Is a dilute bleach solution a satisfactory hand cleaner for COVID?

[Running_Man]

THE CDC reccomends bleach as a sanitizer
https://www.cdc.gov/disasters/bleach.html
CDC formula for making hand sanitizer from bleach

https://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/pdf/2.6-percent-chlorine-bleach-solution.pdf

 

[Spock]

I don't use a cart when grocery shopping. I bring my own bags. I am not hoarding nor stocking up on anything, so I have plenty of capacity for the items that I wish to buy.

And the latest turn of events: Officials are recommending people stop using reusable bags as they absorb liquids from the checkout conveyor and are unsanitary. Single use disposable bags are more hygienic.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/foodanddr...ng-bags-amid-coronavirus-outbreak/ar-BB11xNT1

 

[savory]

I apologize if I missed this in the long discussion. The CDC has issued instructions for using bleach as a hand sanitizer. I think it was during Ebola, before the Coronavirus.

But bleach is a well known sanitizer. It has its downsides since it is irritating on hands and can bleach darker skin. But as a surface and hand sanitizer, with proper contact time at the right concentration works as a sanitizer. But, like all sanitizers, it is time related so it should air dry.

https://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/pdf/making-hand-washing-solution-bleach-hth.pdf

I’m going to trust the advice of the world’s leading scientists and doctor’s over one random guy on the internet. You have both been asked repeatedly to find one article suggesting that bleach and water is an acceptable alternative for hand sanitation and have both failed to do so.

We are all facing a shortage of hand sanitizer in this country. And yes, even aloe Vera gel and isopropyl alcohol are in short supply so making the hand sanitizer yourself is not currently an option. So everyone is looking for an alternative solution.

So we have one person on this forum who has proposed an alternate solution. When asked to provide evidence it works he has come up with nothing. When asked to find any other person on the internet who has suggested this is a valid solution, he has come up with nothing.

I really don’t know what else to say here. As I said before, if he wants to use this solution it’s his choice. But posting anything that suggests this is an effective and safe alternative without providing evidence is dangerous and reckless and should not be supported on this forum.

 

[statsman]

I apologize if I missed this in the long discussion. The CDC has issued instructions for using bleach as a hand sanitizer. I think it was during Ebola, before the Coronavirus.

But bleach is a well known sanitizer. It has its downsides since it is irritating on hands and can bleach darker skin. But as a surface and hand sanitizer, with proper contact time at the right concentration works as a sanitizer. But, like all sanitizers, it is time related so it should air dry.

https://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/pdf/making-hand-washing-solution-bleach-hth.pdf

The instructions, for Ebola control, are for a hand *washing* solution, not for hand sanitizing. I fail to see the safety issues using this type of hand washing solution in public. If you are at home and feel you've encountered a COVID-19 situation, have at it, although I don't know why someone wouldn't just use soap and water at home.

 

[statsman]

We know that isopropyl alcohol is effective at killing COVID-19. This has been backed up by numerous studies. The reason hand sanitizer is effective is because it is mixed with aloe Vera gel. The gel makes the liquid thick enough that it stays on our hands long enough for us to rub it around for 15-20 seconds. If we just poured pure alcohol on our hands it would either spill or evaporate too quickly to be effective.

Not wanting to go off on a tangent, I would be leery about using isopropyl alcohol in a hand sanitizer mix for an extended period of time. I would have concerns about the alcohol's toxicity issues regarding constant contact with the skin. It's the main reason why ethyl alcohol is used in manufactured hand sanitizers instead of isopropyl alcohol.

For short-term use, it's probably okay. But at some point when we return to a normal life (or at least one that approaches it), regular and constant use of a hand sanitizer made with isopropyl alcohol should be discouraged.

 

[EastWest Gal]

And the latest turn of events: Officials are recommending people stop using reusable bags as they absorb liquids from the checkout conveyor and are unsanitary. Single use disposable bags are more hygienic.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/foodanddr...ng-bags-amid-coronavirus-outbreak/ar-BB11xNT1

Well this is getting more than ridiculous. The most important surfaces to sanitize are the things our hands touch. Next we will be told not to walk on any floors or use shopping carts, ever.

