I got a new prospective on the antiwork movement

[Mr._Graybeard]

Actually we are moving into a new age where those who are skilled and willing to work with their hands will be making top dollar.

One reason for this is the current push for kids to go to college instead of vocational schools because college graduates make more money. The question I have not seen answered is why, just because we double the number of college graduates, we would expect the number of higher paying jobs to also double. Creating college graduates does not automatically create jobs.

No doubt that we've schooled our population to the point where people who might have worked on construction or in a factory now are qualified for professional work. And yeah, the building trades need workers badly. The factories have shut down, though. A lot of people with degrees picked them up when they lost manufacturing jobs and retrained for the service industries.

I do think the senior end of the labor force diminished because of Covid-19, which has opened up opportunities for younger workers. Many people moved up their retirement timetables. That is a factor in why the shortage became so acute.

 

[Chuckanut]

"Hard work doesn't pay sh!t and never has. Ever see a sheetrocker driving a new caddy?"

No. But, a neighbor of mine hired a father son team to do some brick and stone work at his new home. The guys work hard and are real artists. The Dad drove a Caddy, and the son a Jaguar. But, not to work.

 

[Koolau]

In the discussion of w*rk and compensation "fairness" folks either forget or ignore that the basic law of supply and demand still reigns. We've tried and tried to deny or even outlaw that law but it eventually resurfaces as a reality. Certain skill levels are more valuable than others. Another way to say it is: "If it were easy, anyone could do it." YMMV

 

[jollystomper]

No. But, a neighbor of mine hired a father son team to do some brick and stone work at his new home. The guys work hard and are real artists. The Dad drove a Caddy, and the son a Jaguar. But, not to work.

Reminds me of a friend who worked as a general contractor/handyman, including putting up drywall. If you saw his work truck you would want to take pity on him. It ran fine, but was old, not shiny new.

But he knew his stuff and did very well. In the 3 car garage attached to his 3000+ square foot home on 2 acres his family had nice cars .

He retired because he felt he "had enough money" and still had his health. But he still tinkers, when he feels like it and it does not cut in too much into his retirement time with his family.

 

[sengsational]

Getting billed out for 10x what they're paying you is nothing new. As a college grad that moved up at a decent pace at the megacorp, I felt golden handcuffed to stay, as the risk to make the jump was too great. But when I was at a smaller company and insisted they stick to the life balance related terms when I joined, they kicked me to the curb. I went right to the clients and offered the same service for half price, and they jumped at that offer. When's the last time the company offered a 5-fold salary increase?

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

There's nothing new under the sun. I was lazy 50 years ago (and 40 and 30 and...).

+1. Reminds me of an article from a few years ago about "busyness" and the uselessness of it all.

https://archive.nytimes.com/opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/06/30/the-busy-trap/

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

I think it is long overdue for the worker, especially blue-collar worker, to stand up and say enough is enough. Paying them relatively low wages for the most difficult work while the owners are getting several times as much money has gone too far for too long.

Or...go out and do it on your own. It has never been easier to market a service with so many ways to get your name out there. A neighbor of ours is a plumber. He w*rked for someone for a few years and decided to open up his own shop. 3 years later, he has a fleet of 15 trucks and 20'ish employees.

Hard work doesn't pay sh!t and never has. Ever see a sheetrocker driving a new caddy?

Have you seen the television series "Renovation Island"? Construction dude started his own business a number of years ago. Bought a resort in the Bahamas and renovated it. Owns a nice house in Florida with a couple of planes in the hanger (fly in community) outside West Palm Beach. I don't think he's even 50 years old, yet. So, yes...hard work can indeed pay very, VERY well.

 

[OldShooter]

Getting billed out for 10x what they're paying you is nothing new. ...

I think those kind of numbers are really a red herring. Assuming a competitive market, an employer billing at 10x labor costs is getting the big numbers because he is providing something more than just bodies. Maybe a pipeline or oil rig job, underwater work, etc. where a large capital investment is required, large cost to feed and house a crew, harsh environments with consequent costs, etc. Most of the 9x direct labor will be going to other costs similar to costs his competitors have too. If all competitors didn't have similar costs, the low cost suppliers will be at less than 10x.

Exceptions abound, of course, in markets that are not competitive. Corruption, nepotism, artificial barriers to entry, etc.

