landlord seeking help

[VFK57]

This advice might be sound where *you* live but it wouldn't fly in a lot of places for at least a couple of reasons. *THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE*

Not sure if your state is different but in California before you lease your property, you have a right to make a lease agreement where it is quite legal to set up rent (if it is higher then average, you may not have interest in the property) and set penalties for not paying it on time. Of course I cannot give a Legal advise so make a research on web or contact a lawyer.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

Not sure if your state is different but in California before you lease your property, you have a right to make a lease agreement where it is quite legal to set up rent (if it is higher then average, you may not have interest in the property) and set penalties for not paying it on time. Of course I cannot give a Legal advise so make a research on web or contact a lawyer.

Yes, parties are free to contract at will...but that comes with a LOT of caveats, especially in California. One of those caveats is unconscionability which your proposed terms would be good examples of even in my flyover state that favors landlords. Even the word "penalty" in a contract can raise eyebrows in many courts. Bottom line...if you want to draft your own lease, it would be wise to spend a couple hundred bucks to have a competent lawyer review it.

 

[OldShooter]

A guess totally unsupported by any data: The posts here stating that the OP should lower the hammer hard are from people who have never been landlords. Creating an extremely adversarial situation when the tenants are still in possession of the property is very risky for the property owner.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

A guess totally unsupported by any data: The posts here stating that the OP should lower the hammer hard are from people who have never been landlords. Creating an extremely adversarial situation when the tenants are still in possession of the property is very risky for the property owner.

x1000. My DW is involved in the management of 1000s of properties across 5 states and deals with pissed off owners who want to "hammer down" every day. Very often the results are less than pleasant. There is a reason we don't own any rental property.

 

[VFK57]

I am a landlord and tell you from my experience as well as at least two more (a friend and a relative) who are also landlords and we do use a Lease agreement. If rental market is strong you put penalties as you think is fare, nobody forces a potential renter to sign it - it is voluntary if they want the property. Of course if the renter market is weak, you would not do it but non payment of the rent will follow by eviction notice.

 

[Bruceski44]

I had a 6-page lease when I was an active landlord and it noted that any violation was grounds to terminate the lease. I could also terminate with one month's notice in writing after the first year. I had one eviction (in California) which I handled myself. The clerk of the court even complimented me on my filing. My "secret" was I used Nolo Press' (www.nolo.com) excellent handbooks on landlording. They kept me on solid legal ground and out of trouble. Another "secret" was I always acted nice to the tenants, but never friendly. Always professional. The OP began to fail when it was more important to him to be a nice guy than it was to be a business owner.

All of our tenants thought I was rich and used this to justify their attempts to take advantage of me. I took no nonsense and most of the tenants stayed on for several years. Just like raising children: set the ground rules (the lease) and never let them cross the line. Any missed payment (by the 5th of the month) prompted my immediate phone call and a 3-day notice to pay or vacate if necessary.

Many of the posts (mine included) describe what the OP should have done when this all started. Now that the bad behavior is ingrained and a precedent has been set, it's hard to say what needs to happen to get out of it. But IMO a courteous, professional, tough stance is needed to get back on track. Do you think you can offer cash for the keys back? I haven't read the entire thread, so excuse me if that's not appropriate. These stories always disappoint me, because people want to be nice, but landlords must be professional.

 

[nancyfrank232]

These stories always disappoint me, because people want to be nice, but landlords must be professional.

+1 well said

Completely agree

 

[Octogirl]

Landlord seeking help

I agree with Starsky that "Exceptions created expectations."



We are landlords of a SFH as are several of my family members. We have been fortunate with current tenants. However, there was a time early on when tenants were unhappy about an incomplete repair (as were we -) and the husband said "wife wants to leave".



At first, we were concerned (oh no - we will have to find new tenants) but realized - we can not allow this threat to be an expectation. So we said - Fine, if you want to leave - go - we'll allow you out of lease.

They never left and never said it again.
PS They pay on time every month.



Find a way to reset expectations for on time rent payment !

 

[Senator]

Not sure if your state is different but in California before you lease your property, you have a right to make a lease agreement where it is quite legal to set up rent (if it is higher then average, you may not have interest in the property) and set penalties for not paying it on time. Of course I cannot give a Legal advise so make a research on web or contact a lawyer.

Even if there is no limit on late fees, a tenant taking someone to court would lose if the late fees are excessive. Paying rent late, and doing it over a few months, negates the landlord's ability to evict over late rents, as a precedence has been set. And you cannot evict for not paying late fees.

In MN, I can charge 8% for late fees, by statute.

 

[workmyfingerstothebone]

. Paying rent late, and doing it over a few months, negates the landlord's ability to evict over late rents, as a precedence has been set.

