landlord seeking help

[Calico]

Exactly. In 2009 I closed on a 4-plex on a Friday, on Monday AM I file two evictions.

One of the evictions was a woman with stage-4 terminal cancer. She got the boot, and was dead within six months.

This post makes me physically sick to my stomach.

 

[Senator]

This post makes me physically sick to my stomach.

It's too bad you were not there, you could have provided the $4K that she was behind in rent.

How much have you donated to any worthy causes recently?

My recommendation to you is to never be a landlord.

 

[workmyfingerstothebone]

@Senator


Wow, those are some tough decisions you made.
It is an unfortunate part of the job.


Being a LL, I understand where you are coming from.
Our tenants were almost 30 days late with another months rent almost due.
If they don't pay then it's a minimum of 2 months to get them out.

So, that's almost 5K, probably closer to 6K because it would more likely to take over 2 months to move them out.
And that does not include the court costs.


I wonder how many renters can take a 6K hit to their bottom line?

 

[stephenson]

Have a few rentals - have a rental company and watch them.

If they have consistent late issue, they charge fee ... we benefit. If the tenant starts becoming inconsistent, they are history.

 

[pb4uski]

If you are not prepared to do that, you are not prepared to be a landlord. ...

Actually I am a landlord. And I agree that you need to be consistent in addressing tenants who don't pay, but in the circumstances that you described I wouldn't be as gleeful about it as you seem to be.

 

[Senator]

Actually I am a landlord. And I agree that you need to be consistent in addressing tenants who don't pay, but in the circumstances that you described I wouldn't be as gleeful about it as you seem to be.

It's just part of the job. My mortgage company doesn't give me a break. My taxes are not lowered for a health issue of my tenant. And fair housing laws require everyone to be treated the same, health issues or not.

But I get your point. I get upset with Drs and nurses that want to be paid when they work with sick people too. Where is their compassion?

 

[bmcgonig]

It's just part of the job. My mortgage company doesn't give me a break. My taxes are not lowered for a health issue of my tenant. And fair housing laws require everyone to be treated the same, health issues or not.

But I get your point. I get upset with Drs and nurses that want to be paid when they work with sick people too. Where is their compassion?

You're smart. You're a successful landlord. You're a jerk too.

 

[pb4uski]

^^^^ A tad harsh but I get your drift.

 

[JDARNELL]

You learn over time what to do and not do. And yes overtime you get more
Black and white. It is a business not a charity. Now I have done more than my fair share of charity but I risk my capital and invest my time for my tribe no one else’s. And if I screw up I step up.

 

[BeachOrCity]

Actually I am a landlord. And I agree that you need to be consistent in addressing tenants who don't pay, but in the circumstances that you described I wouldn't be as gleeful about it as you seem to be.

My sentiments as well.

 

[Oakster]

Been a landlord of a SFH for 10 years, same tenant since I started.

Renters are continually late on the rent, probably 7 out of the last 12 months.

They do pay but sometimes it's at the end of the month, which then causes them to be late the next month and so on....

Overall decent tenants but they continually seem to have "hard" times which effect paying rent on time.

I've assisted by returning half their rent deposit and using their security deposit as rent payment one month, which they're paying back each month.

Also offered a half month rent for the holidays once hoping this would get them back on their feet.

Only minimal rent increases each year, which should be helping them out.

The rental is about $300/month below market which I could charge tomorrow and get.

So I've painted a nice picture of myself. But am I really....

I issued a 3 day notice to quit or pay rent on the first of the month as I'm done chasing after the rent each month.

But then again, maybe that's just part of the job.

I also issued a 60 notice to vacate the property.
Renters paid the rent so I rescinded the 3 day notice.
But still kept the 60 in effect.

I believe I've been fair but listening to the renters one would not think so.

One comment was "sure, we are late but we pay every month and don't complain about the late fee".
This comment caught me off guard.
Is their an appropriate amount of "lateness" allowed before removing tenants?
Overall I like the tenants (been their 10 years) and if not for chasing after the rent monthly I would still rent to them.

I wonder if I used overkill by issuing a 60 notice to vacate?

So, asking renters and landlords to chime in.



Am i a horrible landlord who should rescind the 60 day notice or am I gullible as hell?


Thanks for any input ..... solutions or remedies....

It is one of the challenges with being a landlord for sure. It is amazing to have long term tenants that take care of your property of that time. I would be hesitant to let that go. In this situation, much like raising children, what you have allowed to be acceptable is what they view as normal. In a tough love sort of message, half of the responsibility lies with you for this long term situation.

