Advice on Buying Electric Car

[NW-Bound]

... Since you put on so few miles with it what it gets for mileage doesn't matter much.

My wife's SUV gets 20 mpg on the highway. It's been driven so little after her retirement, and has but 23,000 miles despite its age (2003 model). It's been garaged so still looks spanking new.

My wife said we should get rid of it, but I asked her why. I take it out once a month to exercise it. The rest of the time, it sits in the garage, hooked up to a battery maintainer. Had to replace all 4 tires recently due to dry rot.

 

[FUEGO]

Thanks for the great advice.

We had this revelation last night (actually, Lena thought of it):

Maybe we don't need two cars.

It's rare that we both need a car at the same time. I hardly ever gig anymore. The only time it would be a problem is in the case of an accident or a "I locked the keys in the car" event.

We dropped to 1 car for a while and it was no problem. Trying to get back to 1 car again (after buying a new used minivan as THE car for the next 7-8 years). But we live in the city so no big deal to call an Uber, walk a couple blocks to a car rental agency, walk, or hop on the city bus.

I didn't realize you had the Tacoma in addition to the echo.

 

[TromboneAl]

Since your needs for a second car are modest I presume that you do not put many miles on that second car... if so, why not just go out and replace the Echo with another econo-box... something used and cheap but not a lot of miles. Since you put on so few miles with it what it gets for mileage doesn't matter much.

Well, we put about 15K miles/year on our main car--it's a ways to town. It's just that we rarely need two cars at the same time.

For fun, we took one of these (BMW i3) for a 20 mile test drive:

[/IMG]

Really fun to drive. I liked it better than the Tesla (less huge). It was used (8K miles). They listed it at $29,000, and the range is only 66 miles.

The dealer said the range was 80, but when we drove it, it showed a charge level of 99% with an estimate of 66 miles to go.

So, that would be a no go. They've had it on the lot for five months. Even at $10,000 it would be too impractical.

There is something magical about silently accelerating with a lot of torque.

 

[Sunset]

Since your needs for a second car are modest I presume that you do not put many miles on that second car... if so, why not just go out and replace the Echo with another econo-box... something used and cheap but not a lot of miles. Since you put on so few miles with it what it gets for mileage doesn't matter much.

Could even go buy a F150 as the mileage does not matter if the second car is hardly used.
That's what I'm trying to convince DW to buy so I can borrow it

 

[retirementguy1]

A couple years ago I read an article on leasing the Volt. You could get a lease for $300 but GM was subsidizing the lease by $150 a month to promote the concept and the brand. So it would have cost $450. It proved very popular and what happened is that you had a glut of Volts hitting the market that were lease returns and it depressed the used market which is why used volts are so affordable. I've also read the same thing happened with the Nissan Leafs but without the subsidy. Just a lot of leases hitting the market at the same time. Currently I don't think the price reflects the value.

 

[nash031]

For fun, we took one of these (BMW i3) for a 20 mile test drive:

Really fun to drive. I liked it better than the Tesla (less huge). It was used (8K miles). They listed it at $29,000, and the range is only 66 miles.

The dealer said the range was 80, but when we drove it, it showed a charge level of 99% with an estimate of 66 miles to go.

So, that would be a no go. They've had it on the lot for five months. Even at $10,000 it would be too impractical.

There is something magical about silently accelerating with a lot of torque.

I like the i3. Would love to test drive one during DW's car buying in the near future. I'd give it a look in four years when it's my turn, but 66-80 miles is a non-starter as you said. That's why I am avoiding electrics for now, as I expect the technology will get better and allow longer range in the near future. As another said: I'm not sure price reflects value at this point.

 

[jabbahop]

I like the i3. Would love to test drive one during DW's car buying in the near future. I'd give it a look in four years when it's my turn, but 66-80 miles is a non-starter as you said. That's why I am avoiding electrics for now, as I expect the technology will get better and allow longer range in the near future. As another said: I'm not sure price reflects value at this point.

The new i3 model is supposed to be around 120 miles available this summer.

Don't test drive it - I did and had to have it ;-) I never had a BMW and really dislike the gas BMW's that they loan when the car is in the shop. The look is a strange but is surprisingly big and comfortable inside.

While I'd love to have more miles, in reality it hasn't been a limiter except 95% of our driving. We have an old car for longer drives or could just rent one.

Seeing the resale value is depressing but in reality we will keep this car a LONG time so less worried about than someone how will upgrade every 4 years or so.

 

[gerntz]

I won't try to talk you in/out of anything, and you're right the Prius gets higher mpg city than highway. BUT The EPA estimate, FWIW is 58/53 city/highway - and that's not far from my experience after 40,000 miles. I have a 2012 Prius and I average about 55 mpg summer and about 45 winter - I drive both city and highway miles, a little more highway overall. IIRC you're in a (much) warmer climate than I am, so you should easily average about 50 mpg highway with a Prius. I know of few if any ICE cars that will average 50 mpg, there is a significant difference IME.

