Are organic foods healthier for us?

[Lsbcal]

Frankly I decided to start eating more organic fruits because I thought they were healthier. They cost more but I reasoned that we were well able to pay the difference. But then I read this in Quora by a respected physicist : https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-mind-blowing-facts-about-food/answer/Richard-Muller-3

Organic vegetables are much higher in carcinogens than are vegetables grown sprayed with pesticides. This fact was discovered by Bruce Ames who was, at that time, the chair of biochemistry at UC Berkeley.

The discovery was easily understood. To grow foods without pesticides, you have to pick those subspecies that are "naturally resistant" to insects and fungus. That invariably means that they have higher levels of "natural" poisons in their skin and in their flesh. So those farmers who picked the plants that didn't need pesticides were picking plants that (to use Ames' terminology) were surviving by engaging in chemical warfare.

Non-organic foods are grown using pesticides that are extensively tested by the FDA to be non-cancer inducing (or at least minimally so). Moreover, they are on the outside of the skin, not in the meat itself, and so can be washed off easily.

There is more on this at Stack Exchange: environmental health - Are organic vegetables higher in carcinogens? - Skeptics Stack Exchange
Here is a snippet:

1. Research shows that numerous chemicals present in natural products tested positive in the Ames test which is a biological test used to detect chemicals that are mutagenic. These chemicals also tested positive in tests for cancer using rodents.

But Dr. Ames began rethinking this war against synthetic chemicals after thousands of chemicals had been subjected to his test. He noticed that plenty of natural chemicals flunked the Ames test. He and Dr. Gold took a systematic look at the chemicals that had been tested on rodents. They found that about half of natural chemicals tested positive for carcinogencity, the same proportion as the synthetic chemicals. Fruits, vegetables, herbs and spices contained their own pesticides that caused cancer in rodents. The toxins were found in apples, bananas, beets, Brussel sprouts, collard greens, grapes, melons, oranges, parsley, peaches — the list went on and on.
​

So maybe I'll buy those cheaper non-organic blueberries and wash them down really well. Organic or non-organic? Paper or plastic?

 

[samclem]

Yep. In fact, the man-made pesticides are better understood and have been more thoroughly tested for toxicity than the far more numerous pesticides that are already in the fruits/vegetables. The man-made chemicals have to be tested by law, the ones already in the fruits/veggies do not have to be. There are plenty of well-known and powerful carcinogens that occur naturally in fruits and vegetables--some are pesticides produced by the plant, some have other functions.

Just wash 'em well and save the money to use for something that might really improve one's health.

 

[Fedup]

I grow my food organically so I think the paper is more non sense. I don't pick the type of plants or fruits that are naturally resistant to insect and fungus. What fungus? I never see any.
But I don't always like to be fleeced just because it's organic either. I remember a seller shouted at me that I would die of cancer if I didn't buy organic fruit. I was about to report her to the city. That kind of threat is nonsense. I tend to buy fresh. Sometimes organic and sometimes not.

 

[bUU]

That doesn't ring true for me... The pesticides naturally in food have been tested by regular consumption for thousands of years.

 

[samclem]

That doesn't ring true for me... The pesticides naturally in food have been tested by regular consumption for thousands of years.

Whether it "rings true" or not, there is no doubt that foods naturally contain carcinogenic chemicals. Some are likely the by-product of millions of years of chemical warfare measure-countermeasure tit-for-tat with bugs and animals. Yes, people have been eating these things for thousands of years. I'm not sure what that shows, since people have been expiring regularly, too. They get cancer more often now because they live long enough to get cancer, instead of being killed younger in childbirth, by malnutrition, all manner of communicable diseases, etc.

 

[Lsbcal]

That doesn't ring true for me... The pesticides naturally in food have been tested by regular consumption for thousands of years.

I'm just going to guess at a comeback to this thesis. The pesticides in natural foods threat may be very low relative to other things that kill us like mutations, rattlesnakes, wild horses, other humans, etc. So history may be no guide until we start eliminating the other sources of death.

And we may not even be there yet. It is not clear to me that organic versus non-organic saves any lives either way.