I don't use the conveyor belt at all. I do a scan as I go, with a hand held scanner. Put it directly in my bag. At check-out, My bags never leave the cart. My hands do not touch any screens, using Apple pay or a no touch credit card. I wipe down the scanner and the shopping cart handle before and after use.

There should not be any liquids on the checkout conveyor! The cashiers are probably wiping down frequently sanitizing (I hope, but don't know). Any store that leaves liquids on the checkout conveyor belt is not a store I would visit again.

I'm guessing these "officials" are not the ones in the family doing the grocery shopping.

 

[MissMolly]

Well this is getting more than ridiculous. The most important surfaces to sanitize are the things our hands touch. Next we will be told not to walk on any floors or use shopping carts, ever.

I don't use the conveyor belt at all. I do a scan as I go, with a hand held scanner. Put it directly in my bag. At check-out, My bags never leave the cart. My hands do not touch any screens, using Apple pay or a no touch credit card. I wipe down the scanner and the shopping cart handle before and after use.

There should not be any liquids on the checkout conveyor! The cashiers are probably wiping down frequently sanitizing (I hope, but don't know). Any store that leaves liquids on the checkout conveyor belt is not a store I would visit again.

I'm guessing these "officials" are not the ones in the family doing the grocery shopping.

Scan as you go would be a great option and I wish they would implement that everywhere. That is not an option where I shop

 

[ERD50]

The common sense answer is that if someone tells you a 9mm pistol round will stop a charging warthog (or whatever) they shouldn't have to tell you that a 12 ga. shotgun slug will also do it. In this case, soap and water works fine and doesn't have the unpleasant side effect of bleach. There is no need to go with something stronger (i.e, bleach) when the soap will do.

See Ready's post #62. Sure, it's common sense that bleach is stronger, but there are all those other issues.

But now that we actually have the CDC guide, we know the end result. But that doen't change the process of questioning it until we have that information, which was what was being done here. Prudently, IMO.

I was solidly attacked, while I was looking for info to link. ... .

I don't think you were being "attacked". People just questioned this - you know as well as anyone there is a lot of bad info floating around. I think it was prudent to look for something from a respected source, rather than speculation.

The issue here is what to do when you do not have soap and water, nor can get hand sanitizer.

What do you do to disinfect the shopping cart handle when everything is sold out? Use dilute bleach.

I don't understand how carrying dilute bleach for hand washing is any easier than carrying soap and water. I'd rather have soap/water and a few towels in my car (I do), than dilute bleach. Some of us hate the smell of bleach anyhow. At those dilutions, is there a risk of staining clothes or car carpet?

I can see carrying a plastic bag with some paper towels soaked in dilute bleach, for things like shopping cart handles, as you mention. We had the info on bleach for hard surfaces way back in this thread, that was accepted procedure all along.

-ERD50

 

[audreyh1]

My reusable bags don’t go on the conveyer belt. We take them around or leave in cart at Costco, and usually do our own packing.

 

[Ready]

See Ready's post #62. Sure, it's common sense that bleach is stronger, but there are all those other issues.

But now that we actually have the CDC guide, we know the end result. But that doen't change the process of questioning it until we have that information, which was what was being done here. Prudently, IMO.


I don't think you were being "attacked". People just questioned this - you know as well as anyone there is a lot of bad info floating around. I think it was prudent to look for something from a respected source, rather than speculation.



I don't understand how carrying dilute bleach for hand washing is any easier than carrying soap and water. I'd rather have soap/water and a few towels in my car (I do), than dilute bleach. Some of us hate the smell of bleach anyhow. At those dilutions, is there a risk of staining clothes or car carpet?

I can see carrying a plastic bag with some paper towels soaked in dilute bleach, for things like shopping cart handles, as you mention. We had the info on bleach for hard surfaces way back in this thread, that was accepted procedure all along.

-ERD50

I have a couple of thoughts on this:

1) The CDC says to use this solution only when hand soap and/or alcohol based sanitizer is not available. And it makes no statement about how long you have to keep the solution on your hands for it to be effective. It references this for EBOLA, not COVID-19.

2) It states that you have to discard the solution every day and make a fresh batch.

3) It warns that repeated use can irritate the skin.

So instead of carrying a large bottle of water and some regular hand soap in your car, you are going to mix a fresh batch of bleach solution every single day? Why?

