Hurricane Ida

[mebden]

You would need a ground-mounted horizontal propane tank of 500 gal. It looks like a fat submarine, and is 10' long.

Yes if I ever put in a whole house generator I would definitely have back up propane but I’m watching the neighbors natural gas generator and he doesn’t seem to be having any trouble with his I will ask him when I get a chance

 

[ShokWaveRider]

Nice to hear our affected members are doing OK. Not sure what Parish WR2 is in. MedBen sounds like a very lucky member. Great news all round.

 

[GTFan]

You would need a ground-mounted horizontal propane tank of 500 gal. It looks like a fat submarine, and is 10' long.

Out of curiosity how long could a full tank power a 10kw or so gen? Sounds like you'd need a month given the extensive transmission line damage there. Propane is the main heating fuel in the sticks here btw, we have family west of the ATL that uses it. They have a whole-house propane gen.

I lived in Houma as a teenager, my stepbrother still lives there. He evac'd to my Dad's house in the FL panhandle, don't think he'll be back to Houma soon. Was sad to see that the eyewall was only 5 miles or so east of there.

 

[Souschef]

A generator that can run on propane is more useful.
Propane doesn't "go bad" like gasoline.

True, but I us e a stabilizer in my gas.

 

[ERD50]

Out of curiosity how long could a full tank power a 10kw or so gen? Sounds like you'd need a month given the extensive transmission line damage there. Propane is the main heating fuel in the sticks here btw, we have family west of the ATL that uses it.

I lived in Houma as a teenager, my stepbrother still lives there. He evac'd to my Dad's house in the FL panhandle, don't think he'll be back to Houma soon. Was sad to see that the eyewall was only 5 miles or so east of there.

Well, internet says that a gallon of propane provides 27 kWh, consider efficiency... wait.

This site:

https://www.generac.com/generaccorp...erators-guardian-9kw-11kw_spec-sheet-2017.pdf

rates consumption for 9/11KW units as ~ .9 to 2 gallons/hour at 1/2 and full load. So ~ 1G/hour for a 10 kW unit at half load, 500 hours, 20 days! More than I thought. An I doubt people would run it 24 hours, as noted you can run a freezer 50% of the time and it should maintain temps pretty well, that's about how often they cycle normally.

Ahh, so efficiency is 5kWh/27kWh, 18.5% overall (and would have been about my ballpark estimate) - not bad for something designed for intermittent use, IMO. You need to diesel to get much higher I think.

edit/add: Oddly, the larger 11KW unit is less efficient than the 9 KW unit? In each case it uses ~ 44% more fuel, for ~ 22% more power? A higher compression ratio on the larger unit (9.5 vs 9.0) should help efficiency - but the larger is two cylinder vs one. Hmmm, so that means more combustion chamber surface area to absorb heat away from useful work, leading to lower efficiency (and also more friction loss with 2 cylinders)? Can any of the car guys (or gals) confirm that?

-ERD50

 

[W2R]

Nice to hear our affected members are doing OK. Not sure what Parish WR2 is in. MedBen sounds like a very lucky member. Great news all round.

Not sure the context of your question, but here's the answer:

We are in east Jefferson Parish, a few blocks from Lake Ponchartrain and 1-2 miles from the 17th Street Canal (which is the official New Orleans City & Parish boundary line, and also the exact location where the flood walls broke during Hurricane Katrina). Very urban part of the New Orleans area, which is to our advantage I'd think since that might give our neighborhood a bit higher priority than some as the restoration of power and water progress.

Elevation of my house is 2.4 feet below sea level, which is higher than was previously thought until recent surveys. This is actually one of the very highest elevations in the entire region. We are also within the New Orleans flood protection system and levees, "in the soupbowl".

 

[ShokWaveRider]

Not sure the context of your question, but here's the answer:

We are in east Jefferson Parish, a few blocks from Lake Ponchartrain and 1-2 miles from the 17th Street Canal (which is the official New Orleans City & Parish boundary line, and also the exact location where the flood walls broke during Hurricane Katrina). Very urban part of the New Orleans area, which is to our advantage I'd think since that might give our neighborhood a bit higher priority than some as the restoration of power and water progress.

Elevation of my house is 2.4 feet below sea level, which is higher than was previously thought until recent surveys. This is actually one of the very highest elevations in the entire region. We are also within the New Orleans flood protection system and levees, "in the soupbowl".

