Is Amazon anti-competitive ?

[Aerides]

I requested a refund and selected the "UPS pickup" from home option. UPS was out the next day and took the package, but never scanned it in...so it still shows as "awaiting pickup". The driver didn't leave a receipt (like they normally do) so I am to assume the package will never make it to AMZN and I am at a loss as to how I will get my almost $400 back.

Call them and be very persistent that you followed their steps and need a refund. Don't take no for an answer. Ask for a super if you must (and probably will for that amount).

 

[braumeister]

I had a couple of similar incidents in the past, so now I never send anything back to anyone without getting a receipt, whether USPS, UPS, or FedEx.

 

[braumeister]

Have you seen prices on Amazon, lately?

On this issue, I have often been amazed. When I ordered a new Dyson vacuum recently, I found Amazon's price to be 20% higher than ordering it directly from Dyson. Both had free shipping, so that's not an issue.

 

[Walt34]

Have you seen prices on Amazon, lately?

Another example is name-brand tools from Home Depot vs. Amazon. I've been buying a lot of Milwaukee tools in the last couple of years and only once did I find a lower price on Amazon.

There have been a couple of other instances with other products whose names escape me at the moment but while Amazon is often the lowest price, that is far from a sure thing often enough that I also make sure to shop around.

 

[CardsFan]

Amazon is in business to make money. Surprise! They will try to get rid of competition. Surprise!

Personally I buy very little from Amazon, or on line in general. Most of my on line purchases are things not easily found in stores. Replacement parts for a 20 year old gas grill, as a recent example.

I always check on line, including Amazon, but will gladly pay a small premium to buy it locally, if possible.

I do shop at Walmart, but mostly for price. I wanted a few cheap, light tee shirts last year. I think they were $3/each. I only wanted them to last a two week trip. Still have them.

Another example. We like Gosling's ginger beer, both plain, and in a Moscow mule. 6 pack is $5.98 at WM. If I can find it elsewhere it is 8 bucks or more.

 

[Amethyst]

Amazon uses buyer psychology, by making the "select...click...pay" process easy and quick. They get people into the habit of buying from them over and over. That way, people are less likely to check around to see if someone else has a better price.

Price deception isn't always hard to spot. The Amazon "free shipping" price is often the same as the third party price + third party shipping.

 

[CaptTom]

I haven't seen higher prices at Amazon. If I ever do, I won't buy them. I think that's kinda the whole point of capitalism. I do expect some types of things to simply be cheaper to stock in a store than to ship, and for those I wouldn't even check Amazon.

I have no great love for any big corporation, but I do give Amazon credit for totally disrupting the old-school shipping BS that on-line (and before that, catalog) sales used to involve. Allow 6-8 weeks for delivery. Add phony "handling" charges which exceeded the cost of the product. I don't want to go back to those days.

Since the pandemic, Amazon's shipping, even with Prime, has been hit-or-miss. Far fewer things show up with 2-day delivery now.

 

[CardsFan]

Another example is name-brand tools from Home Depot vs. Amazon. I've been buying a lot of Milwaukee tools in the last couple of years and only once did I find a lower price on Amazon.

There have been a couple of other instances with other products whose names escape me at the moment but while Amazon is often the lowest price, that is far from a sure thing often enough that I also make sure to shop around.

And, Home Depot offers a ship to store option, so no shipping fees. Bought a replacement part for a kitchen faucet. About $8. Ship to store, pick up 3 days later.

Not available locally at all. Except maybe if I called a plumber?

 

[timo2]

I'll look on Amazon, but will then go find the website of the third party seller (if they have one). I'll then buy directly from the third party who often is the original manufacturer or importer. This doesn't always work and I end up ordering from Amazon about 40% of the time still.

The problem of late I have with Amazon is the resellers that buy something and then resell the product on Amazon for more money than elsewhere. It's been crazy since the beginning of the year.

 

[Walt34]

Since the pandemic, Amazon's shipping, even with Prime, has been hit-or-miss. Far fewer things show up with 2-day delivery now.

I don't fault Amazon for that, every online seller has had to deal with swamped shipping. Millions of people switched to online buying all at the same time and I'd wager it takes a while to gear up to the change.

And it is getting better as time goes on.

 

[JoeWras]

Needed some Tervis cup lids. Found it cheaper to buy directly from Tervis, at the cost of a 9 day wait instead of 2.

 

[triangle]

Amazon is a great company, its leadership is smart, risk taking, knows how to execute well, etc. But I do think they gamed the system in that in their first ~15 years they never reported a profit (I am generalizing here). So they were able to subsidize and bootstrap themselves into a big company while paying no taxes as any normal company would have needed to become profitable or disappear in the interim. They plowed those savings back to into building up their business. For example leveraging the internal technology they built to quickly scale up their eCommerce website as AWS. In the early years of the company Bezo would state over and over that Amazon should not be profitable, that growth was of upmost importance.

