long-term relationship over $740? Unprofessional and kind of stupid IMO. A reasonable person would have negotiated and explained the extra charge. I'd split the difference and keep a loyal patient or customer. Makes no sense.

 

[CRLLS]

I too, am in the middle of an implant procedure. I had the option of a root canal and crown or implant. The dentist gave me referrals for both. I chose root canal. The endodontist started his procedure when he found the root was cracked. He said the crown would not last and stopped. Then went to the oral surgeon for the tooth removal, bone graft and implant. Will have my dentist install the crown. This will be a full 1 year process due to the normal time for bone growth and delays in scheduling the various "experts". I have no dental plan. Everything will be out of pocket. Between the various people/places involved and added sidestep on the root canal, I expect I will be >$5K when complete. I take some solace that I have ~50 years' worth of savings, not ever having a dental plan.

 

[Koolau]

My old dentist was going through hard times (divorce?).
First sign of trouble was when he sold his boat. (A expensive ocean capable fishing boat).
Then I needed a crown.
Then I needed another crown, at this point I got a second opinion from my parents dentist, no cavity and no crown needed.
I’m still using their dentist 900 miles away.

Gotcha beat! My principal dentist is 5000 miles away! I do have a local dentist which is very capable and fair. It just that my "old" dentist "back home" has much better technology and I'm more comfortable with his work since I've gone to him for 40 years.

 

[stevelb]

Went to a new dentist today. Had not seen a dentist for 5-6 years. Took a ton of x rays and did a measurement of pockets (?) and a cleaning. Told me that I have no cavities. Told me that I have gum disease and need "Perio Scaling & Root Planing" at a cost of $1452. After that I would need cleanings every 3 months. I do not experience any pain in my mouth, no problems with cold or hot, and no bleeding of the gums. I am 76 years old. What do you think should be my next step? Second opinion? Thinking about waiting 6 months and then going to another dentist cold turkey and see what he/she says.

 

[pb4uski]

You must have my new dentist. I think your next step should be to get a second opinion.

I have had regular dentist visits at roughly 6 month intervals for over 20 years. Usually two cleanings a year, one exam and periodic x-rays and a lecture that I need to floss more. I have never had any pain and never had a cavity. They may have replaced one old filling or perhaps they just told me that at some point one of my old fillings would need to be replaced, I don't remember. The only tooth "issue" that I have had was a chipped tooth that they crowned a few years ago, but even then there was not any pain.

When we moved to Florida I found a new dentist down here and had a couple visits and the same thing, all is fine and they did cleanings and an exam.

That dentist gets bought out by an outfit called Sage Dental. All of a sudden, DW, myself and a good friend who have been in similar situations of regular dental visits and just cleanings and exams are now being told that we have periodontal disease because we have a couple 5mm pockets and we need the perio scaling. According to them it would normally cost $4,416 but because I bought their 12-month plan of two cleanings and an exam for $158, I can get that work done for the bargain price of $1,569, or "Monthly as low as $184"! And then $300 cleaning every 3-4 months.

What a bargain! What a crock!

I told them that I would need to get a second opinion before spending that kind of money given that my teeth are not bothering me at all.

I personally think it is a scam. Likely the new owners paid a lot for the practice and are upselling to generate revenue to compensate for having operpaid for the practice. This practice has numerous bad reviews with similar stories on google. The reality is that less than a pound of pressure on the probe can cause the probe to be 5mm vs 4mm.

At this point, my plan is to try to find an old school dentist and carry on.

 

[SunnyOne]

After doing the dental dance for over a year, I am traveling to Lake Chapala, MX in late winter. I'll be staying a couple months for R&R and for dental work. I have been in touch with a dentist there who comes highly recommended by many local retirees. Fingers crossed.
Her quotes are running about 25% of what my US dentist charges, or in other words, a 75% discount.
Normally, price would not be a major factor - quality is most important of course, but this discount cannot be denied.
Peace and as I said, fingers crossed.
PS/ as far as perio, I follow the pennies per use protocol recommended by Dr. Jorgen Slots of USC. It does not get much press because it's not profitable for providers lol....but it has been highly effective for me - and it's only an occasional home treatment.

