Neighbor's Wood Smoke Unbearable; Appears There's No Legal Recourse; What to Do?

[Ready2Go]

A hot fire of dry wood generates very little smoke. It's hard to have a hot fire with green wood, so your theory is correct in that regard. But, you can also have a smoky fire with properly seasoned hardwoods. Just load up the stove and starve it for air. People do this to maximize burn time and reduce trips to reload the stove and, of course, just to have the stove put our less heat. This is especially true with a low tech stove.

Just sayin' that OP could buy his neighbor seasoned hardwood and still have most of the problem depending on how the neighbor runs his stove and what type of stove it is. It couldn't hurt though.

It would take:

1. Good wood
2. Good stove
3. Knowledgeable, interested stove operator willing to do things right.

The way OP has described things, it doesn't sound like there is any straight forward way to make this all happen.

Agree...mostly. Not a smoke expert but I have noticed that the smoke produced by green/wet wood is different. The "wet" smoke is more like steam to me. It tends to float closer to the ground and seems to linger....like in the pics the OP posted. Smoke from dry hardwoods seems to dissipate faster. Again...not an expert but this is what I have observed using a firepit and from neighbors that I know are burning wet/green wood.

 

[NateW]

I just knew this would be an interesting thread right from the title: Suburban folk move to rural area, then complain about rural life. It reminds me of situations here where:
* people complain about farm "smells"
* people complain about chickens (well, specifically roosters)
* people complain about the sound of gunfire in the distance

Even on the home front, the (ex) complained about new houses being proposed down the road (while living in a house that had just been recently built).

OTOH, wood stove operating properly and using seasoned wood should not be putting out smoke all day. I burn between 4-5 full chords of wood per year. I just looked outside and there is no, zero visible smoke coming out. Only when I first start up the stove or for a couple minutes after adding wood.

If your neighbor is splitting up big chunks of wood and then taking them in the house, there is an excellent chance that the wood isn't seasoned properly. In my case, I am using wood cut, split, and stacked early in 2019 and some earlier (2017, 2018). I'm cutting down trees, bucking it up, splitting and stacking wood for the 2021 winter...and even with that I am behind (should have had it done spring of 2020). Fortunately some of what I've been processing is "standing dead" trees (I own 40+ acres of mostly hardwood forest) so I think it can be ready for the next winter.

Someone also mentioned damping the fire down. This could also be an issue (and can be dangerous due to creosote build up). Combine that with green/high moisture content wood and its a bad situation. Not efficient to burn, lots of smoke, can eventually lead to a chimney fire.

Finally, I think the OP is on to something in terms of how much work to keep up a large house. My next move is smaller, and likely to not have any of the toys I've accumulated (lots of land, tractor, trailer, wood stove, steep roof, ...) I can only hope I get someone from the city who wants country life.

Thanks for your comments. He has a rooster and we hear gunshots in the distance, neither of which bother me. He is not using the stove correctly. The fire marshall was supposed to show him how to use the stove, but when the fire marshall visited me, he said, "My family had a wood fired stove as I was growing up and they smoke like that, I'm sorry, there is nothing I can do." All I can hope for is a chimney fire that burns the place down. Don't want the family hurt, just the problem solved.

 

[NateW]

From what I've read here, I would expect the neighbor to be in serious danger of a chimney fire from creosote buildup. I'm a little surprised the fire inspector didn't look at that.

As to the OP's problem, we all make mistakes when choosing where to live. I certainly made my share. Fortunately, it sounds like he will be able to recover from this one.

Yes, I'm surprised the fire marshall did not closely inspect the stove and did not educate about chimney fires (the stove by rare chance was operating with less smoke than usual when the fire marshall visited).

Yes, we will get through this.

 

[NateW]

Sorry to hear that.
In the meantime, you can get a box fan or two and tape some good quality furnace filters to the back of them and help clean the indoor air.

I dealt with neighbor issues in the past and it's nerve wracking at best. Moving might be your best bet and in the end you might come out ahead (maybe a better place or better floor plan, etc).

I got 3 box fans with MERV 13 filters duct taped to them. One draws in outside air.

 

[NateW]

I think OP should move, and it sounds like he is highly considering it.