SpaceX might be an extreme example. I'll bet they are billing out those launches at thousands of times the direct labor dollars that they are paying the crew.

 

[GenXguy]

It does seem like the current "Great Resignation" and labor shortage started about the time that the enhanced COVID unemployment benefits were in full swing. But, what's interesting and puzzling is that the labor shortage has persisted, and even gotten more profound, long after all those programs ended. Surely, by now (IMHO, at least) most people would need to work again purely for financial reasons if nothing else. Given everything we heard about how a $500 auto repair bill would be a financial crisis for the majority of Americans in pre-COVID days, I just don't see how people can still afford the luxury of not working or being so incredibly picky and choosy about their employment, years after the last COVID-related assistance checks were sent out.

That's what I always think when I hear about these young people that won't work. OK, what's the alternative for getting by? Living with your parents? With inflation as bad as it is, I would expect even more incentive to work so that you can pay the ever increasing costs of most things.

 

[Koolau]

I think it is long overdue for the worker, especially blue-collar worker, to stand up and say enough is enough. Paying them relatively low wages for the most difficult work while the owners are getting several times as much money has gone too far for too long.

This is part of the capitalist system. It's not about fair or unfair, it's about what the person/company putting up the capital is willing to pay a w*rker for a service and what a w*rker is willing to take for his/her services. Usually, this can be w*rked out. Occasionally, it can not - then there is a paradigm shift.

Has anyone been to a McDonalds (or Burger King or Wendys) lately? If so, how do you order your food? Probably at a Kiosk. As you suggested, the w*rkers stood up and said enough is enough. We want $15 for what we used to do for $9. McD said, okay, we'll put in Kiosks to do your J*b. It was nothing personal, just business. Things don't happen in a vacuum. McD could "afford" $9/hour or $25K (or whatever - I have no idea) for a Kiosk that receives no wage. That is a paradigm shift. Such things have happened throughout history. Cars used to be made by hand. Now they're primarily built by robots. Skilled robot "handlers" (wranglers??) get paid a lot more than the old nut tightener, but there are far fewer wranglers than tighteners. Paradigm shift. Money goes where it makes money. That's capitalism. Not right, wrong, good, bad. It just is. YMMV

 

[Montclairbobbyb]

Sign of the times?

I believe what we may be observing in younger generations regarding "work ethic", willingness to "pay dues" and sticking to long term career goals may be more based on WHEN they grew up. The younger generations grew up during pretty stable economic times, versus our parents, who lived through (or participated in) WWII, Korea, Vietnam, The Great Depression and generally faced greater economic challenges. Hard work and "stick-to-it-ness" was a basic necessity just to keep food on the table. I hope I inherited some of that work ethic from my parents' generation, and I hope I passed it on to my kids... but times are different today.

As times get more difficult (and we may be on the cusp of more difficult economic and geopolitical challenges), I expect we may see the youngers begin to adopt the past work habits of the elders, simply because they have to.

But then again, here I am, retired at 60, now 64, yet still able to work. Maybe I should roll up my sleeves and go back to work... After all, what would my (deceased) Depression-Era parents think?

 

[Time2]

I believe what we may be observing in younger generations regarding "work ethic", willingness to "pay dues" and sticking to long term career goals may be more based on WHEN they grew up. The younger generations grew up during pretty stable economic times, versus our parents, who lived through (or participated in) WWII, Korea, Vietnam, The Great Depression and generally faced greater economic challenges. Hard work and "stick-to-it-ness" was a basic necessity just to keep food on the table. I hope I inherited some of that work ethic from my parents' generation, and I hope I passed it on to my kids... but times are different today.

As times get more difficult (and we may be on the cusp of more difficult economic and geopolitical challenges), I expect we may see the youngers begin to adopt the past work habits of the elders, simply because they have to.

But then again, here I am, retired at 60, now 64, yet still able to work. Maybe I should roll up my sleeves and go back to work... After all, what would my (deceased) Depression-Era parents think?

They would probably ask if you are sure you have enough money!

 

[jimbee]

Big surprise, companies still treating their workers like crap and old farts patting themselves on the back for putting up with it decades ago.

 

[NameTaken2]

Story regarding job-hoppers-
Residential HVAC guy told me they just lost 3 techs to a commercial outfit that's in a blitz hiring mode after winning a big contract. The techs were smitten with the provided incentive of a $10K bonus after 1 year, and before leaving refused an offered $2 raise and other standard enhancements to retain them.

