Mexico...sorta dangerous now

"The general country specific page also mentions politically motivated sporadic violence in Chiapas, Guerrero and Oaxaca."

You could take the above sentence and replace it with ""The general country specific page also mentions random and sporadic violence in Houston, New Orleans and New York City."

This doesn't stop most of you from going to these cities... so why the infatuation with irrational fears? The biggest and single most significant risk to your lives each of you perform nearly everyday multiple times... you drive your car!

Life is an adventure - go out and enjoy it!
 
"The general country specific page also mentions politically motivated sporadic violence in Chiapas, Guerrero and Oaxaca."

You could take the above sentence and replace it with ""The general country specific page also mentions random and sporadic violence in Houston, New Orleans and New York City."

Yes, I don't want to perpetuate fear-mongering. Walking down a city street and driving a car are dangerous activities too. Life is full of peril, but don't let fear stand in the way of life. I had not really heard of Oaxaca or Guerrero being particularly bad for tourists, and even from the State Dept's warning it sounds more like politically related violence/protests and not necessarily aimed at tourists.

In my lengthy travels down south (at the beginning of the last decade), in general I thought Mexico was rather safe vs. big city USA. The border area was shady and felt unsafe even back then (Nuevo Laredo) when we crossed into Mexico on foot.

Guns are less available down there, severe penalties are imposed if you are found with one, and they don't have the same civil liberties as we do in the US of A, hence searches happen more easily. Federal or Municipal Police with automatic assault rifles are common in some parts of the country, in the airports, subways, etc.

Edit to add: I would have no problem traveling to most of Mexico (excepting the border region) with my wife and young kids. Definitely doesn't seem any worse than traveling with them to New Orleans, NYC, Miami, Atlanta, St. Louis, etc. As with anywhere, know where you are traveling, avoid bad neighborhoods, study up on your destinations, trust your gut instinct and get out of somewhere that gives you the creeps.

After reading about New Orleans and the French Quarter a while back, the advise was basically do NOT go anywhere on foot at night down there or you stand a high chance of getting robbed, mugged, or worse. Not sure how true it is (then or now), but that certainly seems WAY more dangerous than anywhere I have been in Mexico.
 
I had not really heard of Oaxaca or Guerrero being particularly bad for tourists, and even from the State Dept's warning it sounds more like politically related violence/protests and not necessarily aimed at tourists.
The issues in that area are the occasional uprisings/civil unrest of the Zapatistas versus the MX govt. Worthwhile being aware of it and perhaps not visiting if there is civil disobedience/protesting going on. Otherwise, enjoy!

Audrey
 
The issues in that area are the occasional uprisings/civil unrest of the Zapatistas versus the MX govt. Worthwhile being aware of it and perhaps not visiting if there is civil disobedience/protesting going on. Otherwise, enjoy!

Audrey

From a quick wikipedia read, it seems the Zapatistas have toned down since their uprising in the 1990's. Back at the turn of the century, I think it was regarded as wise to avoid Chiapas. Like Colombia, I think that attitude is starting to change now with a reduction in the violence.

I suppose if one can not communicate in Spanish it would hinder the ability to do due diligence on the ground once in Mexico. You could, for example, ask about the situation in a neighboring city when talking to hotel staff, waiters, bus station ticket clerk, police, etc before making travel arrangements to go to your destination. Or pick up a local newspaper and read the front page to see if anything is about to happen. If there are many gringos where you are going I would bet there would be English language posts on Mexico expat forums that could give you a very timely status update on the situation on the ground in your locality.
 
I spent Xmas in Oaxaca in 2002 and enjoyed it immensely, but just a year or two later there was enough civil unrest and protest and extra govt troops in Oaxaca that I would not have returned. No matter whether tourists are targeted or not, if there are road blockages or strikes or crowds or whatever due to civil unrest or crowd control measures or some kind of military crackdown it's not much fun being a tourist in the area.

It comes and goes. You just have to be aware. It's pretty easy to be apprised of the current situation via the internet.

Audrey
 
Another data point: we were in Mexico City in 1999 IIRC during a period of months long protest/strike by college and school faculty and students against low pay or something. Didn't really impact us a lot, even though we stayed a few blocks from the Zocalo where there were many thousands protesting around the clock. Went back the following year, stayed in the same hotel, and the experience was about the same, except without the protests. No violence for the most part and extra police/military were passive, mainly serving as crowd control I guess.
 
It seems to me that the "war on drugs" was lost a long time ago. As a result of U.S. addiction entire countries and parts of our own are owned by drug interests, most notably on our Mexican doorstep, and the U.S. taxpayers are spending $$ on a war they can no longer afford and, that has no winning strategy.

