Getting Out Of The Cave

Texas Proud said:
I know that.... the question I posed is how did they get back 2 plus miles in the cave that has such narrow passages? They would have had to take a lot of lights and some food and drink for that long of a hike... we are talking many hours...



And who would go so far without knowledge of the cave? I never want to go into a cave without some very experienced guide or it is so marked that there is no way to get lost...
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Apparently, these kids do know the cave pretty well, have been in it many times. It was the flooding that made this a crisis.
Crews are now pumping water out of the cave, already took out millions of gallons. But more rains are predicted soon, which could set things back or put everyone in greater peril.
As far as the scuba tanks: I'm not clear on why each person would need to carry a tank in the narrow confines of the cave. The tank(s) could be anywhere with a line run to a regulator carried by the swimmer. This isn't "cave diving", it is a rescue operation. But, I'm sure the folks on the scene have thought of all the easy answers.
 
samclem, your picture of Twain is ironic given this thread's cave talk. Remember the plight of Injun Joe...
 
How difficult would it be to drain the rain water out?
 
samclem said:
Apparently, these kids do know the cave pretty well, have been in it many times. It was the flooding that made this a crisis.
Crews are now pumping water out of the cave, already took out millions of gallons. But more rains are predicted soon, which could set things back or put everyone in greater peril.
As far as the scuba tanks: I'm not clear on why each person would need to carry a tank in the narrow confines of the cave. The tank(s) could be anywhere with a line run to a regulator carried by the swimmer. This isn't "cave diving", it is a rescue operation. But, I'm sure the folks on the scene have thought of all the easy answers.
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1. You aren't going to get a hose of long enough length to be useful
2. The zero viz will make saving anyone who gets dis-oriented almost impossible
3. Zero viz really induced complete panic

If I had to do it with Scuba, I'd

- Give everyone a full face mask which is duct taped over their head and the reg glued in.
- Give them huge thick mitten gloves so they cannot move their fingers
- Strap a tank between their legs and bind their legs together with rope and 3x the gas needed
- Put 50 pounds of lead on them
- Tie a line to them and literally drag each person through

But even that is not likely to work depending on the shape of the restrictions ... some of these can be so gnarly that you cannot get through w/out contorting your body in certain ways
 
limeyx said:
1. You aren't going to get a hose of long enough length to be useful
2. The zero viz will make saving anyone who gets dis-oriented almost impossible
3. Zero viz really induced complete panic
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Right. We'd obviously have a guide rope, harnesses snap-linked to it, lights. Of course they can get any length of O2 hose needed. It doesn't need to span the entire cave. A full-face mask is a good idea, complete with lights.

There's a lot of things going in their favor:
- They have been found.
- A relatively small group needing to be rescued.
- They are young people who have been active in sports and presumably still in good shape. Getting out an 80 year old asthmatic in a wheelchair would be very different.
-Virtually no resource constraints.


The folks on scene presumably have the best info on the situation and are doing all possible to see this through to a happy conclusion.
 
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marko said:
I think I'd take the wait myself. They said it could be four months.

Set me up with some comforts (food, clothes, light---lotsa light-- bedding.....and WiFi) and I can wait it out. Kinda like being snowbound in reverse.

They can bring in everything needed. With my life on the line (at age 14) I'd go with an unpleasant guarantee rather than a maybe.

What I don't understand is how they're getting good air at this point without it being pumped in.
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No guarantee with waiting either. 13 people in a cramped space with limited access to water, and no sanitary facilities means very high likelihood of contracting an infection. Both options are very poor, IMO. I really don't know which is worse. I think they will have to do some sort of hybrid-the strongest swimmer(s) first, see how it goes. I doubt all 13 could make the scuba dive. Also doubt all 13 could last months in those conditions. :confused: I really really hope they find some other option like drilling down or some super pumps to get the water levels lower.
 
samclem said:
- They are young people who have been active in sports and presumably still in good shape. Getting out an 80 year old asthmatic in a wheelchair would be very different.
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One big challenge is they are now pretty emaciated. They were underground with no food for 10 days. Probably didn't move much to preserve energy. Has to be some atrophy and exhaustion that set in.

Any of us would be mush after that. 12 year olds will recover quicker, but you'd have to first get them back to normal (1 week+?) and train them. So, yeah I'm hoping the engineers figure this one out quickly and safely.
 
build a tube about the size of an aircraft drop tank with a door to allow a kid in and out. Attach a rope to both ends. Place a small air supply in the tank with a kid and pull it them the water one at a time.
 
