We've Already Recovered Halfway!

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Midpack

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From three months ago the DJ was down 35.5% on 3/23. As of yesterdays close, the DJ is down 17.7%. So we're halfway back after 13 trading days or 17 days.

Glad I didn't sell anything once again. We've made back lots of our paper losses already.

Hope those of you trying to catch a falling knife, and then buy back in had your timing down pat. And of course, this could all reverse course anytime, so any lucky traders can still blow it...
 

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...And of course, this could all reverse course anytime...

and I would be amazed if it did not reverse course. At the same time, if it doesn't then the markets so disconnected from economics that it would be a sandbox that I wouldn't want to play in.
 
It makes no sense to me. The Vanguard junk fund jumped 2.5% yesterday with the announced Fed backstopping program. Absolutely nuts. The govt stimulus has taken on too much IMHO. Artificial with no GDP.
 
When was the market predictable short term? Never in my lifetime that I know of...
 
From other threads here, I'm guessing most would think it is too early to call it a "V".

The paradox is that my understanding is that bottoms occur when everyone is the most pessimistic. I don't see many posters here who are not pessimistic, at least in the near-term.

I'm personally relentlessly optimistic, both in the near- and long-term, so I think it could be a "V" and I don't think we'll see the additional lurches downward that I see predicted here by some. But I also have lately been mulling over whether or not it would be good for me to be somewhat less optimistic.
 
I'm personally relentlessly optimistic, both in the near- and long-term, so I think it could be a "V" and I don't think we'll see the additional lurches downward that I see predicted here by some. But I also have lately been mulling over whether or not it would be good for me to be somewhat less optimistic.
In the face of such uncertainty, risk assessment is critical right now. IMO there's way too much attention spent on short term % returns. The downside risk is difficult to quantify but still quite substantial, so it's more important IMO to set aside optimism and pessimism and make sure one's portfolio is well girded and can withstand more volatility.
 
I've heard the market and earnings does not end for many quarters to come. It's a W followed by some sideways Zees, and then a V.
 
I saw an article comparing this crash to 2008. It suggested that we are in for another crash in the next couple of months.

2008 was a housing bubble/bank issue.

This crash was totally caused by the COVID. The COVID is slowly being controlled and accepted as a "new way of life."

Certain markets are going to get stronger, others will dwindle. Some will adapt. The question is which markets?

WIFI, Online Sales, Medical, Food Staples, Energy all seem like winners.

Entertainment and travel will flourish again once the COVID treatment is established.

Any thoughts on these/others as winners? Any thoughts on losers?

Ideas?

Thanks.
 
I saw an article comparing this crash to 2008. It suggested that we are in for another crash in the next couple of months.

2008 was a housing bubble/bank issue.

This crash was totally caused by the COVID. The COVID is slowly being controlled and accepted as a "new way of life."

Certain markets are going to get stronger, others will dwindle. Some will adapt. The question is which markets?

WIFI, Online Sales, Medical, Food Staples, Energy all seem like winners.

Entertainment and travel will flourish again once the COVID treatment is established.

Any thoughts on these/others as winners? Any thoughts on losers?

Ideas?

Thanks.

I am not a bit sure about the bolded above.
 
Hope those of you trying to catch a falling knife, and then buy back in had your timing down pat. And of course, this could all reverse course anytime, so any lucky traders can still blow it...

There is still plenty of opportunity for Mr. Market to make me look like an idiot. In the meantime, I am considering publishing a newsletter. Or at least getting a puff piece on the CNBC website!
 

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This is not a financial point. I think that so many boomers are scared of retirement (not having LBYM), that they will grab at any chance to take back their previous gains. I guess the “greed” quotient also plays a part in driving the market up as well.

Full disclosure: I bought CVX at 59... so I am already pretty happy!
 
I am not a bit sure about the bolded above.

Energy except oil.

A crash was coming eventually, not sure why, but the COVID made it happen sooner.

Have you bought/sold anything and why/not?

I am still working so i bought and am still buying with some cash I have ready to go.

I was not in the market before because I thought it was going to crash for the last several years. I got into CDs and bonds.

Hardly timing since i got out 4 years before a crash.

Thanks.
 
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and I would be amazed if it did not reverse course. At the same time, if it doesn't then the markets so disconnected from economics that it would be a sandbox that I wouldn't want to play in.

Agree. But I hope it does continue upward for a few more days and then I might just decide to bail. It will be very tempting......
 
Sure seems it’s a premature rally. More businesses doing full layoffs, bankruptcies starting. Assume distancing extends through August. Q1 then Q2 and Q3 earnings all impacted severely. I’m expecting more dips. March lows might be bottom.
 