I'm not a lawyer but this doesn't sound correct, legally.
Meeting with one today so I'll ask him the question.

 

[workmyfingerstothebone]

I would like to state that I don't mind being a landlord.
In fact I will try to get more rentals in the future.
This is my first one and having little issues up till now does not scare me off.
Ten years with one tenant, I consider a success.


As far as possibly losing money on evicting, I'll say I lost 10K in a day being in the market on multiple occasions this year alone.
Probably 10's of thousands. But that's the market, some days you make money some days you don't.


So I have learned a lesson in land lording, probably a few more to come,
but overall I'll stick with it.


There's risk in all investments.

 

[BeachOrCity]

I'm not a lawyer but this doesn't sound correct, legally.
Meeting with one today so I'll ask him the question.

Varies by state, but in general if at the time you try to evict they are "caught up" on rent you won't be able to evict no matter how late they were in the past.

You have known these people for a long time as their landlord. Sometimes it makes the most sense to use a light touch (such as telling them you are not renewing lease) before the heavy handed (evict) approach.

 

[workmyfingerstothebone]

Varies by state, but in general if at the time you try to evict they are "caught up" on rent you won't be able to evict no matter how late they were in the past.

You have known these people for a long time as their landlord. Sometimes it makes the most sense to use a light touch (such as telling them you are not renewing lease) before the heavy handed (evict) approach.

For a m2m rental is a 60 day notice to vacate the same as a non-renewal for a lease?
The 3 day notice to pay to quit was just to have rent paid. No eviction if they paid on the 1st.

The 60 day notice was my equivalent of a non-renewal.
If there is a better way to do this i am all for it.
The prior month I verbally stated no more late rent, rent due on the first.



Maybe I should have gotten it in writing.

 

[nancyfrank232]

Verbal is irrelevant

This thread is a great endorsement for using professional property management

 

[SmallCityDave]

Ducky911 has some good points you may want to look at his recommendations again.



I've been a landlord for 15+ years with 8 properties, one of my "favorite" tenants was one that almost always paid late the first few months were a little stressful but after that it was nice getting an extra $150-200 for nothing.


Look at this as a business and don't get your feelings involved, every time I have a tenant move out it costs me a minimum of $1000 between down time and repairs.


If I were in your shoes I would ask them if they wanted to stay if they did I would rescind the 60 day notice and have them sign a new month to month lease and let them know the rent is going up by $100 and so are the late fees(as long as they are taking care of the property).



Most people here either don't have rentals or couldn't handle being a landlord so be careful with the advice that you act on.

 

[BeachOrCity]

For a m2m rental is a 60 day notice to vacate the same as a non-renewal for a lease?
The 3 day notice to pay to quit was just to have rent paid. No eviction if they paid on the 1st.

The 60 day notice was my equivalent of a non-renewal.
If there is a better way to do this i am all for it.
The prior month I verbally stated no more late rent, rent due on the first.



Maybe I should have gotten it in writing.

Again, Varies by state AND municipality. I know squat about CA.
My state does not allow ending even a m2m lease unless certain conditions are met (owner moving back in, drug arrest at property, etc); BUT it does allow raising the rent if the unit is not subject to rent control.

When you give notice, you should give notice multiple ways incl one that is provable (certified US mail). Again, some places specify how you have to do this. In my state formal notice has to include a spanish version.

You don't have to have a lawyer, DO this, but IMHO you are exposing yourself to unneeded risk if you don't pay for some legal advice before YOU DO this.

(And see my other post about maybe a light handed approach. It seems like you are sending the tenant mixed signals "don't pay late anymore" while at the same time you are considering eviction).

Do you want them to stay (if they start paying on time) or not?

 

[ponyboy]

It amazes me how people become "entitled" when a good deed is done for them.

They havent become entitled. You've trained them to become this way. After the 1st time they were late, you should have been firm with them, and you werent. No one to blame but yourself.

Like others said, pay someone else to manage your property. That way, you wont have to deal with things like this.

 

[workmyfingerstothebone]

Ducky911 has some good points you may want to look at his recommendations again.



I've been a landlord for 15+ years with 8 properties, one of my "favorite" tenants was one that almost always paid late the first few months were a little stressful but after that it was nice getting an extra $150-200 for nothing.


Look at this as a business and don't get your feelings involved, every time I have a tenant move out it costs me a minimum of $1000 between down time and repairs.


If I were in your shoes I would ask them if they wanted to stay if they did I would rescind the 60 day notice and have them sign a new month to month lease and let them know the rent is going up by $100 and so are the late fees(as long as they are taking care of the property).



Most people here either don't have rentals or couldn't handle being a landlord so be careful with the advice that you act on.

Yes, lots of advice.

I'll have a better feel for this after discussing with attorney.

No charge for initial consultation.