I can't imagine that we would not be more secure (at home and on Mexican holiday) and less impoverished if we legalize the majority of these drugs and control their distribution in a manner similar to alcohol. Provide free treatment.
I'm not going to dispute the security element, but how much does the abuse of legalized alcohol cost us now?

From a 2000 report (in 1998 dollars) from the Public Health Service/National Institutes of Health / National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, the total cost twelve years ago was almost 185 Billion dollars. http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/economic-2000/

I think we need to do some more figuring before we just blatantly say that legalizing drugs will solve all of our problems. I suspect it may be more of a case of we just shift the costs to some place else in our economy and society.
 
I think we need to do some more figuring before we just blatantly say that legalizing drugs will solve all of our problems...
Some of my Libertarian friends believe that legalizing drugs would be the solution. I said "Yeah, wait until your own kids get stoned from PCP or meth that they can buy from a guy at the school bus stop".
 
Some of my Libertarian friends believe that legalizing drugs would be the solution. I said "Yeah, wait until your own kids get stoned from PCP or meth that they can buy from a guy at the school bus stop".
Funny, that's pretty much the way I feel about Libertarianism. It sounds great in theory, but then you look deeper and add in the human element and you know it will never work as envisioned. No offense intended to any Libertarians here, I'm sure some of you are sane, rational and intelligent, it's just that I never met any of you in the real world. Every Libertarian I ever met in real life made me wonder why they weren't wearing their tin foil hat that day.

It's that old "unintended consequences" thing that always comes around. Amsterdam for example, with it's legalized, regulated and unionized prostitution along with sort-of-legal drug sales, possession and usage. They're backing away from that, or at least trying to cut it way back, because it was turning into a disaster. Human trafficking in women forced into prostitution, violence and a plethora of problems associated with drugs.
A fundamental principle in economic science is that supply and price of a product affect its demand. With cannabis legally and plentifully available, its use is much higher in Amsterdam (almost 3 times more) than in the rest of the country (note: 80% of Dutch municipalities do not allow the sale of marijuana). Furthermore, in Amsterdam marijuana consumption is well above EU averages - and these figures do not count the tourists. An urban problem? Hardly so: there is no difference in the rates of marijuana use between London and the rest of the UK, or between Washington DC and the rest of the USA. Elsewhere in the world, the urban setting does not affect drug consumption rates: why should it affect Amsterdam? To conclude, the city has a health problem caused by marijuana availability, and this could get worse as cannabis becomes more potent.
UN Office on Drugs and Crime - A study tour of Amsterdam - June 2008. http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/about-unodc/costas-corner/amsterdam.html

I spent most of my life making a good living regulating either illegal drugs; illegal sex acts; or legalized, regulated and taxed alcohol. There's nothing I haven't seen. And what I know is this, legalizing drugs and prostitution will not solve anything. There will be people who will not have any problems, but there will be plenty of people who will self-destruct, they'll go down blazing destroying things as they go, and all too often they'll take people down with them. Organized crime didn't get out of the alcohol business after Prohibition was repealed, speakeasies still exist right along with a lot of ostensibly "legal" bars that are doing all sorts of criminal stuff and barely concealing it.

Legalize it all you want, but the problems and the costs just get shifted a little is all that will happen.
 
I agree with much of what you say. As long as they don't take away my booze... Even the booze, I average less than 1 drink a day. Heck, that's the only thing I have left to enjoy, as I quit smoking cigarettes 7 years ago. :(
 
There is a certain added danger when one is out of one's milieu that we haven't yet discussed. Yes, New Orleans is dangerous but IMO it is many times more dangerous for a Japanese tourist than it is for someone from Chicago or Memphis, who might more easily spot some dangerous places or situations. And, it is more dangerous to them than to a native New Orleanian.

Similarly, I would think that American tourists are in a lot more danger in some places and situations in Mexico than are those who live there or who have spent much time there (whether expats or locals).
 
There is a certain added danger when one is out of one's milieu that we haven't yet discussed. Yes, New Orleans is dangerous but IMO it is many times more dangerous for a Japanese tourist than it is for someone from Chicago or Memphis, who might more easily spot some dangerous places or situations. And, it is more dangerous to them than to a native New Orleanian.

Similarly, I would think that American tourists are in a lot more danger in some places and situations in Mexico than are those who live there or who have spent much time there (whether expats or locals).

Applause!!!

