Is a dilute bleach solution a satisfactory hand cleaner for COVID?

[NW-Bound]

4) If it really works, why has the CDC not recommended it?

5) And now, even as it turns out that the CDC does recommend it for Ebola, how well is it going to work on the SARS-CoV-2?

If one is picky, he will say that there is yet no actual test of any disinfectant against the SARS-CoV-2. Experts assume that this new virus is as susceptible to common disinfectant as the old 2003 SARS-CoV. They say the structure of the virus is the same, except for some genetic differences. Beats me, as I don't know this stuff.

Can I make the same assumption to say that a 0.1% solution of bleach will be good with the new virus, knowing that it works with the old virus? And if dilute bleach works on Ebola on skin, it will also work for the coronavirus on skin?

About the CDC slide showing the application for Ebola, it is obvious that it is meant for poor African countries. Sodium hypochlrorite is very cheap, and one does not need a lot of it either. But to recommend this smelly solution for rich Americans who are accustomed to alcohol gel? Forget it.

Well, this virus outbreak has reduced the US to a 3rd-world country in some regards. If the hoarding of necessities continues, I will not be surprised to see CDC takes this Ebola slide and modifies it for the SARS-CoV-2. And I expect a run on bleach after that.

More to follow...

 

[Ready]

I’m not following how you look at the PDF that is being referenced:

https://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/pdf/making-hand-washing-solution-bleach-hth.pdf

And draw the conclusions you are drawing. There are very few words on that document, and none making any reference to effectiveness against various viruses. It is a generic recipe for creating a hand sanitizing wash using bleach.

If you refer to the Ebola section of the CDC website that contains this document, there is a little more information here:

https://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/prevention/handwashing.html

But again it makes it clear that the bleach solution should be your last resort. And it provides no information on how long the bleach needs to be on your hands to be effective. Even the post originally provided by Gumby suggests a minimum of 1 minute, presumably at full strength since no dilution ratio is mentioned:

https://www.epa.gov/pesticide-registration/list-n-disinfectants-use-against-sars-cov-2

And it also provides the following disclaimer:

Note: Inclusion on this list does not constitute an endorsement by EPA. There may be additional disinfectants that meet the criteria for use against SARS-CoV-2. EPA will update this list with additional products as needed.

So assuming the post by Gumby from the EPA can be trusted, can you explain how you plan to keep the bleach solution on your hands for a full minute without adding any thickening agent to it?

 

[NW-Bound]

6) Alcohol works better, when mixed with a gel.

Well when you cannot find alcohol in stores, what do you do?

I would use gel sanitizer if I could buy it. I am not against it. Please don't get me wrong. But here are some facts.

Alcohol does not kill germs that well, a college friend told me a long time ago, when I was studying engineering and he medicine. He explained that when used on wounds, alcohol cleans better than water as it is a strong solvent, and that is the reason it is recommended. Also, sterile water may not be available. Because alcohol is weak, its content has to be 70% in a sanitizer, while sodium hypochloride can be way way low, down to 0.1% and below.

Alcohol also evaporates so fast, you would need a lot to rinse your hand to sanitize. The gel serves to slow down the evaporation, so that you can spread and rub it all around your fingers. Without the gel, you would need a lot of alcohol. A portable squirt bottle would not work.

As mentioned repeatedly earlier, this virus is actually easy to kill with disinfectants when outside of the human body. And that's why soap and water kills it.

And again, soap and water is better than anything else because it washes away dirt and grease, including under the fingernails. No matter how strong a disinfectant is, it cannot kill virus hidden under dirt or grease on the hand.

Notice that they do not mention anything about what soap to use. Any soap can do. Think about that. And why alcohol has to be 70%?

Dilute bleach solution saponifies when it is applied to the human skin. It acts as its own wetting agent. Anyone who works with bleach for laundry or cleaning knows this. It feels slippery between your fingers. It does not need to be mixed with a gel like alcohol.

Why doesn't the CDC slide on Ebola say how long one needs to wash with this solution? It is not as critical as with soap, because it is so much stronger. And it is liquid so it is very easy to wet all skin areas of your hand. Alcohol gel requires careful spreading to go in between fingers.


More to follow...

 

[NW-Bound]

I’m not following how you look at the PDF that is being referenced:

https://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/pdf/making-hand-washing-solution-bleach-hth.pdf

And draw the conclusions you are drawing. There are very few words on that document, and none making any reference to effectiveness against various viruses. It is a generic recipe for creating a hand sanitizing wash using bleach.