I'm stupid. I reallocated near the bottom to what was supposed to be 70 / 30 but it's really 75 / 25. Cashed in just 1 high flyer & 1 loser. But I took a hard look at what I needed to self insure at the high end assisted living center near my house (want to stay between my 2 kids + walking distance to a park where they permit dogs). I had that so I shifted.
 
(Apologies for another mega-post...seems to happen on weekends!)

I also think short term market moves are super unpredictable, but I do think there is a strong case that the market is reacting more-or-less rationally by taking in new, substantive information as its available.

The pace with which this has all developed is breathtaking. Being locked in our houses and 24x7 coverage on every media outlet is compressing time. As I write this 13 of the 30 threads on the ER.org portal page are from the Covid containment area. This is all we're talking about so it feels like its been going on forever.

But let's remember that on Feb 11, just 60-odd days ago, there were only 45k cases diagnosed GLOBALLY. On March 11, it was still only 126k globally. Setting aside the finance porn issue, the pace at which legitimate, substantive information has been entering the investing market is staggering. We're talking about news cycles measured in hours, not days.


I think we've seen the market digest this in pretty recognizable chunks of info...

Phase 0, January 1: Assume that the market was "priced right". (Let's keep whether that's actually true in other threads please. :flowers:)

Phase 1, early January: the world saw China's actions but it was wrapped in a lot of information that this could be contained. The market just motored along.

Phase 2, late January: it cropped up in Italy. No one was terribly surprised that it had spread at some level and it continued to look like contract tracing could potentially chase it down. Market motored along as the "armageddon" scenario still looked very unlikely.

Phase 3, end of February: this was getting serious. Italy was looking more like chaos. It was clear aggressive measures had to be taken. Other countries were involved, but it still might be regionally controlled. Market started to price in global downturn but didn't consider it the central scenario.

Phase 4, early March: they locked down all of Italy. Spain, Germany, etc were now on the board. We started seeing "go home" alerts to travelers in certain countries. Diamond Princess was an incubator. US/UK were foot dragging but enough of a pattern had been built up to know there were going to get sucked in as well. The prospect of the entire western world being closed was now firmly on the table with no clear path out or insight on government support. Russia and Saudi Arabia lost their minds. Panic set in.

Phase 5, late March: Every modern country on the planet is in or heading towards shutdown...its all there for everyone to see...but governments are starting to take action. On March 26 the Senate passed the $2T stimulus. Steady, global drumbeat of bad news on the disease front but supportive news on the stimulus front.

Phase 6, now: the tide shows signs of turning. Most western economies show signs of the disease peaking. Governments continue to throw money and promises into the economies. Everyone is starting to make noises about turning the economies back on but no one knows what will happen. Russia and Saudi Arabia might make up. Scenarios do range from global depression to full "V" but the center of the probability curve is likely somewhere in the middle.

And the market?

Its priced almost exactly in the middle of January and the peak panic.

I think its been digesting actual information in order to price future probabilities. Its felt super crazy to all of us because the pace has been shocking, and moves amplified by trading/short covering/etc, but its not irrational in light of the known situations.


The real question is what are the big information points yet to come?

The ones on my mind...

1) Does China regress? They have a new city on lockdown. If China is the leading-leading-leading indicator, then some type of spiral there will rightly put depression back into the more likely bucket because there's again no known path out.

2) Does Europe finish peaking? If so, then we have a path to TRYING to turn on Western economies again.

3) What happens when they turn Europe back on? Espressos at coffee shops in Milan in June...or masks and you can walk to work if you have a disease passport?

4) Rolling US disease management. Can CA really finish its amazing job of largely keeping a lid on it? What does this look like in the world's largest economy.

5) The 2nd/3rd world. India, Africa, Central America...these countries are by and large just getting warmed up and in most cases have almost no chance of replicating the Asian/western response approach.

6) Science. The global pharm community is in motion like never before. Its very likely we will start to see substantive progress on treatment approaches. A vaccine is at least a year away, but if they can find therapies/approaches that make this less deadly, that's changes everything.

7) Antibody testing & Herd Immunity. The most hopeful scenario, ironically, is that all of this shutting down the economies was for naught. Loads of people had it and were very mildly affected. When antibody testing ramps up we discover we're closer to herd immunity that we know, the disease is less deadly than we think, and we can all get back to life.

And the combination of all those probabilities...is why I'm an AA fan and an indexer. I have no freaking clue how all of this will turn out. :popcorn:
 
The market is reacting to new information compared to what is perceived and/or expected at that point, and also extrapolating six months out. Much of the rebound is due to trillions of dollars from the bailout bill and the Fed, plus flattening action in the curves all over the world.
 