DW wanted an EV, but between purchase price, range anxiety/long charge times (without expensive fast charge equipment), and total emissions (depending on your power plant fuels) that are much higher than many people realize - the technology isn't there yet for us. YMMV

Hybrids seem a way more practical way to go then electric.

 

[GTFan]

A couple years ago I read an article on leasing the Volt. You could get a lease for $300 but GM was subsidizing the lease by $150 a month to promote the concept and the brand. So it would have cost $450. It proved very popular and what happened is that you had a glut of Volts hitting the market that were lease returns and it depressed the used market which is why used volts are so affordable. I've also read the same thing happened with the Nissan Leafs but without the subsidy. Just a lot of leases hitting the market at the same time. Currently I don't think the price reflects the value.

Yeah I posted this above, 2-3 year old Volts are a crazy good deal now for a car that has a ton of fun tech in it. Lots of them in the sub-$15k range here for a car that even with tax credits sold for $30-35k new.

 

[Nodak]

From what I have read the battery pack for an electric vehicle will last 70,000 to 100,000 miles. The replacement cost for a battery pack can be $9,000 up to $15,000. If what I have read is accurate that does not bode well for their used car market.

 

[Hermit]

From what I have read the battery pack for an electric vehicle will last 70,000 to 100,000 miles. The replacement cost for a battery pack can be $9,000 up to $15,000. If what I have read is accurate that does not bode well for their used car market.

That certainly does not hold for the Prius, although I used to hear the same thing for them. DD's Prius has 160,000 miles and is still going strong.

 

[jabbahop]

From what I have read the battery pack for an electric vehicle will last 70,000 to 100,000 miles. The replacement cost for a battery pack can be $9,000 up to $15,000. If what I have read is accurate that does not bode well for their used car market.

I am not sure about other manufacturers but the BMW i3 battery warranty is 100K miles or 8 years. Not sure of the cost but they will be expensive though coming down with the new battery volume/technology.

The longest mile i3 I am aware of has 50K miles and so far has lost only 5% of charge so it appears the life of the batteries might be significantly longer than the warrantied life (same as a standard engine).

 

[Dave J]

Prius is 8 years and 100k miles also on hybrid components warranty.
Very, very few Prius have had battery problems so far.

 

[explanade]

From what I have read the battery pack for an electric vehicle will last 70,000 to 100,000 miles. The replacement cost for a battery pack can be $9,000 up to $15,000. If what I have read is accurate that does not bode well for their used car market.

Battery replacement could be high 4-figures.

But in 10 years or however long after buying you need to replace the whole battery pack, you will have presumably saved a lot of money from not spending money on oil changes, transmission repairs and maintenance and other costs for maintaining ICE which EVs don't appear to have.

 

[Nodak]

I am willing to wait and see what the trade in value for those vehicles will be.

 

[travelover]

That certainly does not hold for the Prius, although I used to hear the same thing for them. DD's Prius has 160,000 miles and is still going strong.

The battery life seems to be good for the hybrids, but I'm curious to see if it is similar for all electrics. In my hybrid Escape, the battery is never discharged past 43% and never more than 56%, plus it has it's own AC circuit to keep it cool and an algorithm to self warm it in cold weather. The charge / discharge cycle would seem to be more severe for an all electric vehicle.

 

[Hermit]

The battery life seems to be good for the hybrids, but I'm curious to see if it is similar for all electrics. In my hybrid Escape, the battery is never discharged past 43% and never more than 56%, plus it has it's own AC circuit to keep it cool and an algorithm to self warm it in cold weather. The charge / discharge cycle would seem to be more severe for an all electric vehicle.

About a year ago DD managed to drain the battery in the Prius dead. It was so dead it would not start with a jump. She had it towed to the local Toyota dealer and they charged it up and it has been fine. Moral of this story: Yes, you do have to stop at a gas station every once in a while. Even in a Prius.

 

[GTFan]

I am willing to wait and see what the trade in value for those vehicles will be.

You already know what the trade-in value for these vehicles is - crap. They've been around for enough years now, and they'll trade-in for crap for as long as gas is cheap and folks doubt the stats already out there that the packs last for well over 100k miles. Don't forget that these are highly managed batteries, they don't fully discharge and charging is regulated.

The whole point of buying a 2-3 year old Leaf or Volt is that you're getting a great deal on a car that still has a lot of life left in it. You don't have to take the massive hit these cars have now. But some just can't consider buying anything but new.

 

[ulrichw]

The whole point of buying a 2-3 year old Leaf or Volt is that you're getting a great deal on a car that still has a lot of life left in it. You don't have to take the massive hit these cars have now. But some just can't consider buying anything but new.