He said the game being played by the commercial firms is that they complete the projects in 7-8 mos with their inflated workforce, then they lay everyone off. The bonus is never paid.
He said he's seen this several times and told the departed workers what to expect, but they couldn't be swayed.

He also said they just hired a kid out of BOCES after he did an unpaid internship, but that's unusual because they don't value the basid BOCES HVAC training (left to train on the job). Therefore, most of their hires are off the street. If that's a common perspective, a shame that some kids may waste 6-12mos and $10K or more on BOCES HVAC training that may not improve their chances as much as they think.

No expert on the topic, but the trades in general appear to offer a great opportunity for someone willing to roll up their sleeves and work hard while paying their dues, vs. $$$ for a college degree and graduating with a huge debt to pay off.

 

[NXR7]

I must have worked for his brother.

We were all working well over 40 hours a week (salaried so no OT pay).
One guy asked to take 1/2 day off to go to a relative's funeral. He got the OK, but when the boss reviewed his time sheet he told the employee he had to take 1/2 of a vacation day to cover his time off.

The employee exploded! In no uncertain terms he told the boss that he had already worked over 40 hours that week week even with the time off. Why in the world did he need to cover the time at the funeral with vacation days when he was already over 40 hours? The boss relented, I think because he feared we all might become clock watchers in retaliation.

As an attorney once told me "A person who does not know their rights has no rights."

In the USA people classified as salaried exempt (exempt from overtime) are paid based on the tasks they complete, not the time they put in. It is a violation of federal labor law to dock someone like that if they are salaried exempt. But many managers know their people don't know that.

Happened to me once and I simply stood up from the chair and said "In case you're looking for me, I'll be in HR explaining why I am filing a formal complaint with the Department of Labor." I then walked out of his office while he was telling me to calm down.

I walked straight to HR and talked to them. They got it and asked me to let them handle the situation. I agreed but said I would only let them handle it once. If it happened again I would not even give them the courtesy of letting them know first.

Ray

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Americans on Reddit, especially the antiwork subreddit, are exposed to what the work environments, lay off policies, heath care costs, vacation times, after hours calls, etc. are like in other developed countries, and guess what, we aren't exactly #1, at least in most of the more positive aspects. In my megacorp job I was paid well but always on call and I hated that aspect. I was once asked to come back into work after just getting out of a trip to the ER and on doctor's bed rest orders. They wanted me to call the doctor at the hospital, insist I felt fine (I didn't), and ask him to change his orders so I could go into work for an "important" meeting.

One of our adults kids and a friend from work were visiting recently for the week. One got a text to come into work, which was hours away, on their vacation, which had been approved and scheduled weeks earlier. This type of expectation is one of the main complaints on the antiwork forum. They just said no, their vacation was approved and planned weeks before. It is nice they can do that now with the unemployment rate so low and not have to worry about losing their jobs, or easily finding something else if they do get fired.

 

[Chuckanut]

SpaceX might be an extreme example. I'll bet they are billing out those launches at thousands of times the direct labor dollars that they are paying the crew.

I would think SpaceX would have many other big costs besides labor that go into pricing each launch.

 

[JBTX]

While perhaps not totally on point with the OP, at this point unemployment is back to pre pandemic lows, and labor participation rate, when adjusted for aging demographics is back to the post 2016 average. Much of the pandemic labor phenomena have mostly exhausted themselves.

https://www.brookings.edu/2022/08/0...arket-keep-making-gains-in-participation/amp/

At this point demographics is causing a tighter labor market, and when labor markets are tighter employees can be more selective about what they do, what they make and how they work. This trend will likely continue in the developed world due to demographics, and could be a cause of modestly higher inflation going forward.

 

[Chuckanut]

Years ago I worked for a certain big company. Every computer shop I had ever worked in had rotating on-call lists in case something went wrong at night or over the weekend. People were free to trade on-call weeks as long as they kept the manager notified. Worker also knew the on-call weeks at least 3 months ahead of time so they could schedule around them or arrange a swap earlier.