I really don't know the answers and am just a confused customer in the produce section. I started this thread in the hopes that all you enlightened ER people would help me.

 

[bUU]

I'm not sure what that shows, since people have been expiring regularly, too.

Let me provide an equally valid response: There is no evidence that eating man-made pesticides prevent people from expiring regularly.

I think the best support y'all can put together for your thesis is that we don't really know anything and so everything is just a guess. For all we know life may be an illusion.

 

[harley]

Well, since there's no clear definition of what "organic" really means, I'd say this is a non-issue. I think (personally, IMO) that grass fed beef, free range chicken, and wild caught salmon are better for you nutritionally than the farmed and medicated versions. They certainly do taste better, so I follow my taste buds on this one. As for veggies and fruit, who know? I don't usually buy organic because the definitions of it are so vague, and unless I can taste a difference I don't really care. Since I've stopped eating grains and sugar that's one whole category I don't have to worry about. Anyway, it's all either GMO or non-organic. There's very little we eat that hasn't been tinkered with one way or another.

 

[Fedup]

Free range eggs definitely taste better in Hawaii than in California. Who knows why? But I buy organic when the non organic is not available. Sprouts often have some vegetables in organic only.

 

[MRG]

I don't know what "healthy foods" are anymore. I mean if I don't eat I die, and if I do eat, I die.

I go by what I enjoy as well. I taste a difference with high quality products if it's organic so be it.

We had some lovely Scottish Salmon last week. Thirty five bucks a pound and worth it. Had some sashimi and it was like butter.

 

[RetiredGypsy]

The discovery was easily understood. To grow foods without pesticides, you have to pick those subspecies that are "naturally resistant" to insects and fungus. That invariably means that they have higher levels of "natural" poisons in their skin and in their flesh. So those farmers who picked the plants that didn't need pesticides were picking plants that (to use Ames' terminology) were surviving by engaging in chemical warfare.

Naturally resistant to insect and fungus with poisons aimed at those things doesn't seem to follow that they're necessarily harmful to us. There are also other methods to protecting crops than picking things bugs don't like. Companion planting with plants that ward off insects or strengthen crops comes immediately to mind as something that's been used for thousands of years.

Fruit seems designed to be eaten as a way of propagating the plant, so it makes just as much sense for vegetation to have just enough resistance to whatever's harmful while still being a big enough beneficiary to whatever's meant to carry it off.

But who cares, because foods labeled organic can still use pesticides. "Organic" is a sneaky label with a surprising amount of caveats.

I buy things labeled organic when they're on a better sale than non-organic items. I've found some tend to consistently taste better, like strawberries, some varieties of apples, and tomatoes.

But I figure why pay $2+ per pound of anything when I can grow it all for the cost of some seeds and nutritionally-dense dirt(often for free from the county)? I'd rather go without $4/lb apples and wait the few years for the apple trees to start producing.

 

[MichaelB]

Too bad George Carlin isn't around. He'd have a great routine with free-range, pasture raised, happy cows, etc.

Consumer Report published this a while back, titled "From Crop to Table, Pesticide Use in Produce". http://www.consumerreports.org/cont...orts_From Crop to Table Report_March 2015.pdf

It identifies different pesticides in use that affect the US food supply and suggests some be avoided.

 

[gerntz]

Organic is a rip off preying on emotions. Go ahead & spend more. LOL.

 

[bjorn2bwild]

Organic or not, fruits and vegetables are trying to kill you -

Fruits and vegetables are indeed healthful but not necessarily because they shield you from oxidative stress. In fact, they may improve health for quite the opposite reason: They stress you. That stress comes courtesy of trace amounts of naturally occurring pesticides and anti-grazing compounds. You already know these substances as the hot flavors in spices, the mouth-puckering tannins in wines, or the stink of Brussels sprouts. They are the antibacterials, antifungals, and grazing deterrents of the plant world. In the right amount, these slightly noxious substances, which help plants survive, may leave you stronger.

Fruits and Vegetables Are Trying to Kill You - Issue 15: Turbulence - Nautilus

 

[Marita40]

I don't buy organic fruits or veggies. I don't fully buy into any reasoning that they are healthy. I do buy organic, antibiotic free, grass fed or wild meats and fish.