My suggestion, if it aligns with your lease, is to meet with them and talk to them. Admit that half the responsibility if yours for allowing it. Tell them it stops now, and that termination of their lease will happen when to stop meeting the payment obligations. They can begin meeting the rent deadline as per the lease/agreement and stay, or they can move out now and go to another location without any hard feelings. The choice is theirs, but you are ending the late payment being acceptable.

You should follow your lease strictly, and keep your rent close to current value (I would discount rent for a reliable tenant that cares for your property, that is a valuable thing to have). Be a great landlord by fixing problems and providing good service as per the agreement, but the require timley payment of rent etc,.

 

[teachme]

You've been an enabler long enough, time to get new tenants.

Encourage you to use that increase in rent to hire a good management company that will deal with tenants directly and encourage tenants adhere to contract terms.

 

[Bamaman]

State Laws are very lax when it comes to rentee/lessees. In our state, you have to have s a demand letter for payment giving them reasonable days to pay up--including late charges. Then you file a notice with circuit court, have the individuals served a summons and give them their day in court. Then the judge gives a judgement, and gives them a couple of weeks to vacate the premises. Only then will the sheriff's deputy come to the premises and escort them out. You have to have movers on the spot to move their stuff to the curb. No lawyer is required, however it's a $320 cost of court fees. And if you're in California, they'll really screw you.

 

[Senator]

State Laws are very lax when it comes to rentee/lessees. In our state, you have to have s a demand letter for payment giving them reasonable days to pay up--including late charges. Then you file a notice with circuit court, have the individuals served a summons and give them their day in court. Then the judge gives a judgement, and gives them a couple of weeks to vacate the premises. Only then will the sheriff's deputy come to the premises and escort them out. You have to have movers on the spot to move their stuff to the curb. No lawyer is required, however it's a $320 cost of court fees. And if you're in California, they'll really screw you.

An eviction in MN is $320 for Court Fees, plus the cost of service. If you are successful, you have to hold belongings for 28 days.

If you are incorporated, like I am, you need an attorney, and it goes like this.

Court Fees $320
Cost of Service $100
Attorney Fees $500
Vacancy $2,500+ (2-3 months) It takes a month to get them out, and good tenants look 6-8 weeks out for a new place. My rents are ~$1,200.

Total $3,420.

Plus Storage, repairs and turnover costs. Add in another $1,580 at a minimum. It becomes $5,000+ easy.

Most people are not successful landlords as they are not competent enough to do it. If they were competent, they would be successful. It really is a cookie-cutter approach. It has to be to be legal.

I do not rent to low credit scoring tenants. I do not rent to low income tenants, I do not rent to criminals. And I have very little issues.

 

[Senator]

You're smart. You're a successful landlord. You're a jerk too.

It is what the law requires. Please look up Fair Housing Laws that have been in place since 1968.

Probably you may advocate treating different classes of people different, I have to obey the law.

 

[imnontrad]

You are running a business and it sounds like they are taking advantage of your good nature. If you keep them, the next time the lease is up, raise the amount to the local going rate. Also offer to reimburse them for attending Financial Peace University (FPU about ~$200) when they give you proof that they attended all classes. If they attend all and still have this behavior, consider whether it is worth the cost to just find a new, more reliable tenant. Factor i the cost of finding a tenant plus possibly having the unit vacant for a month or two and any renovations (painting, floor replacement, etc) that may be needed.

 

[Maidensong]

Been There Done That

We have 10 rentals which we've owned since 2010. They have been funding our retirement since 2015. It has to be treated like a business. This is our livelihood until SS kicks in next year. (We won't touch the IRA until we have to.)

In the past nine years, we've had to formally evict two tenants. In one case, the original tenant's grown children moved in with her and then she skipped the state. We could never get the sons to even fill out a form stating their full names. They also stopped paying rent as soon as mommy left. It took us six months to get them out. We tried negotiating with them, but no joy. The cost of a lawyer was frustrating, but it turned out to be a drop in the bucket compared to the damage they were doing to the unit. We finally got them out on Christmas Eve. (I know. We seem like Mr. & Mrs. Scrooge) But they left us with $34K in damages. (Thank God we have good insurance on the properties!)

The second time, we tried to work with a couple with 4 teenagers, but every month it was a new sob story. We chased them for rent for a couple of years and caused ourselves more stress than anyone needs. And they never appreciated our leniency or willingness to work with them on a payment plan that would get them caught up. We were rich. We didn't understand what it was like to have to work.

Oh really?We had $100 whole dollars to our names on the day we were married.