I don't know much about corporate accounting, but I recall some criticism of how they structured their different businesses in a way (one business unit subsidizing the other) that was not legal but they were not called out for it by the IRS. I believe free markets are the best economic system, but to the extent there are corporate taxes maybe there needs to be a different accounting of them, perhaps not just on a year-by-year basis.

Example of their anti-competitive practice that came up in the hearing last week (this topic of diapers.com might have already been old news):
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...lan-to-crush-a-startup-rival-with-price-cuts/

 

[Popeye]

Example of their anti-competitive practice that came up in the hearing last week (this topic of diapers.com might have already been old news):
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...lan-to-crush-a-startup-rival-with-price-cuts/

Wow, that’s really bad. Based on the repeated training back in my Megacorp days, that was likely filled with violations. Too bad they didn’t have the emails back when the merger was investigated. Maybe something would have been done.

 

[JoeWras]

I have a friend who preaches to anyone they can to avoid Walmart because of anti-competitive behavior. Same friend loves Amazon. Upon listening more to her, I realize her real issue is politics, but she's hiding that behind the small business competition issue. So it is, I don't argue, I just listen then ignore.

I don't boycott Amazon or Walmart.

I don't love Amazon or Walmart.

I try to buy local, or direct, like my Tervis lids, for example. But it isn't always possible. Sometimes, Amazon is just too convenient, or really the only reliable source of delivery. Sometimes a Great Value brand of a basic food staple is priced so well, you can't pass it up.

In the case of both A and W, I have fallen out of love and am wary, looking for other options first. That's all.

 

[folivier]

Lately I've been re-considering my Amazon Prime purchases. Back a few years ago when we were fulltiming in the motorhome and traveling extensively Amazon was nice with their guaranteed 2 day delivery. We could order something and it would be waiting for us at our next stop. Now? Not so much. Amazon Prime used to ship an item out either the same day or next day. But now it seems to take them up to a week to ship an item. It still comes in a couple days but why so long to ship?
I have 4 items on order now, 1 finally shipped after a week from order date. The other 3 haven't shipped yet. 1 of them is a re-order that is lost somewhere between UPS and USPS. Neither one seems to know where it is. Not Amazon's fault directly. Unfortunately our summer spot is a 1 hour drive to the closest town to pick up anything. Hopefully they will get a handle on their shipping problems soon.
Maybe this should be in the pet peeve topic?

 

[Amethyst]

I've been more patient than usual with shipping delays, because many warehouses are understaffed due to COVID-19 restrictions. Also, the delivery truck drivers are definitely overworked and it shows.

I have 4 items on order now, 1 finally shipped after a week from order date. The other 3 haven't shipped yet. 1 of them is a re-order that is lost somewhere between UPS and USPS. Neither one seems to know where it is. Not Amazon's fault directly. Unfortunately our summer spot is a 1 hour drive to the closest town to pick up anything. Hopefully they will get a handle on their shipping problems soon.
Maybe this should be in the pet peeve topic?

 

[JoeWras]

I've been more patient than usual with shipping delays, because many warehouses are understaffed due to COVID-19 restrictions. Also, the delivery truck drivers are definitely overworked and it shows.

Got me thinking about my Tervis order. It comes from one of the hottest COVID spots in the USA (Tampa area, FL). So perhaps 9 days delivery isn't even typical for them.

 

[OldShooter]

... now it seems to take them up to a week to ship an item. It still comes in a couple days but why so long to ship? ...

They have said that order volume is so high that they are prioritizing shipments based on what is ordered. We have had the usual one- or two-day service on some items and a week on others. Often when they promise a week, they beat it by a few days.

I don't know that they have said how they are prioritizing. Probably grocery items and baby diapers ahead of lawn furniture.

... Unfortunately our summer spot is a 1 hour drive to the closest town to pick up anything. ...

Will UPS deliver there? When we will be at out lake place, I just use that as a shipping address. Amazon always knows when we are at the lake.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

I had a similar situation where I dropped my package at a UPS store but neglected to get a receipt. It was never received at Amazon. Some time later I contacted Amazon and the customer service person was able to see intermediate scans as the package moved in the UPS system. So that was evidence that I had indeed sent the return and I got my money. So you may have similar luck. Of course if the package was picked up by a porch pirate and not UPS, you are definitely SOL.

I don't know that I will be as fortunate. I saw that it was indeed a UPS driver (brown uniform and brown UPS truck) but he was just outside the view of our front viewing camera. The tracking information still shows "Pickup scheduled for today" and contacting AMZN has been fruitless this early in the game. Guess I will wait a couple of weeks and follow up.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

Wow, that’s really bad. Based on the repeated training back in my Megacorp days, that was likely filled with violations. Too bad they didn’t have the emails back when the merger was investigated. Maybe something would have been done.