 

[Midpack]

Wait a minute, you mean we're gonna die no matter what we eat?

We eat some organic, but mostly not. We're not dead yet, there's your proof.

Now there are organic ßurgers at McDonalds - Germany only. That ought to dispel any credibility re: organic! http://www.eater.com/2015/9/25/9397081/mcdonalds-newest-burger-will-be-organic

[Nothing against McD, I eat (mostly breakfast) there about a dozen times a year when I'm in a pinch]

 

[ABQ2015]

I'm not noticing much of a difference in taste between organic and non-organic vegetables purchased at the grocery store. Maybe the cherry tomatoes are tarter but I don't like more acidic tomatoes anyway. The carrots with stems do taste better. I usually notice a difference in taste when I buy at the local grower's market in the summer at peak season whether the produce is organic or not. Perhaps my palate is not refined.

 

[ERD50]

...

But who cares, because foods labeled organic can still use pesticides. "Organic" is a sneaky label with a surprising amount of caveats. ....

Yep. This is one of the things that has me actively avoiding food labelled 'organic' (like Harley says - whatever that means). The other thing is I think it is mostly a scam, and I don;t like helping to perpetuate a scam.

Yes, 'organic' farmers have a variety of pesticides they can use. They are from 'natural sources' (again, whatever that means). Poison mushrooms, lead, and arsenic are 'natural' too. But these pesticides fro 'natural sources' are allowed for use, because they have been used a long time and are "Generally Regarded As Safe - GRAS". And because of that, they have not been tested to the same degree as modern synthetic pesticides. And guess what - they often aren't very effective, so they get used in large doses. Commercial farmers are not stupid, if these were pesticides were good, they'd use them.

So my concern is that I could be getting a whole lot of "natural chemicals" that are bad for me, as opposed to smaller doses of pesticides that have been carefully studied.

You also have to consider progress. The pesticide companies are constantly trying to improve their products. They can modify formulas and production processes to make these pesticides safer to use, the delivery systems more pin-point effective, and to break down quicker into non-toxic components. But the 'organic' farmers are pretty much stuck with the old methods, regardless of how good or bad they are.

Biggest scam - 'organic onions'. If you read up a bit, or have ever grown onions, you'll know that they don't need fertilizer, and no bugs touch them. For the most part, the only difference is the ones labelled 'organic' have been certified. Yeah!

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

I'm not noticing a difference in taste between organic and non-organic vegetables purchased at the grocery store. Maybe the cherry tomatoes are tarter but I don't like more acidic tomatoes anyway. I do notice a difference in taste when I buy at the local grower's market in the summer at peak season whether the produce is organic or not. Perhaps my palate is not refined.

I suspect your pallet is just fine, and refined!

Locally grown produce in season is very likely to be better than commercial stuff in the retail grocery store.

Not because it is 'organic', but because it might be fresher, picked at the peak, and it may be from varieties that are bred for taste over shipping/keeping qualities.

This is one of the reasons for the interest in 'heirloom' tomatoes. They might be (but not necessarily), harder to grow, maybe succumb to disease easier, may tend to be less perfect cosmetically, but many will have superior (or just different) flavor. Another thing commercial growers look for is product that ripens all at the same time. This makes harvesting more efficient (one or two runs through the field). But if you are getting a premium price, spending more time selecting/picking the ripest ones is worth it.

-ERD50

 

[samclem]

Another thing commercial growers look for is product that ripens all at the same time. This makes harvesting more efficient (one or two runs through the field). But if you are getting a premium price, spending more time selecting/picking the ripest ones is worth it.

The indeterminate varieties of tomatoes that keep producing fruit until killed by the frost are what we look for. We can't eat 30 tomatoes that all become ripe in the same week (which is what a big grower wants, and why they generally grow determinate varieties).

 

[jonat]

Commercially-grown organic produce can have pesticides used on them - just "organic" ones. Usually more poisonous than the engineered pesticides used by non-organic growers. Don't get me started on the GMO hysteria - anti-GMO people are perfectly happy to eat lots of products whose seeds have been genetically modified with chemicals or radiation (grapefruit or seedless watermelon, anyone?)