If you refer to the Ebola section of the CDC website that contains this document, there is a little more information here:

https://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/prevention/handwashing.html

But again it makes it clear that the bleach solution should be your last resort. And it provides no information on how long the bleach needs to be on your hands to be effective. Even the post originally provided by Gumby suggests a minimum of 1 minute, presumably at full strength since no dilution ratio is mentioned:

https://www.epa.gov/pesticide-registration/list-n-disinfectants-use-against-sars-cov-2

And it also provides the following disclaimer:

Note: Inclusion on this list does not constitute an endorsement by EPA. There may be additional disinfectants that meet the criteria for use against SARS-CoV-2. EPA will update this list with additional products as needed.

So assuming the post by Gumby from the EPA can be trusted, can you explain how you plan to keep the bleach solution on your hands for a full minute without adding any thickening agent to it?

I was not aware that there are two different PDF files about bleach solution!

I saw the above for the 1st time. It has info on making a 0.05% solution using bleach, in addition as how to mix it from HTH chlorine powder.

Mine has info on making a "strong" and a "mild" solution, and it was clearly intended for people caring for Ebola patients.

Note the words on the slide: blood, vomit, poopoo, peepee, snot, spit, sweat. These are the body excretions from an Ebola patient. And see the photo depicting an Ebola patient lying on the ground.

See: https://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/pdf/2.6-percent-chlorine-bleach-solution.pdf.

That's 0.05% solution, and intended to use on hands.

As I mentioned, there are various articles on the effectiveness of 0.1% solution for SARS-CoV. I cited one earlier. Again, everybody assumes SARS-CoV-2 is as susceptible as the old SARS-CoV. Else, we are all doomed.

I can understand how CDC does not recommend this if alcohol sanitizer gel is available. I will talk about that next.

 

[statsman]

Reading this thread, I am grateful my DW has been a hand sanitizer addict for a long time. Whenever we go to a restaurant, store, or she handles money, out comes the bottle. The latter is related to having worked 40+ years in banking, the earlier years handling money, and knowing it's some of the dirtiest items we handle while out in public.

We still have two unopened 1L refill bottles of hand sanitizer, the last one purchased in early January when she was down to the last refill bottle. As I said, DW is addicted to the stuff and does not like to run out. In addition, we also have two 20 oz bottles of clear aloe vera gel and a full fifth of Everclear 190 if things get real ugly. Again, these were in the house before the crisis hit.

I used to tease my DW about her hand sanitizer use. She gets bummed whenever she accidentally leaves her travel size bottle in a restaurant. That said, I've used more hand sanitizer in the last three weeks than I had my entire life up to that point.

Hopefully the lesson going forward is to always have a fresh supply of hand sanitizer and actually use it in public. From experience, having misplaced a refill bottle for several years, the hand sanitizer will turn to almost water consistency after a period of time, making it much less effective because of the loss of the gel.

 

[Just_Steve]

If chlorine was an effective and safe hand sanitizer don't you think it would be commercialized already? Hell, even Clorox doesn't use bleach in their hand sanitizer.

Clorox Hand Sanitizer, Spray, 16.9 Ounces
16.9 ounce pump spray bottle of Hand Sanitizer
From Clorox Commercial Solutions
Bleach-free formula kills 99.999% of germs in 15 seconds
Formulated with 71% ethyl alcohol and bleach-free
Provides broad spectrum antimicrobial activity

 

[ERD50]

If chlorine was an effective and safe hand sanitizer don't you think it would be commercialized already? Hell, even Clorox doesn't use bleach in their hand sanitizer. ...

Yes, but sometimes what is done on a commercial level just doesn't apply to what we do on a home scale, for a variety of reasons.

But here is some interesting notes on bleach (emph mine):

https://www.scripps.edu/newsandviews/e_20060213/bleach.html

Bleach is more effective at killing germs when diluted than when used straight out of the bottle. For most uses, a ratio of nine parts water to one part bleach is recommended.

Bleach can expire. After a shelf life of six months, bleach starts to degrade. Even in its original bottle, bleach becomes 20 percent less effective as each year goes by.

Bleach mixed with water at a 1:9 ratio (i.e. 10 percent bleach) is potent for about a day (it's more unstable in its diluted form).

-ERD50

 

[Ready]

I think the reason we don’t see anyone proposing bleach as a solution for hand sanitizer is because it was never intended to be used on the skin. It’s caustic and irritating. It can cause discoloration to both skin and anything it touches.

That is why the only document that anyone has been able to find after all this discussion is a cartoon drawing that was created for third world countries with no access to soap or alcohol as a last resort effort to fight Ebola virus.

It is sad to think that in the US we need to resort to third world solutions to fight infectious diseases. Sad indeed.

 

[NW-Bound]

I keep reading that sodium hypochlorite is commonly used in hospitals as a disinfectant. I wonder what the applications are, because I did not encounter it when I was hospitalized. Perhaps it is mostly used by the cleaning crew to disinfect a room, in between patients.

Its power to kill microbes is not questioned in any article I run across. However, its use as a hand sanitizer is not ideal for many reasons.

It's smelly. The chlorine that it gives off is said to have the potential to cause asthma over time.