Why? My sister went through something like this. She started seeing every possible defect in a house they bought and had severe buyer's remorse. The thing is, after a year of fret, it morphed into major depression. If your brain keeps getting bathed in negative thoughts, you are at risk of serious, clinical, major depression. This meant it went way beyond the house. Major depression is not to be taken lightly.

She got out of it through therapy and medical treatment. Part of the treatment was to sell the house, even though it was only 2 1/2 years old. She did, moved a few miles away, and I'm happy to report that she got out of this very scary episode and is doing well 15 years later.

Thanks JoeWras. I can see that happening to me. This has been consuming me over the last couple of weeks, not from an anger perspective, but one of fear and disappointment. Not sure why, but is and perhaps the pandemic has something to do with it. I think a nice day trip with DW down the highway where them air is cleaner would do is good.

 

[NateW]

I don't know what AQI has to do with your situation. Obviously your problem is worse than where the AQI is measured.
That got me wondering if there are personal AQI devices, yes there are.
Here's a review, https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-home-air-quality-monitor/
I don't know how this would help you though, you already know it is bad enough for consideration to move away from it.
It may help monitor air quality while you make improvements to air infiltration.

Thanks Time2, I've wondered if these are available. I'll take a look.

 

[JoeWras]

Thanks JoeWras. I can see that happening to me. This has been consuming me over the last couple of weeks, not from an anger perspective, but one of fear and disappointment. Not sure why, but is and perhaps the pandemic has something to do with it. I think a nice day trip with DW down the highway where them air is cleaner would do is good.

My sister wasn't angry either, just fearful. But she also had small kids and felt latched to the house, which made it more intense. Therefore, I think your suggestion of going on down the highway on a nice day is excellent! Get away from the situation for a while, enjoy some nice air. Maybe you can get to the Blue Ridge parkway or something. A day with sun and crisp winter scenes can do wonders.

 

[pb4uski]

.... As for selling the house, you will have a disclosure issue. You now are fully aware of this issue and denying it will put you at risk financially when the sellers find out. ...

I'm not so sure since the disclosure is of defects with the house, not the neighborhood. For example, if the school that serves that neighborhood was crap... worst in the US.. the seller would not need to disclose that. This smoke issue seems to be more in that category to me than a defect specific to the house.

You need to disclose faults with the property... but not the neighborhood.

 

[Amethyst]

That's what I was trying to think of before. The "fault" is the behavior of an obnoxious neighbor; if those had to be disclosed, nobody would ever sell a home.

You need to disclose faults with the property... but not the neighborhood.

 

[samm]

Legal actions

1. Move
2. Buy & use air filter
3. Talk NICELY to smokey neighbor (who is in the right legally) and see if there is a compromise
4. Buy smokeys house

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

Yes, I'm surprised the fire marshall did not closely inspect the stove

There are probably legal limits as to his "inspection"...you know, that whole due process thing and all.

And wishing their house to burn down? Nice.

 

[Brat]

I agree with the poster that you provide the neighbor properly seasoned wood (starting about a week before you list your house) IN EXCHANGE for what they are using at the moment. You can stack it on your property and tell them that they can have it back when your house sells.

Agree with increasing the efficiency of your air filter system. Short term those stand-alone filter units are great but I would remove them when selling the house.

 

[Aerides]

I'm not so sure since the disclosure is of defects with the house, not the neighborhood. For example, if the school that serves that neighborhood was crap... worst in the US.. the seller would not need to disclose that. This smoke issue seems to be more in that category to me than a defect specific to the house.

You need to disclose faults with the property... but not the neighborhood.

And I think the key here is do not even think of selling By Owner. Wait till Spring, get an agent, and let them price it to sell fast. Do not be home for any showings, do not attend the closing - make this 100% a business transaction, with no opportunity to even be asked things that might slip.

Delete the FB posts now, speak to no other neighbors about it.

 

[statsman]

And I think the key here is do not even think of selling By Owner. Wait till Spring, get an agent, and let them price it to sell fast. Do not be home for any showings, do not attend the closing - make this 100% a business transaction, with no opportunity to even be asked things that might slip.

Delete the FB posts now, speak to no other neighbors about it.

Agreed. Speaking as someone who despised the last house we lived in for 23 years, don't stay. It really doesn't get better. Also realize where you move to might have its own set of annoyances. I'm learning that now, albeit a lot less and more manageable than our previous house.

