The Electric Vehicle Thread

[Koolau]

I disagree, I really think it is a waste of money buying an electric car (today) as the tech is really not there yet. Unless YOU own one of course. Watch some long-term reviews about owning electric cars. The math simply does not work. Unless it makes you feel good of course. Early adopters always bear the brunt of the costs.

Do the math. Cost of car, costs of all expenses, installing fast chargers etc. divided by the miles. My neighbor has had one (Tesla model S) for 5 years and still says he has not got his money's worth.

I guess MY problem with EVs (other than the obvious ones that most here would agree to some extent - such as charging on long trips, deep-freeze charging, charging in areas hit hard by limited electricity, etc.) is that I can only compare the initial cost to the cost of a used car - because that's all I buy. I'm sure there will be lots of used EVs eventually and I'm guessing the prices will come down on them BUT it will take a while until folks are ready to buy a used, 10 year old EV with 80K on it because they'll worry about the battery life.

I've mentioned many times that my Buick cost me $5K when it was 12 years old and had 70K on it. I just hit 100K and never spent more than a few hundred in any year keeping it going (dumb stuff like electric window winder, a couple of coils, a verdammte horn system, etc.) Nothing big - nothing real expensive. With no collision, my insurance is just plain cheap as are my tags. I only get 20mpg in town but 30+ on the road. SO, I can buy a boat load of gas for the cost of interest on a loan (or opportunity cost) for a new EV (even a used one - if I knew where to find one.) By the way, I think I could fit my son's Mod. 3 in my Buick's trunk!

My point is that the EV decision has to be made on several levels - not just whether EVs are now mainstream (they are) or whether EVs have some advantages over ICE (they absolutely do.)

Heh, heh, it's complicated though YMMV.

 

[NW-Bound]

No fear of the same drama with horse manure happening again in NYC. They have a subway system, and most residents there don't drive or can afford a car anyway. Subway trains run on electricity, and taxi cabs can be EV. They will not miss ICE cars.

Now, let's make sure that New Yorkers get uninterrupted electric juice. That's more important to them than the ICE vs. EV debate.

 

[Koolau]

Does this apply to all EVs?

Are all ICE cars worth their price?

I am asking as an ICE car owner.

Interesting angle. I see $30K to $50K prices on ICE cars and wonder "Who pays that kind of money for ANY car?)

As far as ALL EVs, I think it's a matter of matching the car to the needs of the driver. My son LOVES his Tesla after several years and 70+K miles. Ex DIL HATES here Kia. One meets the owner's needs and the other does not. I'm sure that's true of ICE cars as well. So YMMV.

 

[Ronstar]

IMO, comparing the costs of ownership between ICE and Ev's is moot. A Tesla costs more than a Toyota Camry. A Mercedes S class costs more than a Tesla. Some people have the means to buy a Tesla and could care less that a Camry would cost them less money. Same with a Mercedes owner - they don't care that the Camry or Tesla would cost them less.

It's all about what people want. They buy the cars that they want and that are affordable to them. They don't buy the cheapest car or everyone would be driving entry level Kias.

So it makes no sense to say that my car is cheaper than yours. Do you think that Tesla or other EV owners care if they could have purchased a cheaper car. No. They buy EV's because that is what they want.

 

[Samsung4321]

They don't buy the cheapest car or everyone would be driving entry level Kias.

So it makes no sense to say that my car is cheaper than yours.

You mentioned affordability - else they'd buy RollsRoyce - or any random offering.

 

[TriumphTR3fan]

This is one of the reasons I bought a Tesla. These cars are tough. Two small children were in car seats. All the other talk is secondary to safety.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/03/us/tesla-crash-cliff-california-cec/index.html

 

[Car-Guy]

Interesting angle. I see $30K to $50K prices on ICE cars and wonder "Who pays that kind of money for ANY car?)

 

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by Chuckanut View Post
+1

Think about our modern cell phones. Nobody forced us to buy cell phones by making it illegal to sell the then current POTS phones that had a line into our homes. We bought cell phones, then smart cell phones, then pocket computers that also handled phone calls, and then found we didn't need our old land line POTS phone.