Sure, one can grow organic without pesticides - I have friends who run a small farm that way. But nearly everything you buy in stores with an organic label has had pesticides used on it, and the residues are often higher than from comparable non-organic produce. Not that it matters, as the levels in either case are so low as to be harmless. What you really should worry about is bacterial contamination.

 

[harley]

Locally grown produce in season is very likely to be better than commercial stuff in the retail grocery store.

Not because it is 'organic', but because it might be fresher, picked at the peak, and it may be from varieties that are bred for taste over shipping/keeping qualities.

We're down in SWFL for the winter, and not too far away from Plant City, where 3/4 of the strawberries sold in the US (in winter) are grown. We've got a little guy down the street with a fruit & veggie stand, and he has the most incredible strawberries we've ever eaten. It turns out he gets the previous day's Plant City strawberries that were too ripe to ship, but they are perfect for local consumption. It doesn't have anything to do with organic or not, or anything except being picked at the perfect time.

We also have a major tomato processing plant nearby. I-75 is a few miles away, and right on the corner where the trucks come off the interstate there are always a bunch of green tomatoes that fall out of the truck when they make the turn off the ramp. The amazing part is that very few of them break when they fall, and I've come to realize why these mass produced tomatoes are so tasteless. They take the to the plant and gas them with (I think) ethylene glycol to turn them red, but that's all they are is red. Still no real flavor. On the other hand, the vine ripened tomatoes I buy in the grocery store are significantly tastier. The negative part of this type of tomato is that sometimes the seeds inside have started sprouting. It looks like a bunch of worms, not very appetizing. But the tomatoes are still good, so I just remove the seeds/sprouts and eat the fairly tasty tomatoes. Still not as good as the ones in my garden, but not bad.

To me the defining characteristic of good fruit/veggies isn't organic or not, it's naturally ripened or not.

 

[Music Lover]

Good article on why store bought tomatoes don't taste that good:

"The demise of the tomato’s flavor started about seventy years ago when growers noticed that some tomatoes turned red from green uniformly when they ripened. Back then, most tomatoes had shoulders—a raised area near the depression where the tomato attaches to the stem—that turned red slower than the rest of the tomato. The green shoulders made it difficult for farmers to tell when the tomato was ready to harvest, and shoppers did not like the look of them either.

So when the uniformly colored tomatoes randomly appeared, tomato breeders realized its potential. The*effect that caused the green shoulders to disappear was due to a random genetic mutation, which was dubbed the “uniform ripening” trait. Farmers began selecting seeds from the uniformly red tomatoes and crossing them with other uniformly red tomatoes to create the visually perfect commercial tomatoes that we have today.

Because of the rudimentary understanding of genetics at that time, neither farmers nor researchers knew that the “uniform ripening” trait came with a trade off; it also disabled a gene in a tomato that regulates chlorophyll. Ann Powell, a plant scientist at the University of California, Davis, and her research group*reported in a 2012 Science article that the chlorophyll concentrated in the green shoulders also increased the level of flavor-creating sugars for tomatoes. When the tomatoes’ green shoulders were bred out, so were the chlorophyll and extra sugars—and the tomato’s flavor. And this mutation was ubiquitous; when Powell and her colleagues examined 25 commercial tomato varieties from all over the world, they found the uniform ripening flavor reducing mutation in all of them."

https://www.geneticliteracyproject....e-a-lost-fruit-and-why-you-may-never-eat-one/

 

[6miths]

I avoid 'organic'. It is more expensive and of no proven benefit. Farming methods would not likely be sustainable to feed large populations. More Madison Ave as far as I'm concerned. Organic, gluten-free, low bad fat, high good fat, no sugar, low sugar, no bad sugar, protein enriched, blah, blah, blah...

I do have some vices. One of which is 'heritage' foods which include what one local market calls 'ugly tomatoes'. Music lover refers to them above and they are delicious!

 

[audreyh1]

I buy organic. Usually looks better, tastes better. Sometimes tastes way better.