While I generally agree with your first sentence, I'm not as comfortable with your implied conclusion that only people who *have* to have new cars should consider new cars.

Battery-electric vehicles are still on the steep part of the development curve. In a small number of years (2-5?) we'll see multiple BEVs on the market with 200+ mile ranges.

Given how much of a compromise the current 80-100 mile range is, I think this is a potential game changer.

While I generally believe in buying cars and driving them into the ground, I think in this particular time period, a BEV buyer will probably have strong pressures to upgrade in the not-too-distant future.

It's on that basis that I chose to lease a new VW e-Golf instead of buying outright. I believe that just about when the lease is up, there will be a few electric vehicles on the market that will be "keepers."

Buying used is certainly better than buying new - but I'd strongly recommend considering a lease.

 

[explanade]

Average miles driven per day is under 30:

New Study Reveals When, Where and How Much Motorists Drive | AAA NewsRoom

I think EVs with electric ranges of 100-125 will more than satisfy the commute needs of most Americans.

Of course, people won't spend $40k or more just for a commute vehicle.

If EVs with range extenders get you 150 miles for lets say around $30k, they could steal a lot of the thunder from the Tesla Model 3 or the Chevy Bolt.

Especially if these 200 mile EVs cost more like $40k out the door with various options.

 

[eroscott]

Just got back from a ride in my neighbor's Tesla Model X.

Holy moly! More like a spaceship than a car. He demonstrated the autonomous driving mode which worked even on a small country road.

It really pushes you back into the seat when it accelerates. Range of 250 miles.

I wasn't at all tempted, though, to spend the $107,000.00 that my neighbor spent for his. It wasn't super quiet on the highway.

Everything is electric, from opening the doors to adjusting the seats. I see that, in part, as just more things that can break.

Fun experience, though.

The ~$30K (after fed tax credit) Tesla Model 3 is the mass production car. The early Tesla cars are for many early adopters and gives them money for R&D of the mass production car. This was the documented plan for like 8 years in the early blogs. It is an early adopter type purchase like plasma TV, early cell phones, flat screen monitors, etc.

If the Model S (sedan) or Model X (cross over) fit your needs and the cost does NOT affect your lifestyle in anyway then LIVE your life that you've worked hard for. Not everything has to work out on spreadsheet. Your investments alone can pay for it. Car loans are 2% (or 2.04% in my case).

It is a pretty spectacular vehicle. Everyone I demo to says some of the same things. Blown away by the features. As one small example when you leave your garage it will shut the door for you. Driving on the highway you can let it do 95% of the work. I did that on a 1000+ mile trip recently.

The "big sky" windshields is amazing to ride with going in the trees, under bridges, mountains, etc, etc.

 

[TromboneAl]

Maybe we don't need two cars.

Lena called home last night to say she'd be late from choir rehearsal. Of course, for a second I thought "Another accident."

That made me realize that it's pretty important to have two cars if something like that happens.

 

[aaronc879]

Outside of the Central Valley there are few flat freeways in California. Our freeways in the east are somewhat flat in a few places. I'm a Prius owner since 2009. We use the Prius for long trips precisely due to the great gas mileage in all circumstances. 45.7 mpg, city or highway. The gas engine shuts off every time you go down a hill and the wheels recharge the battery.

We just took a road trip to Atlanta from PA, about 1500 miles round trip. We went 70 mph or a little over for much of the rural highway driving. Overall gas mileage actually improved a bit according to the car's computer. We have 116K miles on the car.


Sent from my iPhone using Early Retirement Forum

As an experienced Prius driver, I wonder how you feel the about the rear visibility(or lack there of). I test drove one a couple years ago and couldn't get over the blind spots out the back of the car. I love the concept of the Prius but they have to change the rear design before i'll consider buying one. Do you get used to it? It seems dangerous to me.

 

[Dave J]

As an experienced Prius driver, I wonder how you feel the about the rear visibility(or lack there of). I test drove one a couple years ago and couldn't get over the blind spots out the back of the car. I love the concept of the Prius but they have to change the rear design before i'll consider buying one. Do you get used to it? It seems dangerous to me.

I thought that myself on first drive.Yes, you do get used to it. I've drove my 2014 20000 miles now(51.96 mpg overall average) and I am used to it.

 

[swakyaby]

Lena called home last night to say she'd be late from choir rehearsal. Of course, for a second I thought "Another accident."

That made me realize that it's pretty important to have two cars if something like that happens.

A very good point. I've occasionally entertained the thought of a one car household when I retire, but sometimes it seems too restrictive to plan events that don't conflict. Even though we have a motorcycle that DH can ride for a real transportation dilemma, it wouldn't help me much if DH had the car and I needed to go somewhere at last minute's notice. I can't reach the ground on that thing!