We can do the same with green energy, EVs, etc.

Your old land line phone didn't emit cancer causing fumes.

That's why this situation is different, and being resolved in a different manner.

But your EV does. The extra electricity has to be generated, and since we rarely ever have a true 'excess' of RE, your EV is running on Fossil Fuel. Plus the mining of the components for the battery.

It doesn't resolve anything.

-ERD50

 

[Texas Proud]

Some people in this forum like to make the decision to purchase an EV as a financial decision only. I don't drive much or take many long trips (if at all) yet I still purchased a Chevy Bolt EUV. Why? Because I got tired of having to go to a gas station to fill up (rather than just plug in at home). I got tired of having to get oil changes and other maintenance issues taken care of that only gas powered cars have (EV's have much less maintenance).

Was purchasing an EV the best for me from strictly a financial point of view? Of course, not. But I wanted an affordable easy to use, easy to drive vehicle. Everyone has their own reasons for purchasing various vehicles. I'm guessing that some of the people that are knocking EV's for not being a good financial decision would purchase a $40K+ gas powered car where a $25K gas powered car would be perfectly fine alternative and in the long run would save them money.

As far as driving in cold weather and not having my EV start. I've had that happen to me with a gas powered car back when I lived in MN 30+ years ago. That is not just an EV problem. Fortunately I live in TX now and that isn't a worry for me and my EV.

Tesla will continue to lose market share once other car makers start selling more EV's and especially more EV's in the "under $40k" pricing. The "non Tesla" EV car market is basically just taking off now. https://electrek.co/2022/11/29/tesla-owns-us-ev-market-but-losing-market-shares-data/

Do not know how many miles you drive but I might get a fill up once a month... sometimes longer...


Bought the car from my sister 16 months ago and will be going in for my first oil change soon...


These are not very time consuming for me to do... say 3 to 5 hours a year...

 

[Texas Proud]

That is the whole answer. Freedom is eroding, politicians want to force an agenda and rules on others. If you choose to live in dense urban city center and ride the bus or subway, have at it. If you choose to live in the country and require a vehicle to get places, have at it. Just allow people to be able to make their own choice, not one forced by politicians. This trickles down to EVs, renewable energy, and more. If an EV is a good choice for your needs, then go get one and drive wherever makes you happy. If it does not meet your needs, then stick with conventional or hybrid. I just do not want govt forcing anyone by eliminating choices for their personal transportation.

And most of the people who have a choice even with sky high gas costs still choose a pickup truck or SUV...

 

[Texas Proud]

Or neither.

My nephew who is a pharmacist working in Manhattan and having his home in Queens does not have a car. No place to park it.

LOL, there ARE place to park but they cost $750 or more a month to get the spot...


I was there for a few years and did not need a car... heck, I knew people who owned a car and parked them somewhere in Jersey...

 

[NW-Bound]

LOL, there ARE place to park but they cost $750 or more a month to get the spot...

I was there for a few years and did not need a car... heck, I knew people who owned a car and parked them somewhere in Jersey...

My nephew also kept his car, an Audi S4, and parked it far away...

at his parent's home in AZ.

 

[Koolau]

So sorry if I sounded judgmental. Maybe I'm still living in the 70s when I bought a new Vette for less than 5K.

 

[Fermion]

Your old land line phone didn't emit cancer causing fumes.

That's why this situation is different, and being resolved in a different manner.

What about the mountains of unrecycled EV batteries that are starting to form? Can't be great for the environment.

 

[Koolau]

It resolved plenty. The electricity is generated somewhere I'm not. I didn't breathe those fumes as I went for my morning run. I didn't breathe them when I walked down the street in the evening.

Cars that emit cancerous fumes affect the air I breathe when I walk about. So good riddance to them.

Some people are unhappy about this. You'll have to cope somehow.

Interesting take.