7) Antibody testing & Herd Immunity. The most hopeful scenario, ironically, is that all of this shutting down the economies was for naught. Loads of people had it and were very mildly affected. When antibody testing ramps up we discover we're closer to herd immunity that we know, the disease is less deadly than we think, and we can all get back to life.

And the combination of all those probabilities...is why I'm an AA fan and an indexer. I have no freaking clue how all of this will turn out. :popcorn:

I have no clue either, but I DO wonder if we had taken less aggressive action, if we would have had the apocalyptic impact that most everyone predicted. Some action that protected the most vulnerable, but left most of the economy in place might have been almost as effective perhaps? As it is, government has us pretty much dependent on them, which at least for me, is a very scary proposition...
 
I have no clue either, but I DO wonder if we had taken less aggressive action, if we would have had the apocalyptic impact that most everyone predicted. Some action that protected the most vulnerable, but left most of the economy in place might have been almost as effective perhaps? As it is, government has us pretty much dependent on them, which at least for me, is a very scary proposition...
We’re going to have some examples of countries that take “less aggressive actions” to look back on over the months ahead. If not Sweden, some of the less developed countries will let the virus run its course because they’re not prepared to do anything else.

I also hope we learn from South Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan and others as well. It’s seems clear they’re responses will prove more effective than ours (USA). https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/31/cou...at-singapore-is-doing-coronavirus-expert.html

It’s clear we could’ve started to respond sooner, and we got caught badly unprepared with testing. Whether we should’ve done better on either/both will be litigated in the months ahead. But it seems certain our case and death incidence per capita isn’t going to compare well with the countries above, so it’s our own fault if we don’t do better next time - there will be a next time sooner or later.
 
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If not Sweden, some of the less developed countries will let the virus run its course because they’re not prepared to do anything else.[/url]

I don't think we will be able to use the "less developed" countries as indicator, because they are not likely to do a significant job of protecting the vulnerable. They are probably a better "do nothing" model to see. That could tell us something as well.
 
I don't think we will be able to use the "less developed" countries as indicator, because they are not likely to do a significant job of protecting the vulnerable. They are probably a better "do nothing" model to see. That could tell us something as well.
We’ll see how the infection and death rates track without other measures, how herd immunity occurs organically and how effective it may be. It’s unfortunate some countries will go through it, but we may learn from it, just as we should learn from the first world countries that have managed it best. Not learning from mistakes is foolish.
 
It’s clear we could’ve started to respond sooner, and we got caught badly unprepared with testing. Whether we should’ve done better on either/both will be litigated in the months ahead. But it seems certain our case and death incidence per capita isn’t going to compare well with the countries above, so it’s our own fault if we don’t do better next time - there will be a next time sooner or later.

My fear is that our strategy -- at least on a national level -- is still unplanned and unclear, and the risk IMHO is high that we'll have a relapse sooner than later. I'm hoping that some of the treatments are found effective, otherwise, I fear we're going in for a nice, painful, and long W.
 
I have no clue either, but I DO wonder if we had taken less aggressive action, if we would have had the apocalyptic impact that most everyone predicted. Some action that protected the most vulnerable, but left most of the economy in place might have been almost as effective perhaps? As it is, government has us pretty much dependent on them, which at least for me, is a very scary proposition...


Maybe, with omniscience. I don’t see any way around physical distancing and shelter in place. It’s not only trying to identify, then protect, the most vulnerable. People of all ages die from this. You also have to try to protect essential workers of many kinds, doctors, nurses, scientists, delivery people, grocery cashiers, journalists and media communicators, government decision makers and emergency coordinators, national guard, fire, police...
All that can’t be accomplished if nonessential workers are out and about.

I just don’t think it would be politically viable for government to have done less, plus hospitals are already struggling to keep up as it is. Most people just look to their government in crises like this, demanding answers, leadership and help and I don’t think that’s going to change.
 
I just don’t think it would be politically viable for government to have done less, plus hospitals are already struggling to keep up as it is. Most people just look to their government in crises like this, demanding answers, leadership and help and I don’t think that’s going to change.

Just a point of detail, a few hospitals are having trouble keeping up. And that seems to be a thankfully fleeting problem. Seattle was the hot spot for a few weeks and got a mobile, federal hospital erected to help with overrun. That hospital is now being dismantled; I’m fairly certain it never took a patient. My neighbors are both nurses and they were exhausted and frazzled two weeks ago, now they’re all smiles with the unusually slow pace at work. And I have other nurse and healthcare working friends who are stressed because they’ve been deemed nonessential and have had hours reduced.
 
I'm surprised it turned around that fast. I was half-expecting a recession that would last for years. Instead, it seems like we may pull out of this in a few months.
 
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