 

[Bob_Walter]

And I think the key here is do not even think of selling By Owner. Wait till Spring, get an agent, and let them price it to sell fast. Do not be home for any showings, do not attend the closing - make this 100% a business transaction, with no opportunity to even be asked things that might slip.

Delete the FB posts now, speak to no other neighbors about it.

This is one reason when we look at homes, I ask the agent if the owner can be present. They usually comply. My strategy is to have my wife talk to the agent and then I walk around with the owner and complement things around the house and property and then let them do most of the talking. They usually let things slip without knowing.

For example, one house we looked at the owner stated there is small airplane noise due to a small airport being close by...major red flag. He also said there was very strict rules about what can be done with the property such as even cutting a branch on an oak tree. Another major red flag. We ended up passing on that.

Wait till spring, when the air is clear and put it on the market if nothing gets resolved.

 

[NateW]

I'm not so sure since the disclosure is of defects with the house, not the neighborhood. For example, if the school that serves that neighborhood was crap... worst in the US.. the seller would not need to disclose that. This smoke issue seems to be more in that category to me than a defect specific to the house.

You need to disclose faults with the property... but not the neighborhood.

Virginia puts the onus on the buyer to do due diligence and the disclosure statement signed by the seller states he makes no claims as to the fitness of the property and provides warranties or similar wording and notes the buyer should do their due diligence prior to purchase.

 

[statsman]

He also said there was very strict rules about what can be done with the property such as even cutting a branch on an oak tree. Another major red flag. We ended up passing on that.

We see that a lot with the HOAs here in Central Texas. Unfortunately, a lot wasn't spelled out in the area we moved into because the 120 house tract was still in a building phase when we purchased a lot late in 2018. The HOA was held by a holding company and not much other than the basics were spelled out. The last house build completed in May 2020.

So, just this past week we received both an email and snail mail about the rules and regulations for our HOA. Nearly everything outside must be approved by the HOA, and heck, I think if I want to replace some perennials I planted in April of this year, I might need that approved too (they use the word "landscape" to cover themselves).

California has its own set of regulations that drive homeowners up the wall, but I could do just about anything with the landscape I wanted. Replace a tree? No problem. Remove the lawn? No problem. Now, if the yard were to turn into an eyesore or full of weeds, that would get a reaction from city officials.

 

[Ian S]

I think you've come to the right decision: plan a move for Spring/Summer and invest in some mitigation (filtration) for the short term. It would be different if you both loved everything else about the house but that is clearly not the case. No point in trying for a permanent fix for the smoke when the other issues remain.

 

[latexman]

TL,DR all

To exclude the smoke smell infiltration, the RAGAGEP solution is a pressurized interior so the exterior atmosphere will not infiltrate, BUT that requires an uncontaminated source of fresh air, which, sounds like, you do not have!

Therefore, SELL! And next time, beware!

 

[youbet]

All I can hope for is a chimney fire that burns the place down.

That is very, very sick. Just sayin' ........

 

[daylatedollarshort]

If your other neighbors don't seem bothered, have you considered the possibility that you and your wife are more allergic to the smoke than other people? There are ways to potentially reduce allergic reactions with supplements, diet changes and maybe become less sensitive if you can boost body's ability to detoxify allergens better. One of our relatives was really chemically sensitive and we got them over it with correcting some nutritional deficiencies and diet changes.

Not that breathing smoke is healthy, but if you implement some of the other suggestions here like offering to pay for less green wood, filtering your house more and becoming less sensitive to the smoke, you might not have to move. I mean you could move and have the same thing happen again. I remember going to a mesquite barbecue once with friends and I was getting a headache from the smoke while everyone else was having a good time, so I knew it was kind of my issue to work on.

 

[NateW]

...To the OP, I think the suggestions about doing what you can on your property to filter out the smell, and if that is not effective considering moving, are the best. There are always two sides to every internet story of conflict, and one rarely hears both here. I can envision the folks in the "smoke" house (or their family) have been there long before the development. They are not putting up huge fans to intentionally blow the smoke at your house, it is nature doing its thing and they are not responsible for that (at the laws reflect that). Maybe their view is that the traffic, noise, and maybe loss of any natural "views" caused the development is not what they hoped for. They may also see the folks moving into the develop as "rich", and they may be resentful of that - any offers of "I'll buy you good wood/help fix a problem I have with you" may seem condescending. The fact that only you seem to have the issue and it is non-existent or not a big deal to your neighbors does not necessarily make it their problem.