This is so frequently overlooked. I often takes years to understand a culture, even if you are very good with the language. Tourists, if they get off the tour-track, are like zebras on the periphery of their herd.

Years after I was in some situation that was tricky but worked out OK I sometimes get a flash -"Oh, that is what was going on!"

Also, I sometimes look back and think-was I really that clueless? Even today right on my home turf, it can take all day just trying to avoid being run over by the clue-bus.

Ha
 
Another data point: we were in Mexico City in 1999 IIRC during a period of months long protest/strike by college and school faculty and students against low pay or something. Didn't really impact us a lot, even though we stayed a few blocks from the Zocalo where there were many thousands protesting around the clock. Went back the following year, stayed in the same hotel, and the experience was about the same, except without the protests. No violence for the most part and extra police/military were passive, mainly serving as crowd control I guess.
Mexico City as a destination? I assume it was due to work!

There seems to always be a strike/sit-in or something associated with Universidad Autónoma de México.

Audrey
 
I spent most of my life making a good living regulating either illegal drugs; illegal sex acts; or legalized, regulated and taxed alcohol.
Could that cause a bit of bias? One hates to have spent their life doing meaningless things (although a lot of my mega-corp career qualifies). How would your life have differed if you had spent it regulating legal drugs, legal sex acts or "legalized, regulated and taxed alcohol"? Is there a difference between those activities mentioned that are illegal and those that are not?

There's nothing I haven't seen. And what I know is this, legalizing drugs and prostitution will not solve anything.
Maybe not, depends what 'solve anything' means, care to elaborate? It might save many tax dollars wasted by:

  • putting (and paying to keep) people in jail for "lifestyle choices"
  • not applying and collecting "sin taxes"
  • requiring a police response to "regulate" things like dealers and pimps (who, hopefully, would need other employment if these things were legalized).
The real question is: What are you trying to solve? If I have the money and the inclination to spend it on gambling, pot, hookers or religious whacko's, who are you to tell me that I can't? And why would you care?
 
Was that not what I was saying earlier? Thanks, W2R, for getting the point!:) While guns are blazing in restaurants I just don't feel knowledgeable about going into foreign territory.

Leonidas, there is a huge Libertarian movement in Houston for some reason. I never encountered Libertarians in Chicago even tho I was involved in Independent Politics there. Libertarianism is great in theory...that, unfortunately, won't work in real life. But if it only could....I'd be in.
 
Mexico City as a destination? I assume it was due to work!

There seems to always be a strike/sit-in or something associated with Universidad Autónoma de México.

Different strokes for different folks, but I really liked Mexico City. Other than the thick smog that really irritated my sinuses, I loved it. Lots of culture, good museums, good parks, history, buildings from the 1500's, temples, pyramids, ruins from before that. Good subway system. Kicking nightlife. Cheap. Tons of street food, tons of local markets that also have food vendors. Diego Rivera murals (big fan!). Dirty. Grimy. Real.

I would definitely go back and spend another week or two there just to see stuff I missed before.

But then again I'm more of a city person than a country/outdoors person. So to each their own.
 
Here's an excellent new post from Billy and Akaisha Kaderli from their current road trip through Mexico, Guatemala and Belize for information and, possibly, inspiration. They are masters of low-cost, high-fun travel. FYI current peso/U.S. dollar exchange rate is around 12.5. Enjoy!

Road Trip Travel Expenses
 
Different strokes for different folks, but I really liked Mexico City. Other than the thick smog that really irritated my sinuses, I loved it. Lots of culture, good museums, good parks, history, buildings from the 1500's, temples, pyramids, ruins from before that. Good subway system. Kicking nightlife. Cheap. Tons of street food, tons of local markets that also have food vendors. Diego Rivera murals (big fan!). Dirty. Grimy. Real.
Smog and grime notwithstanding, I never really realized how close to perfect the climate is in Mexico City until looking it up now. Typical summer highs are in the low 80s and the typical winter lows are in the 40s. Not bad at all.

Too bad it comes with all the smog, all the grime and about 20 million people in the area.
 
Here's an excellent new post from Billy and Akaisha Kaderli from their current road trip through Mexico, Guatemala and Belize for information and, possibly, inspiration. They are masters of low-cost, high-fun travel. FYI current peso/U.S. dollar exchange rate is around 12.5. Enjoy!

Road Trip Travel Expenses

Man, $50 a day and living nice! I just hope gang warfare won't turn the rest of the country into a hell-hole. Definitely a great country to live well on the cheap, and one that still has a Western culture that many of us in the US are familiar with to some degree. Also a fairly accessible language.

