Why are Some (Most?) Dentists Con Artists?

[COcheesehead]

You should get your teeth, checked and overhauled if needed in PV. I hear their care is excellent and very affordable.

PV = ?

Pedro’s Van.

 

[Music Lover]

You aren’t paying for the hours they spend today, you’re paying for the hours it took to get there.

That applies to a virtually all professions.

 

[Aerides]

But dentists are one of the very few professions that can get away with charging $2000 for 2 or 3 hours of work.

IME, that kind of price is associated with dental surgery, implants, crowns, and other more extensive work.

The rest of their hours are spent on consultations and exams, or initial visits with problems to lay out a plan of things to correct. Those hours typically run $100-$200 per visit, for those with no discount/insurance.

The only time I've paid over $2k for the dentist is for an implant. That came as the result of initial review/xrays, then a follow up with a dental surgeon to confirm, then another appointment for the surgeon to perform the extraction and build up, anesthesia, with another follow up to make sure all was healing well....then another to install the actual implant. $2500 ish for 5 visits, multiple hours, most with tech assistants, (also well trained) and an actual implant/crown made - a lot more than 2-3 hours work.

 

[athena53]

You aren’t paying for the hours they spend today, you’re paying for the hours it took to get there.

And don't forget the cost of equipment. My oral surgeon has a 3D panoramic X-ray machine that will transmit the image to a giant video screen and rotate it so he can see what he's going to be dealing with- including how substantial the jawbone appears and where the sinuses are (huge issue if they're doing an implant in the upper jawbone- drilling into a sinus cavity is a Very Bad Thing). I can't remember what I paid for that scan- maybe $100 or so? Whatever it was, I doubt he'd break even by doing enough of those scans to pay for it.

 

[Time2]

You aren’t paying for the hours they spend today, you’re paying for the hours it took to get there.

I hope so, I paid about $300k to get my daughter a dental license. She decided after university and 3 years of working that she wanted a higher income. So, first she needed the premed classes, two years, then the timing was wrong to start dental school, so she got a masters, another 6 months, then 4 years of dental school. All I can say is, she's got some bad ass sticktoitness.

She started at a chain and is doing better than her guaranteed income. I expect after they get a nest egg built, she will buy or start her own practice.

 

[ncbill]

IME, that kind of price is associated with dental surgery, implants, crowns, and other more extensive work.

The rest of their hours are spent on consultations and exams, or initial visits with problems to lay out a plan of things to correct. Those hours typically run $100-$200 per visit, for those with no discount/insurance.

The only time I've paid over $2k for the dentist is for an implant. That came as the result of initial review/xrays, then a follow up with a dental surgeon to confirm, then another appointment for the surgeon to perform the extraction and build up, anesthesia, with another follow up to make sure all was healing well....then another to install the actual implant. $2500 ish for 5 visits, multiple hours, most with tech assistants, (also well trained) and an actual implant/crown made - a lot more than 2-3 hours work.

Yep, I'm getting a new crown in place of an old one...#18.

The old crown was over a live tooth...~$600 after insurance, 25+ years ago.

The new crown will be ~$800 after insurance, not counting the ~$800 after insurance I paid for the root canal since the root was beginning to abscess.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

I have been very happy with my dentist but thankfully, I haven't had to have too much "extra" work done. I did have a root canal and a bridge (done in office) that was successfully completed a couple of years ago. He spent about 1.5 hours with me doing the work and the amount it cost me (cash payment, no insurance) was less than I paid a plumber for less time actually worked.

As a matter of fact, most of the construction contractors we have used over the last couple of years have had an hourly rate almost DOUBLE what the "average" billing rate is for attorneys in our area.

 

[Koolau]

IME, that kind of price is associated with dental surgery, implants, crowns, and other more extensive work.

The rest of their hours are spent on consultations and exams, or initial visits with problems to lay out a plan of things to correct. Those hours typically run $100-$200 per visit, for those with no discount/insurance.