Thanks for the answer, that is what I meant. I was simply curious. Really glad you are all good (as can be under these circumstances)

I was looking at the affects on different parishes and wondering where you were. That is all.

 

[W2R]

Thanks for the answer, that is what I meant. I was simply curious. Really glad you are all good (as can be under these circumstances)

I was looking at the affects on different parishes and wondering where you were. That is all.

Thank you. From what I'm told, most of my suburb was hit pretty hard and we were just lucky. Well, maybe. We haven't actually *seen* our houses in person yet. It's always possible that there is more damage that Frank's sister didn't notice.

Also, I meant to say that the 17th Street Canal is the official New Orleans City & Orleans Parish boundary line. The Parish that includes New Orleans, and nothing more, is called Orleans Parish (not New Orleans Parish), but I phrased it incorrectly. Oops.

 

[38Chevy454]

rates consumption for 9/11KW units as ~ .9 to 2 gallons/hour at 1/2 and full load. So ~ 1G/hour for a 10 kW unit at half load, 500 hours, 20 days!

-ERD50

Just clarification, propane tanks are only filled to 80%. So 400 gal is full on a 500 gal tank.

 

[NW-Bound]

If I were to set up my home for long periods of power outage, I would have a smaller generator of perhaps 2-5 kW charging a large lithium battery, which then feeds inverters.

It would be similar to the 34-kWh battery I have now, and 4 inverters of 2.4 kW each. The reason for so many inverters is so that they can handle the momentary load when multiple appliances happened to be turned on simultaneously.

Even in hot days with a high of less than 110F, my 24-hour consumption is only 50 kWh or less, with air conditioning provided by 2 mini-splits (5-ton central AC turned off). It means a 2.5 kW generator running constantly will be enough, with the lithium battery serving as the storage buffer. A smaller generator will be more efficient in terms of gallons of fuel per kWh. However, a generator larger than 2.5 kW will allow me to turn it off at night, because it produces in excess of usage during the day, and builds up the charge in the battery.

And in an emergency, I am sure I can manage to get by with less than 50 kWh/day.

 

[Jerry1]

If I were to set up my home for long periods of power outage, I would have a smaller generator of perhaps 2-5 kW charging a large lithium battery, which then feeds inverters.

It would be similar to the 34-kWh battery I have now, and 4 inverters of 2.4 kW each. The reason for so many inverters is so that they can handle the momentary load when multiple appliances happened to be turned on simultaneously.

Even in hot days with a high of less than 110F, my 24-hour consumption is only 50 kWh or less, with air conditioning provided by 2 mini-splits (5-ton central AC turned off). It means a 2.5 kW generator running constantly will be enough, with the lithium battery serving as the storage buffer. A smaller generator will be more efficient in terms of gallons of fuel per kWh. However, a generator larger than 2.5 kW will allow me to turn it off at night, because it produces in excess of usage during the day, and builds up the charge in the battery.

And in an emergency, I am sure I can manage to get by with less than 50 kWh/day.

That would be cool to be set up that way during power outages. Of course almost no one is, but maybe in the future. Your point is well taken. Everyone thinks having a generator is the saving grace in a power outage. Unfortunately, the power outage just shifts the burden to the next fuel source. It's pretty hard to store enough fuel of any type, but especially gasoline, to run a generator for a week or more.

Also, one of the problems with a generator, is they don't have a buffer like your battery would handle. They have to run even if just a few lights are on and be ready to handle a refrigerator starting a cycle. Forget about trying to run a standard AC unit.

In our last power outage that lasted over 4 days, we had trouble iwth our generator. We were swapping a small (2000W Honda) generator with my daughter. They had a 5500W generator that wasn't working but when my whole house went down, we got that 5500W generator running. We left it at my daughters house and the first thing my son in law said the next morning is "man, that thing sucks gas!" That little Honda runs 8-12 hours on a few gallons of gas. The bigger one goes through about a 1/2 gal per hour on a light load.

 

[NW-Bound]

I don't even have a generator now, as the power source for charging the big lithium battery is an array of 7.8 kW of solar panels.

Power outage is rare where I am, but if it happens and the PV array does not provide enough, I can run a long and beefy cord from the Onan 4-kW generator in my class C motorhome to the shed where the solar equipment is.