But, this mega-corp insisted we all be on-call all the time. I protested. Not even my doctor is on call all the time. His practice rotated the on-call physician. Then we were told we could not go far from home or be out of pager range (yes, pagers) even on weekends, just in case we were needed. We needed to be 100% reachable all the time, and no more than a 1.5 hour drive away from the work site. My partner (among others) had no problems with this. He even bought several extra sets of rechargeable batteries for his company pager so it would always be on. Me? I found another job. So I suppose that in the eyes of many who worked there, I was the slacker, the lazy bum, and the anti-work guy.

 

[OldShooter]

I would think SpaceX would have many other big costs besides labor that go into pricing each launch.

Exactly my point.

 

[SecondAttempt]

I got as far as the welder's complaint about him making $20+ per hour and the company charging $200/hr for his time. (felt he wasn't paid enough based on the upcharge for his work)

Seems like he forgot that the company has costs of the business and that all that difference in billing rate was not pure profit. Also, the business has "risks" and those risks are insured thru the revenue from the billed rates.

I heard enough.

Of course, this is true. But benefits are usually about 1/3 of salary, overhead (facilities, tools, etc.) about 20%, profit maybe 25% at most so burdened billed rate would be less than double the workers hourly rate. Still, I have never heard of a welder making only $20/hr if (s)he has certs. As an engineer I was usually billed at about twice my hourly wage. Ten times is way out of line.

 

[SecondAttempt]

But, this mega-corp insisted we all be on-call all the time. I protested. Not even my doctor is on call all the time. His practice rotated the on-call physician. Then we were told we could not go far from home or be out of pager range (yes, pagers) even on weekends, just in case we were needed. We needed to be 100% reachable all the time, and no more than a 1.5 hour drive away from the work site. My partner (among others) had no problems with this. He even bought several extra sets of rechargeable batteries for his company pager so it would always be on. Me? I found another job. So I suppose that in the eyes of many who worked there, I was the slacker, the lazy bum, and the anti-work guy.

There was a lawsuit 30-40 years ago that required employees on call to be paid at least minimum wage while on call. I workedd for the organization that was sued although I was not impacted. Not sure if it was state or federal though. This radically changed the organization's on-call policy as I'm sure you can imagine.

 

[JoeWras]

Americans on Reddit, especially the antiwork subreddit,

Read it sometime. This is a worldwide movement. The subreddit is an English language sub, so sometimes others aren't as comfortable participating. But the Brits? Oh yeah, they have plenty to say on that sub. Actually, after reading it, I sometimes wonder if it is worse over there.

 

[JoeWras]

There was a lawsuit 30-40 years ago that required employees on call to be paid at least minimum wage while on call. I workedd for the organization that was sued although I was not impacted. Not sure if it was state or federal though. This radically changed the organization's on-call policy as I'm sure you can imagine.

The last nail in my working coffin was being asked to work on Thanksgiving and Christmas -- not on call, but just developing software in order to hit some mythical impossible schedule the following summer. I nearly lost my mind.

A few of us dug deep, deep, deep into the company policies and found a policy that said we should be paid a nominal amount even though we were exempt. The on-call thing was in there too. I brought it up to the boss. He was mortified to see this because he didn't want to talk to his boss, who was the instigator of all this nonsense. That guy came from a different culture where literal sweatshops are the norm, so we just didn't want to poke this bear.

My boss was a kind man and he found some other ways to get us extra vacation time on our books. I was not happy, but satisfied enough with this because I knew the banked vacation would pay out when I pulled the plug a few months later. There was no way I could use it since they literally wanted us to work all the time. But it would pay out when I quit.

I pulled the plug. My boss transferred out of that hellish department shortly after.

In retrospect, as I was pulling the plug, I should have put a complaint in with ER on the a-hole sweatshop middle manager.

 

[68bucks]

A couple of my observations. I think a lot of the anti work group is the young crowd not long out of school. To me it seems like kids live at home a lot longer than kids that came of age in the 60's - 80's. I graduated high school in the late 70's and moved out whe I turned 18. I know a lot of kids that didn't move out till they were in their 30's. It's a lot easier to walk away from a job when you have a roof over your head, food in the fridge, and no responsibilities. Also back in the late 70's through the 80's jobs were scarce and good jobs where really scarce. So if you got one you did whatever necessary to keep it. Work long hours, hot durty work, put up with bad bosses, whatever. And if you had a young family you would walk through fire to make sure you kept that good paying job because it was very uncertain if you could find another one. You certainly didn't just walk away from a good job.