Most importantly I think, it is caustic, and if you use it repeatedly throughout the day, it will wear out the skin on your hand. It would not be something for use by healthcare workers who have to disinfect their hands as they move from room to room to examine patients. Their hands would be raw at the end of the day.

As for me, I use it only when going to the store. That's only once every few days. I have had no adverse effects on my hands and fingers.

This is quite OK for emergency use, when there's nothing else available. It works, and is not dangerous as feared. As long as you limit its use, it's safe.

 

[NW-Bound]

It is sad to think that in the US we need to resort to third world solutions to fight infectious diseases. Sad indeed.

Yes. Beggars cannot be choosy. But it is not ineffectual, nor dangerous as you think.

Here's how I use it, as I describe earlier.

When I get out of the store, before I open the car door, I pour a tablespoon of the solution on a piece of paper towel. I wipe my hands with it, including all 10 fingers. I then use the towel to wipe the car door handle too, before I opened it.

There's quite a bit of residual of the stuff on my hands when I am done, as I can tell by the chlorine smell. This ensures me that it's working.

PS. By the way, I surely hope we will not descend further into the 3rd world way, when they run out of hospital rooms and medical equipment. This chlorine solution for disinfecting is nothing compared to that.

 

[Ready]

This is quite OK for emergency use, when there's nothing else available. It works, and is not dangerous as feared. As long as you limit its use, it's safe.

I would agree with this position. I think you’ve come around a bit from your first post on the subject to this one.

I still would rather bring a bottle of water and soap in my car, as I don’t see washing my hands after visiting a store equating to any emergencies. And I don’t have any desire to mix up a fresh batch every day to ensure potency. But to each his own.

 

[NW-Bound]

I have read my post again. I don't see anything to give anyone that idea.

I have been talking about using bleach as hand disinfectant elsewhere in the forum, and also of seeing stores all out of alcohol, I thought.

With the water+soap method, you would need quite a bit of water. It is a lot messier than wiping the bleach solution on my hands. It turns itself into a soap film, and stays on the skin. It is not rinsed off. I wash my hands when I get home, in order to reduce that chlorine smell.

PS. The emergency I talk about is this whole virus outbreak, with shortages of everything.

 

[Just_Steve]

"Diluted household bleach disinfects within 10–60 minutes contact time"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK214356/

 

[NW-Bound]

These are the last issues that were raised.

7) CDC recommends making a fresh solution each day. This is cumbersome.

8) It is easier to carry a pail of water and soap when going shopping.

I knew bleach gets "worn out" with time, but was surprised to see CDC saying the mixed solution is good only for a day.

I think it is erring on the side of caution. Sodium hypochlorite reacts with organic material. Anything organic falling into the solution will be attacked, and the sodium hypochlorite is used up, and the solution weakens. Sodium hypochlorite is also unstable, and breaks down with time. In an unopened bottle, it is said to lose 20% each year.

A mixed solution is often left in an open pail, and loses its chlorine quite fast. The process is hastened by heat and sunlight. People who own a swimming pool know this. I have to add chlorine at a rate of 10x during the summer than during the winter.

When the solution is stored in a closed bottle, it should last longer. A paper published in NIH said that for a student laboratory setting, the author reported that the standard 10% solution for lab disinfection was found to be still effective for a week, when tested against 22 different organisms.

The one-day discard sounds too draconian, and perhaps it is to ensure safety in the most adverse conditions.

I address the pail of water+soap alternative earlier.

 

[NW-Bound]

"Diluted household bleach disinfects within 10–60 minutes contact time"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK214356/

Wow, that's quite a long time. It's more than I read elsewhere.

Here's another reference: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2590088920300081.

Some disinfectant agents effectively reduce coronavirus infectivity within 1 minute such 62%–71% ethanol, 0.5% hydrogen peroxide or 0.1% sodium hypochlorite. Other compounds such as 0.05%–0.2% benzalkonium chloride or 0.02% chlorhexidine digluconate are less effective.

 

[Just_Steve]

I found the below to be an interesting read.

Dakin Solution (Sodium Hypochlorite)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK507916/

 

[TheHobbit]

Pro-tip, make your own hand sanitizer by:

Buy:
1. 90-97% pure aloe vera gel (you can get this from walmart.com)
2. 93-99% Rubbing alcohol (not 70%!)
3. Essential oil such as lavender

Mix 3/4 cups rubbing alcohol with 1/4 cup aloe vera gel and 10 drops of the essential oil. For about $30-40 you can make more sanitizer than you'll ever want or need. Key point, you need about 60-70% rubbing alcohol to kill the COVID-19 virus in your sanitizer.