 

[MichaelB]

Went to a new dentist today. Had not seen a dentist for 5-6 years. Took a ton of x rays and did a measurement of pockets (?) and a cleaning. Told me that I have no cavities. Told me that I have gum disease and need "Perio Scaling & Root Planing" at a cost of $1452. After that I would need cleanings every 3 months. I do not experience any pain in my mouth, no problems with cold or hot, and no bleeding of the gums. I am 76 years old. What do you think should be my next step? Second opinion? Thinking about waiting 6 months and then going to another dentist cold turkey and see what he/she says.

Sounds like the last dentist I went to see in our Florida location. The only thing I would add is it was like a Looney Tunes cartoon where I could see the $$ in their eyes.

Post-pandemic, I told this to our long time dentist, who lives in another location. She said the deep root planing was “a crock”, there was absolutely no need at all.

 

[Time2]

My long time dentist retired and his practice was taken over by a younger dentist. He got all new equipment and his prices increased 30%. Not long after that my daughter was in her final year of dental school doing clinic, we let hr practice on us. Now she's in practice 400 miles away, so I went back to the previous dentist. I have a feeling he has lost many patients, they tried to get me to do 4 month appointments, encouraged me to get a crown on one tooth that must not be to bad, because he first mentioned it 3 yrs ago. Also the office is now only open 4 days a week. A simple cleaning and short check by the dentist was $149. Also, he did the usual check of head and neck lymph nodes and missed the fact that I have swollen lymph nodes. (something else I'm dealing with.)
Now, I'm thinking of finding an older dentist that hasn't raised their prices.

 

[fh2000]

we need the perio scaling. According to them it would normally cost $4,416 but because I bought their 12-month plan of two cleanings and an exam for $158, I can get that work done for the bargain price of $1,569, or "Monthly as low as $184"! And then $300 cleaning every 3-4 months.

I had my full month Periodontal Scaling done almost 20 years ago. It was a horrendous experience. The periodontist cut open a quarter of the gum at a time to scale, then sew them up. This took a while for the whole month. I had dental insurance and I do not remember the out of pocket cost to me.

Recently a friend went for the same procedure, except his dentist is now using laser probe. No need to cut open the gum. Two sittings in 2 days. All done for $7300!

 

[Rianne]

I've found over 25 years of DH working in a megacorp, dentists see you have gold-standard dental insurance. Thus, I have 11 crowns. I believed the BS crooked dentists have shoveled. I'm embarrassed to say that, but can't look back or change anything. All I can say is to ask a lot of questions and get multiple opinions.

 

[saydiver]

Agreed. Super unprofessional. What's worse is that we "had" a very good, friendly relationship for 8+ years. Ditto, wife and Dentist lady for the same amount of time. That makes it even MORE insulting.

Lesson learned..people are only your "friends" until a problem arises. Then, they'll kick you to the curb pronto if it's in their own selfish interest.

The problem was your lack of understanding. The lesson learned should be you learning there are three parts to an implant crown; the implant, the abutment and the crown and all three each have a cost. You also need to learn what brand of implant(s) you have, because not every dentist has the tools to deal with all the different brands of implants/abutments should a problem arise in the future.

 

[Koolau]

Went to a new dentist today. Had not seen a dentist for 5-6 years. Took a ton of x rays and did a measurement of pockets (?) and a cleaning. Told me that I have no cavities. Told me that I have gum disease and need "Perio Scaling & Root Planing" at a cost of $1452. After that I would need cleanings every 3 months. I do not experience any pain in my mouth, no problems with cold or hot, and no bleeding of the gums. I am 76 years old. What do you think should be my next step? Second opinion? Thinking about waiting 6 months and then going to another dentist cold turkey and see what he/she says.

No idea if your dentist is steering you right or not. Having said that, if you divide $1452 by 5 or 6 years, you are doing a lot better than I am with yearly dental costs. That is outstanding. Any year I don't spend a $grand at the dentist is cause for celebration. Routine plus one crown replacement is easily more than $1452.

I guess the usual approach of asking friends and neighbors about their dentists might be a good idea in choosing someone for a second opinion. At some point, dentists are a bit like mechanics. You need 'em and you just about have to trust them since you are unlikely able to second guess them. Good luck.