Back in the day, I had to occasionally drive to one of Megacorp's many plant sites about 100 miles from home. On a clear, nearly windless morning, sometimes I would see a reddish brown streak across the sky that alerted me to the fact I was 20 or more miles downwind of a coal fired electric plant. I always wondered who had to breathe THOSE fumes (particulates,fly ash and SO2 primarily - not to mention mercury and much more alpha/beta and gamma emitters than any properly functioning nuclear plant.)

Then that plant nearly killed me. One trip, I was passing the electric generation plant when a large coal truck bounced a huge chunk of coal off its bed. The chunk appeared to be the size of a basket ball as it hit in front of my car and bounced over it - just missing me - except for the shards of coal that chipped the paint on the lip of my hood. Since I had a big presentation to make in an hour, I was so glad I didn't brown out in my shorts.

 

[ken830]

Interesting angle. I see $30K to $50K prices on ICE cars and wonder "Who pays that kind of money for ANY car?)

Before Tesla, I never spent more than $30k (much less:$12k-$20k)... After Tesla, I never spent less than $50k (much more: $70k-$130k). Even I could never imagine spending so much. Problem is, after owning Teslas, my wife and I can't imagine owning any other brand.... so the price is the price.

 

[ken830]

What about the mountains of unrecycled EV batteries that are starting to form? Can't be great for the environment.

Emphasis mine.

No offense, but do you have a source? Sounds like some made-up thing you read from some hater's angry tweet.

My Model S lasted 10 years and 165,000 miles and still had ~89% of its original capacity when I sold it to my friend who is now doing tons of road trips with it (he now inherited my free Supercharging) and hopefully will serve him well for another decade. I don't see it contributing to any mountains so far.

The raw materials in a battery are all still there and is still valuable. Degradation is a change in the structure at a molecular level, so recycling is definitely still there and there will be a need for it soon enough to create a mostly-closed loop supply chain. We're not quite there yet as the oldest large-battery EVs are just hitting the 1 decade mark and there aren't very many of them yet. After vehicle usage, stationary storage could be a possibility where energy density isn't nearly as important. After re-use, then recycling will be required. In 10 years time, we will start to see them in significant quantities.

 

[audreyh1]

Yeah, they aren’t hitting the landfills yet.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...ic-vehicle-batteries-will-go-when-they-retire

 

[DayDreaming]

What about the mountains of unrecycled EV batteries that are starting to form? Can't be great for the environment.

Tesla claims that most of their battery cell material can be recycled. But they're not recycling very many yet because the batteries last so long:
https://electrek.co/2022/05/09/tesla-increase-battery-recycling-capacity-battery-packs/

Tesla batteries, including the battery packs in our vehicles and our energy storage products, are made to last many years, and therefore, we have received a limited number of them back from the field. Most batteries that Tesla recycles today are pre-consumer, coming to us through R&D and quality control. None of our scrapped lithium-ion batteries go to landfills and 100% are recycled. Furthermore, Tesla has an established internal ecosystem to re-manufacture batteries coming from the field to our Service Centers. We actively implement circular economy principles and consider all other options before opting for battery recycling.

 

[ncbill]

Some people in this forum like to make the decision to purchase an EV as a financial decision only. I don't drive much or take many long trips (if at all) yet I still purchased a Chevy Bolt EUV. Why? Because I got tired of having to go to a gas station to fill up (rather than just plug in at home). I got tired of having to get oil changes and other maintenance issues taken care of that only gas powered cars have (EV's have much less maintenance).

Was purchasing an EV the best for me from strictly a financial point of view? Of course, not. But I wanted an affordable easy to use, easy to drive vehicle. Everyone has their own reasons for purchasing various vehicles. I'm guessing that some of the people that are knocking EV's for not being a good financial decision would purchase a $40K+ gas powered car where a $25K gas powered car would be perfectly fine alternative and in the long run would save them money.

As far as driving in cold weather and not having my EV start. I've had that happen to me with a gas powered car back when I lived in MN 30+ years ago. That is not just an EV problem. Fortunately I live in TX now and that isn't a worry for me and my EV.