Anyway, this time we warned them if they were late again, they'd be evicted. When they didn't pay by the 5th, we went straight to a lawyer. It still took 2 months to regain control of the unit, but during this time, we didn't have to deal with the tenants at all. I can't tell you how stress relieving that was.

So the moral of this story is use the legal system and get control of your property back. Having it sit empty is better than having the wrong tenant in it. (As a side note, we spent a week and $3500 bringing the unit back to our specs, and rented it within a day of posting the listing on Facebook. Our new tenant's credit score made our computer dance and sing!)

We won't mess around with a tenant any longer. If they don't pay on time, we'll begin eviction proceedings immediately. We're not heartless. We're realists. And we won't be used as a payday loan ever again.

 

[Another Reader]

"And we won't be used as a payday loan ever again."

I never thought of it that way, but that's exactly what's happening. The late fee is cheaper than the payday loan. And no consequences if the landlord does not evict quickly.

 

[VFK57]

Rent payment, minus my expenses, is part of our income in retirement. If a renter delay or not paying the rent, it affects our ability to pay our bills. Of course there are people who can afford loss of this income and in this case they may afford a "rent donation" in some cases but most retirees do need it.

 

[HpRyder]

I've been a landlord here in SoCal for about 30yrs. so I have a lot of tenant experiences, both good & bad.


Ca just passed AB1482 requiring a just cause reason to evict and defining what a just cause eviction is.



PAYING LATE RENT is not a just cause reason to evict. Additionaly it defines the maximum you can raise rent in 1 yr as 5%+ ca cpi. So if you don't get these renters out NOW, it will be many years before you can catch up your rents close to market. If you just want them to leave for a non-just cause reason you'll have to pay them 1 months rent within 15 days of your notice and they may or may not leave at the end of the rent period. Then you'll have a just cause reason to evict them, you'll be out the 1 months rent and it will take 2-3 months to get to court to just regain possession. To try and recover the money you've lost it will take another 2-3 months after you serve them for a small court action to recover your 1 month payment + the 2-3 months they didn't pay you rent.

My advise to you is KEEP the 60 day termination notice active and get them out BEFORE Jan 01 2020 or you will be in a world of financial difficulty.

 

[2177V]

Been a landlord of a SFH for 10 years, same tenant since I started.
Renters are continually late on the rent, probably 7 out of the last 12 months.
They do pay but sometimes it's at the end of the month, which then causes them to be late the next month and so on....
Overall decent tenants but they continually seem to have "hard" times which effect paying rent on time.
I've assisted by returning half their rent deposit and using their security deposit as rent payment one month, which they're paying back each month.
Also offered a half month rent for the holidays once hoping this would get them back on their feet.
Only minimal rent increases each year, which should be helping them out.
The rental is about $300/month below market which I could charge tomorrow and get.
So I've painted a nice picture of myself. But am I really....
I issued a 3 day notice to quit or pay rent on the first of the month as I'm done chasing after the rent each month.
But then again, maybe that's just part of the job.
I also issued a 60 notice to vacate the property.
Renters paid the rent so I rescinded the 3 day notice.
But still kept the 60 in effect.
I believe I've been fair but listening to the renters one would not think so.
One comment was "sure, we are late but we pay every month and don't complain about the late fee".
This comment caught me off guard.
Is their an appropriate amount of "lateness" allowed before removing tenants?
Overall I like the tenants (been their 10 years) and if not for chasing after the rent monthly I would still rent to them.
I wonder if I used overkill by issuing a 60 notice to vacate?
So, asking renters and landlords to chime in.
Am i a horrible landlord who should rescind the 60 day notice or am I gullible as hell?
Thanks for any input ..... solutions or remedies....

My comments as a ex-landlord for 20 years plus:

1. 60 day notice to vacate is totally appropriate IMO. However, read my comment 7.

2. Your late fees are not high enough. Raise your late fees for the next tenant.

3. When you evaluated your original tenant, did they have a good credit FICO score?, decent rent to income ratio? job security or job longivity? and good references? Not doing your homework may result in a bad tenant.

4. The tenants are paying $300 below market so it is really their fault and not yours. If the tenants wants to negotiate, then that is your call. However, I recommend they sign a new rental agreement.

5. I do not recommend evicting the tenant yourself, there are eviction services in the yellow pages who understand the legal process and are backed up by attorneys. Expensive but less grief and a mistake on your part can exceed their fees. When the tenants see that the 3 day notice or 60 day notice is issued by an attorney, they normally comply.