The fuel consumption of this generator is 0.3 gal/hr no load, 0.5 gal/hr half load, 0.7 full load. Obviously, if the generator is not the inverter type, I will want to load it up to charge the battery, then turn it off. Charging the 34-kWh battery with a 4-kW generator will take around 9 hours, and more than 6 gallons.

The more people think about this, the more they realize grid power is so cheap.

But back on hurricane preparation, all this equipment is hard if not impossible to protect from wind and flood damage. You don't win!

 

[NewEnglander]

This storm isn't over yet. Massive flooding in NYC, NJ, Southern CT this afternoon and evening, the video coming out is sickening.
I think the amount of $ in damages may eclipse even Sandy and Irene for this area

We just got 2 inches of rain in 30 minutes and it's still coming down at that rate!

 

[Sunset]

This storm isn't over yet. Massive flooding in NYC, NJ, Southern CT this afternoon and evening, the video coming out is sickening.
I think the amount of $ in damages may eclipse even Sandy and Irene for this area

We just got 2 inches of rain in 30 minutes and it's still coming down at that rate!

Wow.... I checked the weather channel, and it's very bad in places.
Hope the rain stops for you soon.

 

[Scuba]

Harllee, thanks for thinking of us. According to the NHC (see attached graphic) it looks like West Memphis, Arkansas, isn't going to get hit that hard. We are thinking, "so what if it rains". This motel room is nice and reasonably priced, so we are tentatively planning to stay.



Ivinsfan is right; every single family in the entire metro will be clamoring for roofers and so on. We may just have to be patient about getting any damage fixed.



And thanks, Scuba! I hope you are right and we have little to no damage. We'll find out once we get home. So far the reports from our immediate neighborhood have been encouraging.

I was going to ask you if anyone stayed and could check on your home. One problem with staying away for so long is that if you got water in your house and leave it alone for 3 weeks, it likely will grow a lot of mold. This happened to our landlord in St. Thomas. They stayed for Hurricane Irma in 2017, then evacuated for Maria. Maria caused a lot of water damage and they had to do extensive mold remediation that could have been avoided or mitigated if they had been able to get back there sooner.

I grew up in hurricane country so I know it is difficult living without power and water, but I would not want to wait that long to see the condition of my home.

Anyway I wish you and F the best!

 

[NW-Bound]

Flooding of streets and subway in NYC:

 

[Scuba]

The standard 6' wood fence across the back of my yard blew down. But it belongs to my back neighbor, not me! So I'm sure he'll deal with it.

His sister says it's too soon to come back - - no gas anywhere, so her generator is just sitting there.

The neighbor on the other side of F had two trees blow down, but neither landed on his property. We're happy.

P.S. - - just saw the photos.

The fence that fell down, fell into my yard, but it belongs to the neighbor, so I won't have to clean it up.

The big tree hanging over F's yard did not fall down.

There are a few roof shingles in our yards, and lots of small branches and such, but that will be less to deal with than we feared.

My detached garage did not collapse either!

Our roofs may or may not have lost a few shingles, but they are basically intact. We are so relieved!

That’s awesome!! No flooding/rising water either, right? That often causes the biggest mess. I didn’t realize in my previous post that you were a Katrina veteran so you know all of this and more already!

 

[W2R]

That’s awesome!! No flooding/rising water either, right? That often causes the biggest mess. I didn’t realize in my previous post that you were a Katrina veteran so you know all of this and more already!

Thanks, I think it's awesome too! And yes, no flooding on our block AFAIK. Apparently all the devices measuring rainfall there were blown away, but Frank's sister didn't mention flooding when she went over there. There's so much left for us to check out when we get back. If we have water in the house from flooding, or from roof leaks that could be a problem.

Yes, we went through Katrina 16 years ago. That time we evacuated to Huntsville, Alabama.

It's hard to tell, but from what we are reading and have been told, we think that probably Ida is going to be a piece o' cake compared with Katrina. Hard to know for sure until we get back and can see the damage (or lack of same) in person.

Some parts of New Orleans already got power back, only three days after the storm!! Not our house but that's still really encouraging.

We are tentatively planning to wait until we at least have power and water, before we return. We just extended our reservations at the motel for another week, but they said if it turned out we wanted to check out earlier or later that would be perfectly fine. They have been so helpful.