This just may be a case of "I cannot change the other party, so better I change the way I choose to deal with it" - which could be anything from better filters, sealing windows to, in the extreme case, moving. If you are home more due to the pandemic and feel that is why you notice it more, perhaps once the pandemic passes and you can choose to get out more, it will be less of an issue.

Excellent points JollyStomper. I could see how they may not have warm fuzzy feelings about the families living in the big nice new houses all around them. I know I could solve the smoke issue for them if they would let me and if I knew that would be the extent of it, I would, up to and including paying to have installed a new stove or oil furnace, proper flue and wood or oil to fuel it. It would be a win/win, but I am hesitant because I know nothing about their caracter and I feel it could put DW and I at risk by doing so. Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't want to find out.

Also great point about the fact I can and should control what I need to on my side and I can control how I react to situations. That is what I will concentrate on. I do not want to cause problems for this family, I just want to solve the smoke problem to allow DW and I to stay where we are at least long enough to carefully figure out and execute a plan. And solving the problem may be as simple as me installing the Honeywell electronic air cleaner I ordered today. I can't wait until it gets here.

 

[NateW]

....Many people like to overload their stoves and then dial them down so the fire smolders all day giving off minimal heat but then takes less loading and tending and is always on as theirs might be difficult to relight. Give them a reason why to work with you so they have a benefit and they might play ball.

I believe that is one of the reasons how stove smokes most times. Fire marshall agreed too.

 

[NateW]

Did you mention that your fireplace draws combustion air from outside? Is that a potential leak point that needs to be addressed?

FWIW, I sold my house in 3 days in late March, the deal fell thru due to pandemic issues, we re-listed and sold in 5 days in late April. Real estate is moving quickly in many parts of the country so if you do want to sell the pandemic should not hold you back. Of course, in your region of the country things may be different.

I still think going and talking with the neighbor as has been suggested may be the best solution in the immediate term. Then, moving since you don't like the house in the short to medium term. Have you contacted a real estate agent or began the process of interviewing them? We went with an agent that staged our home for sale and we feel that helped move it quickly.

Thanks HarveyS. Well, I knew about one of the air leaks in the house. It was in the direct vent gas fireplace. I sealed many leaks in the fireplace upon moving in, most were plumbing and electrical penetrations, but one good sized one remained allusive. I tried again tonight to find it. I spent 5 minutes looking with my head in the fireplace and my throat became raw and my eyes began to sting and oddly, the back of my neck began to burn, as did my mouth from the smoke seepage. This has me quite worried, as he may be burning something very toxic. I gave up on finding the air leak, but fixed it (see photo)! I did turn off the fireplace gas valve before sealing with plastic and packing tape.

That is good to know about the house sales. We plan to use the agent that worked with us when buying our current house. The house next to ours and the one across the street both sold quickly this year (I do wonder why they placed on the market, though.

We just need to carefully select the next location.

 

[NateW]

It sounds like you’ve made the decision to sell, which I totally understand. Regarding all of the stuff other than the smoke, I honestly think every house will come with some negatives, and many are really hard to know ahead of time. Maybe we need a ‘what do/did you not like about your house thread!’ It really ends up being a matter of balance, where the things you love outweigh the rest.

Our last house was 500 ft from a major freeway, though tucked in the trees, so you would never know. And there was no direct sunlight into the home. Even though I was super sensitive to freeway noise, we loved the house and I thought I would get used to it. Nope. And it got worse as we had a family and wanted to be outside.

Our new house is silent, but for the sound of mowers and blowers. It’s wonderful. And the sun streams in the bedroom and kitchen most of the morning. We love it here. But it has those vaulted ceilings you mention and is a lot to take care of. We may feel differently 10 yrs from now, but for now, the positives SO outweigh any negatives.

Thanks tb001 yes a house hunting thread would be great. I identify with your freeway comment.

I'm just glad that I am able to share this not so common issue so others are aware of it. I hope I save someone on this list from a bunch of grief.