I am a certified diver (not cave diver), who has some 2,700+ dives. I'm also a geologist. The geology is limestone, which is highly permeable. Once the forecast rains come, the pumps that have been slowly lowering the water level won't be able to come close to keeping up, and the water level will rise, along with the strength of the water flow. If it were me (or my kid), I'd opt for training the kids on the basics of scuba and cave diving, get them full face masks (for which donations have already been requested), and take the risk of having one to several drown due to panic on the way out. Cold, bad air, an psychologically difficult conditions would make me want to get out quickly. 9 getting out alive is better than 12 drowning when the water rises, IMHO. There is no safe path to survival at this point.
 
See: restrictions. Not just narrow, but bendy! I have to wonder how the group ever got through them when it was dry (and they weighed more).

Rustic23 said:
build a tube about the size of an aircraft drop tank with a door to allow a kid in and out. Attach a rope to both ends. Place a small air supply in the tank with a kid and pull it them the water one at a time.
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In my younger days I did a lot of spelunking. You would be surprised at how small an opening can be negotiated by someone who is young and slim.
 
braumeister said:
In my younger days I did a lot of spelunking. You would be surprised at how small an opening can be negotiated by someone who is young and slim.
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Yah but not in zero visibility underwater (when you aren't even a trained diver)

This would be a nightmare (and I am cave trained and have dived caves for 10 years)
 
I was responding to Amethyst who asked how they got in there.
 
At first glance, pumping looks crazy. But I wouldn't count it out.

Over the last few years, we've had some crazy rain events that overfilled local area lakes. To save the poorly designed dams, they rolled in pumps and it worked. Just incredible massive volumes of pumped water to bypass the failing structures.

But these were dams that had access roads. They could roll these huge pieces of equipment up to the structures. And then they had relatively short inlet and outlet spans for the hoses.

I'd guess that even with massive resources, the terrain and access is a huge problem. But it sounds like they are trying! One article I read said "hundreds" of pumps. Wow. Just wow! It may work.
 
limeyx said:
Yah but not in zero visibility underwater (when you aren't even a trained diver)

This would be a nightmare (and I am cave trained and have dived caves for 10 years)
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I think many are gaining a slight appreciation of ZERO experience, hazardous diving, blindness underwater challenges experts, and no food for 10 days. Someone upstream mentioned panic, I can only imagine how intense that would be for many people, myself included. I hope some really smart folks figure out the best plan. I'm sure there's no shortage of experts working on this.
 
Today on the news they said that it would take 6 hours to get them from where they are to the surface... so even if there was no water I would say it took at least 3 hours to get back there.... not so smart of a trip..
 
What bothers me is that If any kid gets seriously sick or injured how much medical help can they get in that cave? There don’t seem to be many good options. Maybe a tunnel from the surface like they used for the miners in Chile?
 
Definitely need some out of the box thinking on this one. It appears the scuba diving route is just too risky at this time. Maybe start drilling an access from above for at least a route of entry for food and supplies in order to shelter in place until the water receded or they tunnel a shaft big enough for extraction purposes. Good luck and God speed for the kids as well as the rescuers.
 
Learned that one of the navy divers died after delivering supplies to the trapped team, running out of oxygen on the way back. Terrible, so dangerous.
 
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frayne said:
Definitely need some out of the box thinking on this one.
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How about really out of the box? Maybe a giant pipe (inflatable?) could be fed through the flooded areas, pumped dry, and the kids could crawl through? Yeah, there's the whole issue of how you get a water tight flexible pipe big enough to crawl through 2.5 miles into a cave with sharp rocks and tight conditions. Other than that, it should work. :)

Seriously though, I've seen video of those kids in the cave... in their soccer uniforms (Tee-shirts and shorts). REALLY unprepared to hike/crawl 2.5 miles into a dark and narrow cave.
 
frayne said:
Definitely need some out of the box thinking on this one. It appears the scuba diving route is just too risky at this time. Maybe start drilling an access from above for at least a route of entry for food and supplies in order to shelter in place until the water receded or they tunnel a shaft big enough for extraction purposes. Good luck and God speed for the kids as well as the rescuers.
Click to expand...


According to one news report that is not a valid option right now as they do not know exactly where to drill.... they said the boys are in a small area and if they are a bit off they can miss them...
 
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