 

[Andre1969]

Well I learned yesterday, not to take Mother Nature for granted. Usually hurricanes are no big deal by the time they get to Maryland. Just a lot of rain and a little wind. If you're on the coast (Atlantic or Chesapeake Bay) or in areas with lots of hills and ravines that are prone to flooding you can have problems, and there's always the possibility a tree will come down.

But, when Ida came through yesterday, this time it spawned a tornado not far from me. I think it started a bit southwest of Annapolis, like Edgewater/Londontowne area, but then moved on to Arnold, and Pasadena. It was probably within 5 miles of me at one point, but all we got was a lot of rain. Not even much wind. But, my housemate was working in Annapolis, and he said it was pretty scary. And on the way home, some of the areas he went by looked like a war zone.

Now, I don't know if it was one tornado or multiple tornadoes. I know sometimes a tornado will almost die off, but then re-spawn moments later, but I don't know if they count that as the same tornado or a new one.

But, I think I'm going to start taking these things a bit more seriously in the future. I saw the tornado warning alert on my phone, but it's gotten to the point they'll call almost anything a "warning" these days. It's like every time Mother Nature farts, it's the Shot Heard 'Round The World. There's just so much meaningless noise out there online, and with these text alerts, that it's getting easy to ignore the real emergencies. Hell, the other night I couldn't sleep and was up in the middle of the night watching an old "Barnaby Jones" rerun. 4:30 or so in the morning, and a weather alert banner comes across the top of the screen, along with the associated racket and voiceovers, warning of possible flash flooding in places over an hour away!

Anyway, my thoughts go out to those who were affected by Ida, the tornadoes it spawned, and other pain and suffering it caused. And I'm thankful that I wasn't affected. But, if that storm system had shifted just a few miles to the West...

Next time the phone tells me to get down in the basement, I think I might take it a bit more seriously.

 

[street]

Flooding of streets and subway in NYC:

WOW!!!
So much black top and cement doesn't help either. At some point the water needs to go into earth. It might have to look for miles on end, to find green to exit.

 

[ERD50]

Just clarification, propane tanks are only filled to 80%. So 400 gal is full on a 500 gal tank.

Thanks. I know that propane tanks are only partially filled with liquid, they need to leave room for expansion. But I haven't used propane much, so I wasn't sure if the tank size ratings were gross or net.

So that takes my rough ~ 20 day estimate times 400/500 to ~ 16 days.

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

WOW!!!
So much black top and cement doesn't help either. At some point the water needs to go into earth. It might have to look for miles on end, to find green to exit.

Manhattan is an island, and one would think the water could easily drain to the bay. I guess there may not be much of an elevation from the streets to the sea level, plus the subway is below the sea level.

Just last month, I happened to see a video of flooding in a city in China, not far from Wuhan. Subways and also tunnels for cars were flooded, and people drowned. There was a video of subway passengers standing in the tram, with water up to their chest!

I hope the video poster survived. People often post live, and the video taken with their phones often outlives them. What a horrible sight!

PS. The Chinese government tried to suppress the news. However, some videos got out via social media.

 

[Koolau]

Does anyone understand what "feeds" a storm like Ida so that it is still so destructive after crossing such a long distance? I sort of understand the energy source over warm oceans, but what about "dry" land? What allows a storm to remain so destructive? I know that the moisture is drawn up just like any major weather system from either the gulf or the atlantic. But what "powers" the storm itself?

 

[NW-Bound]

Here's the video of the subway flood in China.

The world has seen some unprecedented catastrophes this year. The Dixie fire in California is still burning after more than a month, but the 1 million acres of all the California fires pale beside Siberia fire's 21 million acres.

 

[Aerides]

Does anyone understand what "feeds" a storm like Ida so that it is still so destructive after crossing such a long distance? I sort of understand the energy source over warm oceans, but what about "dry" land? What allows a storm to remain so destructive? I know that the moisture is drawn up just like any major weather system from either the gulf or the atlantic. But what "powers" the storm itself?

They don't really feed much after hitting land, other than other weather systems in the atmosphere, but the stronger the storm, the further/longer it can go. A slow moving Cat 1 isn't going 7 states, but a fast moving Cat 4 can go further on momentum and atmosphere.