 

[Car-Guy]

The dentist I had about 10 years ago was a "car nut" like me and he always had a new high end sports car in the parking lot. He and I would talk about cars whenever I was there, although he did the vast majority of the talking. No doubt I helped pay for his cars. He'd often "suggest" that I needed this or that done but I usually opt'd for just what was bothering me at the time.

 

[Koolau]

The dentist I had about 10 years ago was a "car nut" like me and he always had a new high end sports car in the parking lot. He and I would talk about cars whenever I was there, although he did the vast majority of the talking. No doubt I helped pay for his cars. He'd often "suggest" that I needed this or that done but I usually opt'd for just what was bothering me at the time.

Our dentist's wife was in the same sorority as DW. We occasionally socialized with a group of her "sisters" and sometimes at our dentist's house. He had an indoor pool! I often wondered how much I helped build his house and pool. We are actually still friends with them (very hands-off) but we talk about the "old days" whenever I go for "service."

 

[ncbill]

My long time dentist retired and his practice was taken over by a younger dentist. He got all new equipment and his prices increased 30%. Not long after that my daughter was in her final year of dental school doing clinic, we let hr practice on us. Now she's in practice 400 miles away, so I went back to the previous dentist. I have a feeling he has lost many patients, they tried to get me to do 4 month appointments, encouraged me to get a crown on one tooth that must not be to bad, because he first mentioned it 3 yrs ago. Also the office is now only open 4 days a week. A simple cleaning and short check by the dentist was $149. Also, he did the usual check of head and neck lymph nodes and missed the fact that I have swollen lymph nodes. (something else I'm dealing with.)
Now, I'm thinking of finding an older dentist that hasn't raised their prices.

Yep, when my dentist retired & sold his practice the new young guy wanted me to get a crown on a premolar.

EDIT: It just so happened that the new practice had a crown-milling machine right there in the office.

I switched to an older, more conservative dentist & delayed the crown on that tooth for several years.

Still, when you need work, you've gotta pay.

I was fortunate that a crown over another (live) tooth lasted 25+ years.

But when an abscess developed the root canal plus dentist work including a replacement gold crown (back molar) cost me ~$2,000 in HSA money since I exceeded my dental plan's annual coverage limit.

Still, I was happy to avoid an implant & hopefully will die with the new crown.

 

[mn54]

Went to a new dentist today. Had not seen a dentist for 5-6 years. Took a ton of x rays and did a measurement of pockets (?) and a cleaning. Told me that I have no cavities. Told me that I have gum disease and need "Perio Scaling & Root Planing" at a cost of $1452. After that I would need cleanings every 3 months. I do not experience any pain in my mouth, no problems with cold or hot, and no bleeding of the gums. I am 76 years old. What do you think should be my next step? Second opinion? Thinking about waiting 6 months and then going to another dentist cold turkey and see what he/she says.

if you don't trust this dentist then nothing wrong in getting a second opinion. going for 5-6 years without seeing a dentist, i am not surprised that you would have quite a bit of calculus( tarter) below the gumline causing some degree of gum disease. you don't have to have any pain or thermal sensitivity to have gum disease although i would expect that there would be some bleeding of the inflamed gum tissue when you brush. i would not wait for 6 months. ir you do have gum disease it will only get worse and you could possibly end up losing teeth from it. if you have access to a dental school or hygiene school that would be a good option. they have no financial incentive not to tell you the truth and the treatment will be significantly less expensive ( but will take more time).

 

[Qs Laptop]

Went to a new dentist today. Had not seen a dentist for 5-6 years. Took a ton of x rays and did a measurement of pockets (?) and a cleaning. Told me that I have no cavities. Told me that I have gum disease and need "Perio Scaling & Root Planing" at a cost of $1452. After that I would need cleanings every 3 months. I do not experience any pain in my mouth, no problems with cold or hot, and no bleeding of the gums. I am 76 years old. What do you think should be my next step? Second opinion? Thinking about waiting 6 months and then going to another dentist cold turkey and see what he/she says.

This sounds like the script from the Dentist Con Artist Playbook.