The only time I've paid over $2k for the dentist is for an implant. That came as the result of initial review/xrays, then a follow up with a dental surgeon to confirm, then another appointment for the surgeon to perform the extraction and build up, anesthesia, with another follow up to make sure all was healing well....then another to install the actual implant. $2500 ish for 5 visits, multiple hours, most with tech assistants, (also well trained) and an actual implant/crown made - a lot more than 2-3 hours work.

Sounds like you got a bargain. I had a bridge replaced a couple of years ago and paid almost $4K. YMMV

 

[JoeWras]

My last dentist was a gem. She also ER'd because they were a double-dentist family.

Anyway, she didn't do root canals and sent me to an endodontist. The charge there was high. When I visited her again for the crown, I asked her why she didn't become an endo since it seems to be a cash machine? Her answer: she likes to get to know the people in her community, just doing one thing is boring, and it isn't all about the money.

The guy who bought her practice is also good, but he also does root canals and implants. He's never pressured me for any extra work, but should the day arrive, he'll want to be the one who does it. My old dentist kept to the simple stuff.

 

[ncbill]

My last dentist was a gem. She also ER'd because they were a double-dentist family.

Anyway, she didn't do root canals and sent me to an endodontist. The charge there was high. When I visited her again for the crown, I asked her why she didn't become an endo since it seems to be a cash machine? Her answer: she likes to get to know the people in her community, just doing one thing is boring, and it isn't all about the money.

The guy who bought her practice is also good, but he also does root canals and implants. He's never pressured me for any extra work, but should the day arrive, he'll want to be the one who does it. My old dentist kept to the simple stuff.

Ummm...even with only two root canals so far I am still glad my dentist sent me to the endodontist everyone seems to use here locally.

The last one (#18) required a lot of filing over roughly an hour in the chair.

 

[karen1972]

This is why I'll stick with my dentist. $290/yr for 2 cleanings, xrays and discount on other services. I've had zero extra services in 7 years, my honey had 2 fillings. I had one problem spot and he just recommended I use flouride mouth wash and see if I could built back up and he hasn't mentioned that again, so it seems to have worked. I have some spots I know will have to be worked on eventually but for now I'm good.

Though the same is true for pets. There is a whole vet underbelly charging for needless dental appointments for pets which honestly is just wrong because you have to often put them under. We work with a cat rescue and so I see so much vet paperwork as owner surrenders, its all over the paperwork all the time and very rarely needed. We do occasionally get an older cat in that needs dental work or a cleaning but its like 1 out of a 100 cats vs.. like 50% of what these money grubbing vets say.

 

[JoeWras]

Ummm...even with only two root canals so far I am still glad my dentist sent me to the endodontist everyone seems to use here locally.

The last one (#18) required a lot of filing over roughly an hour in the chair.

If the day comes, I know what he'll recommend, but I will likely decline and go to a specialist. The endo that did my one and only root canal was a wizard. I was extremely impressed by their methods and lack of pain.

 

[MarieIG]

My mother had an awful experience with a dentist as a young woman, so she would not let them drill on me. She had beautiful teeth, and no cavities until her early 20s, when a new dentist went berserk and drilled her entire mouth. After she stopped seeing him, amazingly she stopped getting cavities. Once in a while she needed fillings repaired. DF had awful teeth. I got his: thin, yellow, crooked.

When I was seven a dentist pulled a baby tooth, slipped and punched me in the mouth giving me a massive swollen lip. My next visit was at age 14 for a pre-high school exam. He found seven cavities. Mom told him to pound sand. Still waiting for those . . .

One wisdom tooth came in at age 32, which I had pulled since it was piercing my cheek and causing bleeding and drooling. The other three never made an appearance. The dental office recommended one of those deep cleanings, done over four visits, with potential side effect of loosening my teeth and permanently receding gums. (I actually read the disclosure form.) Ummm, no thanks. Ya' got one shot at a regular cleaning, get done what you can.

Went to DF's dentist once. He found my somewhat bunched up teeth "very cute" and no cavities. He said I had good saliva.