DW and I made it through Mexico on about $25 a day back in 2000. Her comment after the trip was "next time we are going to splurge and stay in the $20 a night hotels". :D Poor broke cheap college students at the time FYI.
 
Smog and grime notwithstanding, I never really realized how close to perfect the climate is in Mexico City until looking it up now. Typical summer highs are in the low 80s and the typical winter lows are in the 40s. Not bad at all.

Too bad it comes with all the smog, all the grime and about 20 million people in the area.

It is really a hidden gem if you can put up with the smog and the busy city life.

The weather is great year round. Average highs in the 70's year round. That is like year round spring time for me (as a resident of the SE USA).

The other good thing about it is that it isn't very far away from much of the US (by air).
 
Smog and grime notwithstanding, I never really realized how close to perfect the climate is in Mexico City until looking it up now. Typical summer highs are in the low 80s and the typical winter lows are in the 40s. Not bad at all.

Too bad it comes with all the smog, all the grime and about 20 million people in the area.
But I think you can just go up and over the volcano ring (50 miles) and visit Cuernavaca and get the nice climate (actually lusher vegetation) but no smog and a beautiful colonial city not nearly so clogged with people (population 350,000) roads and cars.

Audrey
 
The real question is: What are you trying to solve?
I'm not trying to solve anything. Other posters espoused the theory that it was the illegal nature of drugs like Cocaine, Marijuana, Methamphetamine and so on as being the root economic cause behind the profitability of Mexican drug trafficking organizations, and thus caused the violence in Northern Mexico. Further, that the legalization of drugs in the U.S. would eliminate the violence, and bring about a net savings to the U.S. by redirecting the money spent on enforcement activities. I think the most frequently heard theme is, "Legalize it, regulate it, and tax the hell out of it."

My reply was merely to question if legalization would decrease public expenses, and then later to espouse a counter-argument that legalization actually might not decrease our costs because we would just shift expenses from some areas to others. My points were backed up with estimated costs to society (in the hundreds of Billions) regulating alcohol consumption and numerous other public and private costs associated with something that was "legalized, regulated, and heavily taxed." And, by observations made about the problems encountered in Amsterdam, where quasi-legalized and regulated drug sales and usage has created what some see as a "public health problem".

It was all about economics and public health, and public health is thrown in just because current political debates seem to want to shoulder society with more of the costs to provide public health.

You can see whatever you want in this statement, as you apparently found it to be a cause for some bias on my part:
I spent most of my life making a good living regulating either illegal drugs; illegal sex acts; or legalized, regulated and taxed alcohol.
But all I was saying, and all I see there, is a simple statement that I have years of experience in the inner workings of the manufacture, importation and sale of illegal drugs, the inner workings of prostitution and other illegal aspects of the sex industry, the diversion of legal drugs into illegal sales, and the violation of criminal laws regulating alcohol sales in a mostly legal industry.

Since we were discussing legalizing, regulating and taxing what are now illegal drugs; and, I have experience in investigating all aspects of the criminal sale of drugs, as well as investigating and regulating the illegal aspects of the otherwise legal (but regulated to one extent or another) activities of alcohol sales and sexual activity, I thought I might first lay down a foundation for the basis of my opinion.

What I'm saying is that my opinions on drug crimes, alcohol crimes and commercialized illegal sex are not just some random babblings that I conjured up from television, novels, discussion boards and a few anecdotes. I've testified as an expert witness in all of those things in state and federal court, and five years after retiring I still get calls from people wanting my opinion (on and off the stand) on these subjects.

I don't have a clue where you came up with all this "sin tax" and "lifestyle choices" from. Actually, I do have my suspicions, but I don't see why you're dragging all of that into something that was simply a discussion of the economics of the problem. Maybe you have some bias?
If I have the money and the inclination to spend it on gambling, pot, hookers or religious whacko's, who are you to tell me that I can't? And why would you care?
Just another member of society who gets taxed to pay the bills for expenses created when some of my fellow citizens get stupid. Who are you to tell me I have to pay the bill to clean up after you and your excessive behaviors that create a public expense and increased my tax burden?
Could that cause a bit of bias? One hates to have spent their life doing meaningless things (although a lot of my mega-corp career qualifies).
You might feel as if you wasted your life making widgets, but I found arresting people was very rewarding on many levels. I never could envision rating my success by how well I could convince someone to buy the widgets I was selling, or looking at the monthly sales stats and see where I ranked (not that I'm not ultra-competitive and always knew where my stats placed me). Personally, I really don't see anything as challenging as catching bad guys. As Hemingway said, once you've hunted armed men and liked it, you'll never care for anything else thereafter.