Definitely get a second opinion. Do not explain why you are going to this new dentist, or you could say, "for a second opinion." If this dentist asks specifics about the second opinion, just smile and say, "I'd rather not say as that might bias your examination."

By the way, what were some of your deep pocket depths?

 

[athena53]

This sounds like the script from the Dentist Con Artist Playbook.

Definitely get a second opinion. Do not explain why you are going to this new dentist, or you could say, "for a second opinion." If this dentist asks specifics about the second opinion, just smile and say, "I'd rather not say as that might bias your examination."

By the way, what were some of your deep pocket depths?

I agree on the scaling/planing recommendation- definitely get a second opinion. Measuring pocket depths, though, is something my dentist (whom I trust) does on every visit. I go for cleanings every 3 months but that's because I have a bunch of implants. They mostly look for changes. They were a bit alarmed when I came back right after a 3-week trip in E. Europe. I'd brought my Sonicare toothbrush but left the WaterPik at home. It made a difference. Things have improved since.

 

[pb4uski]

The thing is there that the difference between 4mm and 5mm is so slight that it would take very slight additional pressure on the probe to make a 4mm pocket a 5mm pocket and then use that info to upsell some expensive solution that is in the best interest of the person doing the probing.

 

[OldShooter]

I've mentioned before that I now use the local university dental school for care. Coincidentally, they have recommended that I get scaling and root planing done on my four rearmost teeth. As I dimly understand the issue, it is that the gum is separated from the tooth to a degree that will (untreated) lead to bone loss and loosening of the tooth, then a need for implants. The planing procedure smooths the tooth and encourages the gum tissue to reattach.

The professor and the student dentist have no economic interest in making this recommendation, so I trust it and will begin the sequence after the first of the year. They apologized about the cost; apparently it used to be $80/tooth but has now been raised to $214. I have no idea what private dentists charge in our market but the clinic has typically been half or less on other procedures.

For @stevelb, I"d concur with others about getting that second opinion. If the procedure is needed, it is probably important to get it done sooner rather than later. Again if the procedure is needed, waiting 6 months will only have negative effects.

 

[athena53]

The thing is there that the difference between 4mm and 5mm is so slight that it would take very slight additional pressure on the probe to make a 4mm pocket a 5mm pocket and then use that info to upsell some expensive solution that is in the best interest of the person doing the probing.

And that's something I hadn't realized but it makes perfect sense once you point it out- it could even vary from hygienist to hygienist on the same day.

 

[mebden]

All I can say I moved for a new state for a job and had to get a different dentist, so I went to a family type clinic that houses multiple dentists, so I took the 1st 1 available and she was a female dentist. I had the usual x-rays and cleaning, but I also had cracked a crown, so I needed a replacement all that had to be done is take a new mold and clean up the existing tooth and it cost just as much as a crown right around $1200 bucks and I asked why I was told either take it or leave it as I was told we have many new customers. So i just bit the bullet had it done and by the way I had work dental insurance and before they would do any work I had to pay the whole cost up front which I thought was ridiculous but needed the work done, they then over charged my insurance and told me we will refund anything your insurance would not pay and they ended up owing me back almost $900 and it took almost 4 months to get my money back so guess what I did when I got this all settled never again I said they used my money for 6 months that was the end of my business and they could of cared less.

 

[EastWest Gal]

I’ve never had issues with a dentist. Call me lucky. I called my dentist 10 years ago on a Friday night when I seriously cracked a tooth. Got a call back right away. We met on Saturday morning and he fitted me for a crown. No assistants, no ancillary staff. Him in his jeans, me in mine. Maybe $1000. Insurance covered some of it. The care I received was priceless.

None of us have had fillings for years and years, or major work ever. No root canals. DH has gum issues and gets more frequent cleanings. DS is nearly 31. He has never had a cavity, nothing except his every 6 month cleanings. He started with this dentist when he was seven.

In my last check up the dentist, hygienist, and I had a lively discussion about marketing of toothpastes, and the active ingredients. We also discussed their experience with tooth fractures, and that many are crack lines, like porcelain, which never cause problems. His attitude is: if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. We have an honest dentist. Yay!