Source: https://www.healthline.com/health/how-to-make-hand-sanitizer

 

[NW-Bound]

The next useful tip would be on where to get 99% alcohol in this climate.

eBay buyers beware! There are scammers who sell gallon-size containers of 99% alcohol very cheap. They take money and ship nothing. Read the feedback. I guess no shipping is still better than shipping fake products. I wonder why eBay has not shut them down.

 

[ncbill]

I would also be careful about leaving any bleach or alcohol-based solution that's in a plastic container in a vehicle 24/7. The heat of the interior or trunk of a vehicle has been known to soften and crack hand sanitizer bottles over time, allowing for the solution to leak everywhere. In all cases, take the bottle(s) out of the vehicle when you get home.

Now that we're moving into spring, I'd also think the heat in most vehicle interiors would also accelerate the breakdown of bleach back to salt water.

 

[statsman]

Now that we're moving into spring, I'd also think the heat in most vehicle interiors would also accelerate the breakdown of bleach back to salt water.

That and reduce the gel component of retail hand sanitizers to a watery consistency, making them far less effective as the gel is required to keep the alcohol in place for a sufficient period of time. I can't find it online, but I thought I also read to not let alcohol-based hand sanitizer exceed 105 degrees F.

 

[NW-Bound]

I found the below to be an interesting read.

Dakin Solution (Sodium Hypochlorite)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK507916/

Thanks for the link. It's the first reference I see that calls the solution by the name Dakin fluid or Carrel-Dakin.

And it was in use in WWI, and still remains in use today.

 

[NW-Bound]

Regarding the deterioration of the solution, I went to my car and retrieved the little 4-oz. bottle I left there, in order to check it. The last time I used it when going out was perhaps 3 days ago.

I do not have anything to measure its potency, but just by pouring it on to my palm and smelling it, the chlorine smell has diminished quite a bit.

From now on, I will make a new solution each time I go out. It's easy to pour a bit of bleach right into that bitty plastic bottle, then add water to mix. It takes only a couple of minutes to make a little vial. There's no need to make more than a couple of tablespoons, instead the whole vial. And it is quite OK to err on the stronger side. There's no need to measure exactly if I make it stronger.

And a stronger solution can last for a couple of days, particularly as I will bring the vial inside instead of leaving it in the car, from this point on.

 

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
But now that we actually have the CDC guide, we know the end result. But that doesn't change the process of questioning it until we have that information, which was what was being done here. Prudently, IMO.

Well, I guess that's one way to sugarcoat it.

Sugarcoat what?

The purpose of these threads is to provide good information to people. Getting from an initial suggestion to a something with some credibility and references is a process. The process is the same regardless the outcome - what does "sugarcoating" have to do with anything?

-ERD50

 

[Gumby]

Whatever you say, Sparky.

 

[NW-Bound]

While on the topic of bleach, I will share a useful tip with you, this time having nothing to do with the virus.

I had some ugly grout lines in the bathroom with black mold, in the tiles surrounding the tub. I had tried everything from bleach to vinegar, Lysol, tile cleaner, etc..., using a tooth brush to scrub the solution into the grout. It helped a bit, but the result was not worth the effort I put into it.

I got so disgusted, and thought that the only way to get rid of the eyesores was to remodel. Yea, have a contractor chip the tiles out, and remodel the bathroom at the same time. My wife was enthusiastic with the idea, and said we also needed new faucets, and this and that. I did not mind spending the money, but was not so eager about having workers in the home tearing things out making a mess. This was before the virus fiasco. My bathroom was fine as is, except for the faucets. And the moldy grout lines, of course.

I thought about this for a bit. How could this mold stand up to pure bleach? It was not possible. It was like you hit someone on the head with a sledge hammer, and he was impervious to it.

Then, it occurred to me. The mold had grown into the porous cement of the grout lines. For bleach to reach it, I needed to have standing bleach on it, for the bleach to soak in. But how do I do this on a vertical surface?

A bulb went off in my head. I took a sheet of kitchen paper towel, and cut it into strips of 1/4" wide. I then dipped the strips in pure unadulterated bleach, and applied it on the grout lines. You might want to wear latex gloves when working with pure bleach, but I was a brute, and I worked fast. I had to be fast anyway, as the bleach caused the paper to come apart quickly. The wet paper strips adhered very well over the grout lines. I pressed down on the paper over the grout, making sure there was no bubble. Then, I let it sit overnight.

The next morning, the 1st thing I did was to peel off the paper strips to inspect the results.

Wholly Molly! Very little elbow grease, and the results were so astounding. No sign of mold at all! I wished I had taken before/after photos, but I was so anxious to try out the idea.

Now, you can use entire sheets of paper towel, because paper towel is cheap, and so is bleach. However, application of that is going to be harder, I think.

Try this. You will be so glad to get great results for so little work. The mold has not come back in 2 months, but when it does, I will know what to do.

PS. I also replaced the faucets. My wife is now happy, and says she does not need to remodel anymore.