Eventually found my current dentist about 15 years ago on the recommendation of a co-worker. He's retired Navy. Initially he recommended that deep planing stuff which was a no-can-do from me. We made a deal wherein I would get regular cleanings four times a year due to me being a plac machine. I also haven't gotten X-rays (in spite of it being covered by insurance) which he hates.

Went yesterday. There was a new hygienist who pried open my mouth and commented on the lack of dental work. She also noted staining and asked me if I was a tea drinker or red wine drinker. (Well, no red wine and only a few cups of tea and a pot of coffee daily.)

Dentist gave me an exam, and recommended the Xrays. Said X rays could enable him to see infections or abscesses to the extent the exist, and would allow him to measure bone loss. He did slip up with regard to cavities and commented "well you're not getting any." Hope he didn't jinx me there! I queried whether measuring bone loss would lead to a change in treatment, and he said no. I gave him the side eye, and his "prescription" was brush, floss and use a mouth wash. I think I can do that.

 

[athena53]

I queried whether measuring bone loss would lead to a change in treatment, and he said no. I gave him the side eye, and his "prescription" was brush, floss and use a mouth wash. I think I can do that.

Two questions to ask for any test: "What are you looking for or trying to rule out?" And "What will you do with the results"? No use taking a test that won't result in any action either way.

 

[MarieIG]

Two questions to ask for any test: "What are you looking for or trying to rule out?" And "What will you do with the results"? No use taking a test that won't result in any action either way.

Very good questions!

 

[Qs Laptop]

I queried whether measuring bone loss would lead to a change in treatment, and he said no. I gave him the side eye, and his "prescription" was brush, floss and use a mouth wash. I think I can do that.

Two questions to ask for any test: "What are you looking for or trying to rule out?" And "What will you do with the results"? No use taking a test that won't result in any action either way.

Good advice. I'd extend this method to doctors as well. In fact, I've learned you have to cross examine medical professionals as if you were Perry Mason in order to get the complete picture out of them.

 

[Koolau]

My last dentist was a gem. She also ER'd because they were a double-dentist family.

Anyway, she didn't do root canals and sent me to an endodontist. The charge there was high. When I visited her again for the crown, I asked her why she didn't become an endo since it seems to be a cash machine? Her answer: she likes to get to know the people in her community, just doing one thing is boring, and it isn't all about the money.

The guy who bought her practice is also good, but he also does root canals and implants. He's never pressured me for any extra work, but should the day arrive, he'll want to be the one who does it. My old dentist kept to the simple stuff.

My mainland dentist is a year younger than I (74) and claims he has no intention to retire. I hope that is correct as I've been going to him for 40 years. Quite satisfied though he is NOT cheap. I just know that everything will work that he does. YMMV

 

[Koolau]

Ummm...even with only two root canals so far I am still glad my dentist sent me to the endodontist everyone seems to use here locally.

The last one (#18) required a lot of filing over roughly an hour in the chair.

I called my Island dentist on a late Friday because a tooth was hurting badly. He had me in Saturday afternoon (usually closed Sat. PM) and offered to do "most" of a root canal - he did not have the specific "tools" needed to complete the j*b and he was up front about that. He DID say that he could stop the pain and set me up with an endo to complete the work (couple of weeks wait time - but not in pain.)

He spent almost 3 hours with me - on a Saturday afternoon- and charged me (wait for it) $125. The endo spent 15 minutes completing the task and charged me (wait for it) $1300! That was his standard charge and I would have paid that amount had I been willing to wait (in pain) for a couple of weeks and let him do all the heavy lifting. YMMV

 

[teejayevans]

My old dentist was going through hard times (divorce?).
First sign of trouble was when he sold his boat. (A expensive ocean capable fishing boat).
Then I needed a crown.
Then I needed another crown, at this point I got a second opinion from my parents dentist, no cavity and no crown needed.
I’m still using their dentist 900 miles away.

 

[Rianne]

I'm in the position of finding dental insurance that includes my dentists. I trust my dentist, he's in a small office with one dental assistant. But if I needed major dental work, I'm not sure he has the equipment. The other dental office has multiple dentists, high-tech equipment, and a great reputation. I trust them but they're so expensive and do not take insurance. They'll file it for you, but you have to pay in full at service. Then, the insurance can reject them as dentists move in and out of the network.