I think that's one of the overarching issues. Yes, they did wrong and they will be fined. They will pay said fine and keep on keeping on. The financial penalties alone aren't sufficient to stop what they are doing. It's similar to the cruise ships that keep getting fined for dumping up near Alaska...they pay the fine, but keep doing it...

 

[sengsational]

The idea that Amazon has consistently lower prices is a straw man that I'm not sure anyone is defending; one must be a thoughtful consumer to get a good price. And I've never had Prime because it seems like a sucker bet to me. But given Amazon or eBay vs direct from a smaller company, I'd pay a bit more to have an intermediary, should something go wrong. And the instances where something goes wrong and turns out to be hard/impossible to straighten out...sure those happen. I'm not convinced those happen any less frequently going directly to the supplier, and my guess is the smaller the seller, the higher the chances of an unresolved problem.

 

[OldShooter]

The idea that Amazon has consistently lower prices is a straw man that I'm not sure anyone is defending; one must be a thoughtful consumer to get a good price. And I've never had Prime because it seems like a sucker bet to me. But given Amazon or eBay vs direct from a smaller company, I'd pay a bit more to have an intermediary, should something go wrong. And the instances where something goes wrong and turns out to be hard/impossible to straighten out...sure those happen. I'm not convinced those happen any less frequently going directly to the supplier, and my guess is the smaller the seller, the higher the chances of an unresolved problem.

+1 on shopping. A consumer has to shop; there are some hugely overpriced items on eBay. Sellers basically hoping for a sucker or two.

+1 on the intermediary too. I bought a $1200 Surface Pro 6 on Amazon a couple of months ago. The seller shipped a Surface Pro 4, which is physically indistinguishable. From other buyer complaints, this was their standard scam. I did the return-shipment dance, the seller got the return, then did nothing. No refund. I contacted Amazon and, after a couple of go-arounds, got the refund. It was slowed a little bit by the ticket size and their procedures for vetting larger refunds, but if they had not been in the picture I would have had to contest the credit card charge. More time, more hassle, and less certainty I'm sure.

 

[GravitySucks]

Amazon is a great company, its leadership is smart, risk taking, knows how to execute well, etc. But I do think they gamed the system in that in their first ~15 years they never reported a profit (I am generalizing here). So they were able to subsidize and bootstrap themselves into a big company while paying no taxes as any normal company would have needed to become profitable or disappear in the interim. They plowed those savings back to into building up their business. For example leveraging the internal technology they built to quickly scale up their eCommerce website as AWS. In the early years of the company Bezo would state over and over that Amazon should not be profitable, that growth was of upmost importance.

I don't know much about corporate accounting, but I recall some criticism of how they structured their different businesses in a way (one business unit subsidizing the other) that was not legal but they were not called out for it by the IRS. I believe free markets are the best economic system, but to the extent there are corporate taxes maybe there needs to be a different accounting of them, perhaps not just on a year-by-year basis.

Example of their anti-competitive practice that came up in the hearing last week (this topic of diapers.com might have already been old news):
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...lan-to-crush-a-startup-rival-with-price-cuts/

Way back in the 90s internet businesses were giving wavers on profitability so Amazon used it to undercut others putting pressure on existing brick and mortar businesses and other internet based businesses that were not able to raise the cash to stay in business. Other companies had the same option but none seemed to be able to exploit it the same as Amazon.

 

[OldShooter]

Way back in the 90s internet businesses were giving wavers on profitability so Amazon used it to undercut others putting pressure on existing brick and mortar businesses and other internet based businesses that were not able to raise the cash to stay in business. Other companies had the same option but none seemed to be able to exploit it the same as Amazon.

Sorry, Amazon didn't even start selling books and videos until 1998. Subsequently, they got a lot of criticism for not making money but IIRC most of the reason was that they were investing heavily in the business and in various related businesses, looking for ways to grow. I admired the strategy then and still do. I don't think that predatory pricing was or could have been in their strategy back then as they were too small. Even the diapers.com example in @triangle's post was not a brick and mortar business and that was over a decade later.

Really, Amazon's behavior is very typical of any aggressive retailer. Especially Walmart and the category killers like Home Depot, OfficeMax, etc. They are all out for market share and one of the consequences is that smaller competitors get hurt. Walmart is probably the world champion at this, destroying downtowns all over rural America.

I don't love or hate Amazon. They are what they are, just as Walmart is what it is. I patronize both as my needs, their inventories, and their prices dictate.

 

[MichaelB]

Sorry, Amazon didn't even start selling books and videos until 1998.

Amazon began selling books online in mid-1995.