 

[The Cosmic Avenger]

They havent become entitled. You've trained them to become this way. After the 1st time they were late, you should have been firm with them, and you werent. No one to blame but yourself.

Think about it this way, workmyfingerstothebone: you know the saying "actions speak louder than words"? You were telling them with your words that you wanted the rent on time, but you were telling them with your actions that you would accept it late, with consequences that they could live with. I've had to work hard at learning this lesson, because I'm very much a "say what you mean, mean what you say" kind of person, so I used to find it baffling when I would say there would be consequences and people protested. Managing the expectations of others is a complicated, messy pain, but in the end it can save you a LOT of time, money, and grief.


Good luck, workmyfingerstothebone!

 

[Arizona1]

Just raise the late fee to the point your happy when they are late. I had a hundred twenty some rentals at one time and my late fee was 20%. It was the same approach I used when dealing with smokers. In 1996 I bought Philip Morris stock so the smoke didn’t bother me as much. Unfortunately most of those smokers have died from lung cancer by now.

 

[FinBiz]

Landlording is a business. In 2014, I sold a commercial property and needed to find 1031 exchange possibilities. What I learned in talking to potential sellers is that very few ran their properties like a business.

I bought 10 properties in a short period of time. I knew immediately that a couple tenants would need to leave. I gave one Tenant $300 cash for keys. The other I went through the legal process. Now, I’m very particular (legally) about who I accept. Included in my move-in package is a sample eviction notice which they must initial. The new tenant and I usually have a little laugh, but I tell them that if they don’t pay by the 5th the notice will be on their front door on the 6th … so don’t call yelling and asking what it is! This is as much psychological as anything. Now, I rarely have a late pay. If I do, the late payment is included … no questions asked. Hey, that’s how large apartment complexes are managed. Us small guys have a business too. Sad stories don’t work with me, “my car’s transmission is out” doesn’t work. I’m not their bank but I am very fair and equal to all tenants. Unit repairs are usually made within 24 hours if possible and landscaping kept in “I love my place” condition. I even try to get HVAC units repaired on the weekend if weather is miserable. I want the type tenant who respects property and pays rent on time.

I’m guessing you’ve gone so far with this tenant that you may need a new one to get away from the frustrations you mentioned, but that’s your call. Oh, and I only except payments via direct deposit as a policy for new tenants. So, I don’t deal with the “I mailed it last week” either. Lastly, it's best to keep the landlord-tenant relationship on a cordial business -like relationship. That’s my best advice.

 

[ncbill]

IMHO people might want to check their state laws before recommending such high late fees.

IIRC here late fee is limited to $20, no interest charges allowed.

 

[Senator]

Landlording is a business. In 2014, I sold a commercial property and needed to find 1031 exchange possibilities. What I learned in talking to potential sellers is that very few ran their properties like a business.

I bought 10 properties in a short period of time. I knew immediately that a couple tenants would need to leave. I gave one Tenant $300 cash for keys. The other I went through the legal process. Now, I’m very particular (legally) about who I accept. Included in my move-in package is a sample eviction notice which they must initial. The new tenant and I usually have a little laugh, but I tell them that if they don’t pay by the 5th the notice will be on their front door on the 6th … so don’t call yelling and asking what it is! This is as much psychological as anything. Now, I rarely have a late pay. If I do, the late payment is included … no questions asked. Hey, that’s how large apartment complexes are managed. Us small guys have a business too. Sad stories don’t work with me, “my car’s transmission is out” doesn’t work. I’m not their bank but I am very fair and equal to all tenants. Unit repairs are usually made within 24 hours if possible and landscaping kept in “I love my place” condition. I even try to get HVAC units repaired on the weekend if weather is miserable. I want the type tenant who respects property and pays rent on time.

I’m guessing you’ve gone so far with this tenant that you may need a new one to get away from the frustrations you mentioned, but that’s your call. Oh, and I only except payments via direct deposit as a policy for new tenants. So, I don’t deal with the “I mailed it last week” either. Lastly, it's best to keep the landlord-tenant relationship on a cordial business -like relationship. That’s my best advice.

Exactly. In 2009 I closed on a 4-plex on a Friday, on Monday AM I file two evictions.

One of the evictions was a woman with stage-4 terminal cancer. She got the boot, and was dead within six months.

 

[pb4uski]

.... One of the evictions was a woman with stage-4 terminal cancer. She got the boot, and was dead within six months.

Something to brag about, eh?

 

[Senator]

Something to brag about, eh?

If you are not prepared to do that, you are not prepared to be a landlord.

It doesn't bother me a bit. It's not my job to provide free rent to anyone.

I am getting ready to kick a single mom out of an apartment because she cannot control her 10-year old kid. Maybe you want to help her with moving costs and a deposit at the new place?