 

[24601NoMore]

Wife and I have been going to a female dentist we were reasonably happy with after years of looking for a good dentist.

Had to get an implant and "crown" recently to replace a broken tooth. At least that's how it was described to me.

Came time to get the "crown" and all went well - until I got the bill. Was expecting about $1,100 as that's what crowns have cost in the past. Nope - $1,970 including a $740 charge for an "abutement", even though NO-ONE mentioned the need for an "abutement" prior to me getting the bill.

I've since learned what an "abutement" is, but dentist (who we "had" a very good relationship with including literally bringing her and her staff home made baked goodies at one point as a thank you) never, even mentioned that I'd need such a thing. Just said she'd do "the crown".

I was not happy at all at getting a $740 "surprise" bill from her, so texted her. She didn't respond for a day or two, so I called the office and spoke with her billing manager. Was basically told to suck it up, and the cost was the cost. Asked to speak to the Dentist. Billing Manager said "she WON'T discuss financials with you". REALLY? Even if I'm unhappy about a $740 surprise bill? Um, lady..you own the Practice. You may not want to take a call from an unhappy patient, but it kinda goes with territory of owning any kind of business.

Dentist finally texted me back..I was polite enough in my responses but also clear that I was never told there'd be TWO parts to "the crown". She then pawned off responsibility and said her old billing manager who's conveniently no longer there "went over it at the time" (she didn't). But get this - she then BLOCKED ME on her phone. SERIOUSLY?

This is after 8 years of being exemplary patients and having a really, really good relationship. I complain about a surprise bill and she BLOCKS ME? I'm expecting to get notice any day that I now need to find a new Dentist as I'm pretty sure if she blocked me that she's going to refuse to treat me (and maybe wife as well) going forward.

All because I (professionally and mostly politely, although I admittedly did allow myself to get a bit frustrated when the billing manager said Dentist "WON'T" talk with me about "financials") complained about a surprise $740 bill.

Yeah, Dentists can really suck.

 

[Walt34]

But get this - she then BLOCKED ME on her phone. SERIOUSLY?

Wow. That would be a flat-out statement to me that I need a new dentist. Yesterday.

 

[24601NoMore]

Wow. That would be a flat-out statement to me that I need a new dentist. Yesterday.

Agreed. Super unprofessional. What's worse is that we "had" a very good, friendly relationship for 8+ years. Ditto, wife and Dentist lady for the same amount of time. That makes it even MORE insulting.

Lesson learned..people are only your "friends" until a problem arises. Then, they'll kick you to the curb pronto if it's in their own selfish interest.

 

[Major Tom]

Wow. That would be a flat-out statement to me that I need a new dentist. Yesterday.

+1. That is incredibly unprofessional behavior.

 

[athena53]

Came time to get the "crown" and all went well - until I got the bill. Was expecting about $1,100 as that's what crowns have cost in the past. Nope - $1,970 including a $740 charge for an "abutment", even though NO-ONE mentioned the need for an "abutment" prior to me getting the bill.

<snip>

I was not happy at all at getting a $740 "surprise" bill from her, so texted her. She didn't respond for a day or two, so I called the office and spoke with her billing manager. Was basically told to suck it up, and the cost was the cost. Asked to speak to the Dentist. Billing Manager said "she WON'T discuss financials with you".

I'm sorry you didn't get a realistic estimate up front. I have multiple implants and the costs are split between the oral surgeon and the dentist but I always had a good estimate of the all-in cost beforehand, typically about $5,000.

The crown for an implant may be more complicated than the crown for a broken-off tooth since it's pretty much an entire fake tooth which has to fit JUST right between the adjacent teeth and screw down firmly into the hole in the implant. (My dentist once had to deal with the work of an oral surgeon who put the threaded hole in at a bit of a slant from the vertical. I have no idea how he managed it.) That probably makes it more expensive.

Still, I agree that your dentist was rude and unprofessional. I hope you find a good replacement.