 

[Gumby]

But now that we actually have the CDC guide, we know the end result. But that doen't change the process of questioning it until we have that information, which was what was being done here. Prudently, IMO.

Well, I guess that's one way to sugarcoat it.

 

[NW-Bound]

Now that everyone seems to calm down, and perhaps actually reads other people's posts, I will try to answer all the questions above. I am not a medical expert, but I read enough to gather the info needed.

First of all, this was called the novel coronavirus not too long ago. Novel means new. The official name for it is now SARS-Cov-2. The disease it causes is called COVID-19. We use the two interchangeably, but I don't think it causes any confusion.

Now, the SARS-Cov-2 has not been officially tested against any disinfectant. In fact, if we read the literature very carefully, you will see that experts say that they base their recommendation on the SARS-CoV, which caused an outbreak in 2003. They assume that what applies to the old SARS-CoV virus will extend to this SARS-Cov-2.

More to follow...

 

[LOL!]

I want to know if you brought your mother some soap.

 

[NW-Bound]

Searching the Web, I found many medical papers on how to kill the SARS-CoV. They found out that it is a "wimpy" virus, and one paper even said that a 5-ppm sodium hypochlorite solution killed it, but it took a few minutes. I was astounded when I read that, because that's my pool water.

Another thing worth mentioning here is that I read that many scary virus, Ebola included, are also wimpy outside of the human body and can be killed rather easily.

More to follow...

 

[NW-Bound]

I want to know if you brought your mother some soap.

She has plenty of soap. As she cannot buy hand sanitizer, I want her to not have to carry a pail of water and soap when she leaves the home.

I was surprised to learn she used no bleach in washing her clothes. She's very picky about her clothes, and I think she is afraid it would ruin her clothes. Hence, she has no bleach. And I don't want her to make a trip to the store just for that.

 

[NW-Bound]

Now, CDC recommends the use of soap and water. And this makes sense because of these reasons:

1) Wimpy virus can be killed by soap. Everyone has soap. However, you have to do it for 20 seconds. Soap is not as strong as alcohol, and nowhere as potent as sodium chlorite.

2) Soap and water wash away grease, dirt, including dirt under the fingernail. A strong disinfectant is of no use, if it does not reach the virus covered by grease or dirt.

More to follow...

 

[NW-Bound]

Again, as people assume the SARS-CoV-2 has similar responses to disinfectants as the old SARS-CoV virus, one can search medical literature to see what kills the SARS-CoV virus.

There are many, many medical papers comparing different disinfectants. I am interested in the cheapo sodium hypochlorite only, and see that most test the SARS-CoV virus against a 0.1% solution, although one paper even tried the 5-ppm solution as I mentioned earlier.

I would not use my pool water. I can afford more chlorine than that. Besides there's another effect which I will mention later, and that will also answer a very valid question that was brought up, regarding the aging effect of the solution (does it have to be prepared daily?).

More to follow...

 

[NW-Bound]

This whole thread was spun off from another thread, when a heated debate that I totally did not expect arose. Posters brought up these main questions or problems.

1) Does a bleach solution kill the virus?

2) What concentration is needed?

3) Even if it kills the virus, it may be harmful to the skin. The word dangerous was even used.

4) If it really works, why has the CDC not recommended it?

5) And now, even as it turns out that the CDC does recommend it for Ebola, how well is it going to work on the SARS-CoV-2?

6) Alcohol works better, when mixed with a gel.

7) CDC recommends making a fresh solution each day. This is cumbersome.

8) It is easier to carry a pail of water and soap when going shopping.

I will try to answer these questions.

More to follow...

 

[CardsFan]

I only started following this discussion after it was spun off from the other thread, but I am amazed it is still going.

Of course bleach is a good disinfectant. And NW has provided more than enough references to confirm. I think some here are arguing for the sake of arguing.

And for those arguing about the strength and exposure time, isn't something better than nothing? There are no 100% guarantees in real life (except the proverbial death and taxes).

Just my 2 cents. Carry on.

 

[NW-Bound]

1) Does a bleach solution kill the virus?

2) What concentration is needed?