6. I always rent out my SFH for slightly less than market so that I get more applications. I then pick the most qualified applicant that represents the less risk. Be familiar with discrimination laws in your state. i.e. smokers, pets, etc. I always consulted an attorney to reduce my risk and one hour of attorney fee is worth it IMO.

7. Your rental agreement must include all late rent penalties and what warrants a 60 days notice to vacate. If you do not have specific language for a 60 days notice to vacate, then this can be disputed in Court. Make sure you keep a log book of all the late payments and tenant violations of your rental agreement.

8. Language in your future rental agreement may include: "If the tenant's rent payment is late more than 3 times in a 12 month period, then the tenant is subject to a 60 days notice to vacate at the landlord's dsscretion."

 

[cathy63]

I've been a landlord here in SoCal for about 30yrs. so I have a lot of tenant experiences, both good & bad.


Ca just passed AB1482 requiring a just cause reason to evict and defining what a just cause eviction is.

PAYING LATE RENT is not a just cause reason to evict. Additionaly it defines the maximum you can raise rent in 1 yr as 5%+ ca cpi. So if you don't get these renters out NOW, it will be many years before you can catch up your rents close to market. If you just want them to leave for a non-just cause reason you'll have to pay them 1 months rent within 15 days of your notice and they may or may not leave at the end of the rent period. Then you'll have a just cause reason to evict them, you'll be out the 1 months rent and it will take 2-3 months to get to court to just regain possession. To try and recover the money you've lost it will take another 2-3 months after you serve them for a small court action to recover your 1 month payment + the 2-3 months they didn't pay you rent.

My advise to you is KEEP the 60 day termination notice active and get them out BEFORE Jan 01 2020 or you will be in a world of financial difficulty.

AB1482 does not apply to single family homes or condos unless they are owned by a corporation or REIT.

 

[kevdude]

My wife and I have been landlords for 17 years and currently own 24 units, which we manage ourselves with me handling the day to day issues when they arise. Our first property was a four-plex and we still have one of the couples as tenants today. Within a couple months of our purchase, their first issue came up with why they would be late. And since then, they are late about 40% - 50% of the time. But they always pay. At first I would get a little stressed out about the late payments, but after awhile we just started looking at all the late fees as extra income. I fully realize they probably take advantage of the situation a bit, but I also get about an extra month of rent each year from them and it only requires a few texts when they are late to work it out. They look out for the property and alert us of other issues as well, such as problem neighbors, etc. OP, is this the case with you and your tenants as well? If that's the case, I would probably relax a bit since they have been there for so long, as long as they maintain the property. If they do not, then I would stick with your plan of having them vacate the property. Incidentally, all of our tenants know we are the owners and I have no problem with that.

What did the attorney say?

As far as all of the advice you've received here, I would only listen to people that said they have been landlords for many years. With regards to an eviction, it doesn't sound like that's what will happen here, unless they don't move out at the end of the 60 days.

 

[meridiver]

As a landlord, the primary piece of advice that I give to people considering entering the business is that your tenants are NOT your friends. They are your tenants and nothing more. As soon as you cross that line and give an inch, they will take a mile every time.

This is why I'd recommend that if you decide to keep these tenants, you should engage a property management firm to manage the property. Yes, it will cut into your profits, but at this point, the tenant is bleeding you anyway. Unfortunately, you've established a dysfunctional landlord/tenant relationship over the course of the last 10 years. The only way to change that dynamic is to step out of the relationship and let a professional deal with them. This will signal to them that they can't keep playing the same old games anymore.

If you decide to pursue eviction, I'd still recommend that you engage a PM going forward so that you don't fall into the same trap with the new tenants.

 

[hotwired]

follow up

keep in mind this question is a complete values-based question. Having been a landlord for 10 years, I can tell you that you do teach people what is okay and what is not okay. You train others how to treat you. You've taught these people fat on time rent is important, but not crucial. I will tell you that we teach our tenants that rent even one day late is up there with our hair being on fire. I tell people our entire operation comes to a screeching halt and we focus on beginning the eviction process on the 2nd of the month. It's an emergency, not an emergency.

When people are having financial stress, they are going to pay whatever bill or whatever creditor is squawking the loudest. If you're squawking the waste, you will receive the least.

And by the way, this is not a criticism it all. Simply giving you my viewpoint about how things work. You have to decide for yourself of course. I suppose because of the long-term training you've given these people, it would be fair to them to make it clear that your policy is changing. Really give them a wake-up call, and make it clear somehow that this time there's not like the other times. Assuming that you do want to change the way things are. Acknowledge to them that you do realize that you've been tolerant of white rent in the past, but as of now rent that's even one day late will be treated as an emergency.