Tesla will continue to lose market share once other car makers start selling more EV's and especially more EV's in the "under $40k" pricing. The "non Tesla" EV car market is basically just taking off now. https://electrek.co/2022/11/29/tesla-owns-us-ev-market-but-losing-market-shares-data/

Like I said before, that $25k will also get me a used Bolt in the not-too-distant future...I don't know why everyone focuses on Tesla EVs.

I'll add a 240VAC outlet on the front of my place (using the electric dryer circuit) to charge it at my (24/7, all-in) cost of only $0.10/kWh.

Doing that & avoiding ($$$) Level 3 chargers will mean a per-mile fuel cost of ~1/3 that of gasoline.

As for outages, I've lived in the same place for almost 30 years & hurricanes damaging refineries in the Gulf of Mexico have resulted in more gasoline shortages here versus the few noticeable electric outages (longest less than a day) that have occurred in all that time.

 

[REWahoo]

Like I said before, that $25k will also get me a used Bolt in the not-too-distant future...I don't know why everyone focuses on Tesla EVs.

With the new IRA tax credits you can buy a new Bolt right now for less than $25k - providing you can find one.

 

[Ronstar]

This is one of the reasons I bought a Tesla. These cars are tough. Two small children were in car seats. All the other talk is secondary to safety.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/03/us/tesla-crash-cliff-california-cec/index.html

Apparently the cause of the crash is now known - Driver was arrested for attempted murder for allegedly intentionally driving off the cliff.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/04/us/tesla-crash-cliff-california-driver-arrested/index.html

 

[Alan]

After discussion we have decided to temporarily close this thread to let folks cool off for a while.

 

[Alan]

Earlier this month, the moderator team agreed to temporarily close this thread because of these consistent unpleasant arguments. The zealotry and passion of some of the EV community vs. the same in some of the ICE community. The same arguments, around and around, nastier and nastier.

The arguments spill over into other forum interactions, and leave those in the middle unable to participate, and leaving the discussion.

This thread has now been reopened and a number of posts have been deleted.

We ask that the discussion be restricted to those who own EVs or are interested in EV ownership. Let's avoid the endless discussion of whether EVs are better than ICE or the affects that either type of vehicle have on the planet.

If posts go off topic they will be deleted without discussion.
__________________

 

[misanman]

Recent charger installation

DS has "jumped the line" and his new F150 Lightening has been built but not delivered. As his DW has a Mach E on order as well, they installed a charger in their garage a couple of weeks ago. DDIL's father is a retired electrician so he was responsible for the technical details. I was there to help as I could and as a "go fer".

Apparently, the Lightening is capable of charging at 80 amps, so they wanted a charger that was capable of that. So, the "electrician" installed an expansion breaker box, relocated a couple of circuits and installed some 100A breakers for the charger.

Unfortunately, the breaker box is located at the opposite end of the house so they needed 65 feet of cable. The charger specified guage 3 wire, 2 plus ground. DDIL's father tried all the contacts he had with distributors and could not find the cable anywhere. He did find guage 2, 3 plus ground. Since that was obviously more than adequate he ordered some. Maybe it's been a while since he ordered cable, but he neglected to ask about the price. After all, how expensive can electrical cable be? Turned out that it was $14 per foot, so that totaled to over $900. If I decide to go ahead with my Lightening order, I'll try not to overspec the cable.

As a "helper", I quickly discovered that the cable they used was stiff and heavy. But we got it done and hooked up the charger. We provisioned an extra loop of cable at the end so that they could connect to a dedicated EV meter from the power company some time in the future. DS looked at the rates and decided that a separate meter wasn't worth it at this point. This might change in the future.

DS and DDIL are "bantering" about how they're going to share the single charger. I think they should be able to work something out. Their kids have ICE vehicles so there should be backup if they need it.

DS is planning to use the Lightening battery as an emergency power source for their home in case of a power outage. He figures it could last three days but I guess we'll see how that works.

Total cost of the charger and materials was about $2,300. Labor was free.