Yes, cheap sodium hypochlorite kills nearly everything. Well, not everything but certainly the wimpy virus like Ebola and the SARS-CoV, and we assume the SARS-CoV-2 too. I was surprised to learn that some parasites are tougher to kill than many virus.

Many papers test a 0.1% solution when they test the SARS-CoV. I was surprised to see CDC using 0.05% on Ebola. Perhaps the 0.1% is just a good round number.

I still need to find that 5-ppm paper, but perhaps the author just wanted to see survivability of the SARS-CoV virus in swimming pools. It's not a recommendation for disinfecting. But it proves that the virus is wimpy.

I don't think there is anything magic about these numbers. You can go stronger, and it helps, not hurts. It's not like medicine you take internally, whose dosage has to be precise. Actually, many drugs, particularly over-the-counter types, give doctors a lot of leeway to increase/decrease the dosage by feel.

If the solution is strong, it kills faster. If it is weaker, such as down to 5-ppm, it kills slower. In this case, I want to err on the high side to be safe.

But ah, too strong a solution can hurt your skin. More on this later...

 

[NW-Bound]

I only started following this discussion after it was spun off from the other thread, but I am amazed it is still going.

Of course bleach is a good disinfectant. And NW has provided more than enough references to confirm. I think some here are arguing for the sake of arguing.

And for those arguing about the strength and exposure time, isn't something better than nothing? There are no 100% guarantees in real life (except the proverbial death and taxes).

Just my 2 cents. Carry on.

As long as people raise reasonable questions, I like to answer them, because I have to think harder, and to put down logical arguments.

Some of the later questions are very valid.

I will be back after a while. I need to go out to the yard to do some work. Again, these questions are good, and I want to answer them.

 

[LOL!]

Why would one need a bucket of water to use soap, but not to use bleach?

I use soap camping with maybe a tablespoon of water for my hands. After lots of rubbing I either fling my hands dry or wipe them dry on my pants. I don't care if I get residual soap on a door knob or pretty much anything else.

One can also buy liquid soap and leave it in the car.

I imagine that with a bleach solution one might do the same thing except they might worry about causing a stain on their clothes if they wiped off the wetness due to bleaching colors out. I would not worry about any stain on my clothes with soap.

 

[statsman]

I would also be careful about leaving any bleach or alcohol-based solution that's in a plastic container in a vehicle 24/7. The heat of the interior or trunk of a vehicle has been known to soften and crack hand sanitizer bottles over time, allowing for the solution to leak everywhere. In all cases, take the bottle(s) out of the vehicle when you get home.

 

[Gumby]

I would also be careful about leaving any bleach or alcohol-based solution that's in a plastic container in a vehicle 24/7. The heat of the interior or trunk of a vehicle has been known to soften and crack hand sanitizer bottles over time, allowing for the solution to leak everywhere. In all cases, take the bottle(s) out of the vehicle when you get home.

Good point. I noticed that the sanitizer thins considerably after the car has been parked in the sun for a while.

 

[NW-Bound]

3) Even if it kills the virus, it may be harmful to the skin. The word dangerous was even used.

Now if we can make the same assumption as experts do, that is the current SARS-Cov-2 virus is susceptible to the same bleach solution as the 2003 SARS-Cov virus has been tested against, can we use it on hands?

Maybe it works on surfaces and inanimate objects, but there's something on human skin that prevents it from working as well? Maybe it works but harms the skin?

It is so easy to find papers touting the potent killing effect of sodium hypochlrorite on the coronavirus, but I had to look for specific papers saying that its germicide property is not lost when applied to human skin, and also that it does not hurt the hand.

I know it does not hurt the hand, having used it to wash clothes and also disinfect bathrooms and been in momentary contact to full-strength bleach, let alone a dilute solution. I mentioned earlier that pool owners are commonly in contact with calcium hypochlorite in granulated solid form and I have not heard of anyone getting burn from it. The dilute solution? Meh. Any housewife can tell you this.

But about the solution somehow loses its virus-killing property on human skin, that info I found in the CDC slide that I linked to earlier to recommend it for Ebola. Many subsequent posters independently found it and posted it too. CDC even uses 0.05% solution instead of 0.1%. That's very very dilute.

And so, CDC has confirmed that the dilute solution of sodium hypochlorite can be used to sanitize hands.

More to follow...