Certainly I received negative feedback (flipped birds, "oink oink" sound effects and a few eggs and rocks), but at least as numerous have been the spontaneous rounds of applause, handshakes, hugs and tearful "thank you's" I received after kicking in some bad guys' door and putting them in the back of a blue & white. You have to know you made a difference in peoples' lives when they say, "we've been praying to God that you would come and take those people away from our neighborhood". I received my share of complaints, but it was a small percentage compared to the positive feedback in letters of praise, awards, gifts, and even offers of hero-worship sex that I received.

Or, by meaningless, did you mean I should feel that I wasted my life combating crime but never being able to eliminate it? No way, not ever, not no-how. Crime has always existed and always will - there will always be people who can't abide by society's rules. My job was to catch them, not recreate society into something unobtainable. My successes were in locking up individual criminals, and wreaking havoc and spreading fear among the rest of them.
How would your life have differed if you had spent it regulating legal drugs, legal sex acts or "legalized, regulated and taxed alcohol"? Is there a difference between those activities mentioned that are illegal and those that are not?
I'll admit that I don't understand the question. If something wasn't illegal why would I care from a professional standpoint? One of the quickest things to change in a person's mind when they start doing police work is the making of moral judgments about 90+% of the people they arrest. It's just a waste of time and gets in the way of doing the job. Arresting people who break the law is what the job is all about, and the only distinguishing most cops make is to differentiate based on how hard someone is to catch, or how blatant they were in doing their crimes. If you were bold and open you were just seen as someone who was begging to be arrested; and, if you were really good at what you did you were seen as a professional challenge. And if you were inept and easily caught, you were a joke to be told later over coffee. Other than what I needed to be able to successfully prosecute the case in court, I didn't care what you did or why you did it - I just cared if it was illegal.

Today, in my post-policing life, I don't care what you do. Well, unless you try to victimize me or mine, in which case you would be lucky to survive. But other than that, with the exception of paying the bill for whatever little disasters you may cause, I don't care if you smoke weed until you turn green, gamble away every dime you got, carouse with more whores than you can count, or sell everything and give it all to Gene Scott's widow.

What's that old saw "your freedom to swing your fists ends at the tip of my nose"? Same thing applies when it comes to people doing stupid things and expecting me to pick up the tab when things go bad.

And while you may feel that drug users, whore-mongers and gambling addicts are wrongfully persecuted for exercising some imagined right to do whatever; I think I speak for 99.8% of all cops when I say none of them are morally offended by people doing such things. It's a simple decision tree: Is it illegal? Can I make a legal arrest? Should I make an arrest or choose a lawful alternative. At some personal level there may be an opinion about such people - it usually revolves around thinking how stupid the offender is to waste his time or money on such things. Compared to all of the really evil stuff that cops witness in their careers, somebody blowing some yerba, doing a backseat tango with a ho from the stroll, or blowing the mortgage money in a backroom craps game is just a mild aberration from standard behavior.

Did I say I don't care what you do enough times?
 
But I think you can just go up and over the volcano ring (50 miles) and visit Cuernavaca and get the nice climate (actually lusher vegetation) but no smog and a beautiful colonial city not nearly so clogged with people (population 350,000) roads and cars.

Cuernavaca is where all the folks from Mexico City go on weekends. That is also where I spent the summer the first time down doing study abroad. Nice city. Not nearly as much to do as Mexico City. But cleaner and a little less busy. Also a lot more gringos and expats (lots of language schools are based there).

If you want nice year round weather and relaxing, something like Cuernavaca would be better than Mexico City.
 
Cuernavaca is where all the folks from Mexico City go on weekends. That is also where I spent the summer the first time down doing study abroad. Nice city. Not nearly as much to do as Mexico City. But cleaner and a little less busy. Also a lot more gringos and expats (lots of language schools are based there).

If you want nice year round weather and relaxing, something like Cuernavaca would be better than Mexico City.
Can I assume that it's quite a bit more expensive? I've found that almost everything in Latin America that's clean, safe and has a lot of gringos and expats loses much of the cost of living advantages of Latin America -- though my "research" has been far from exhaustive.
 
Can I assume that it's quite a bit more expensive? I've found that almost everything in Latin America that's clean, safe and has a lot of gringos and expats loses much of the cost of living advantages of Latin America -- though my "research" has been far from exhaustive.
Of course! If you really want cheap in Mexico you better go out and live in the rural areas which have few amenities.

Audrey
 
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