Should I Stop A Pro Electrician From Working On My Panel HOT?

[JoeWras]

I have only pulled wire in a house I was building, replaced outlets, installed fans etc. Not being a pro and having limited knowledge of electricity I would not try to give advice. I like the safety of turning off the main. However, it would seem to me that if you were concerned about a surge when throwing the main back on I would first turn all the breakers off before the main is turned on and then turn the breakers back on one at a time.

Cheers!

Midpack is past his issue, so I guess we can have fun with general discussion.

To me, who cares about throwing main? Heck, we have power failures every now and then, sometimes for just a second. So you wanna talk surges? I'll show you a surge!

I still like to flip off the AC and Fridge, both inductive loads, before re-energizing main, or after a long power outage. The rest of the loads, even coming on all at once, are not too bad.

In any case, I'm out of the main panel game. I used to mess in there, but not anymore. Too much danger, too much chance to do something stupid.

My feeling about the original electrician (and many I've encountered) about working the panel hot is they do it for convenience no matter what the client or OSHA says. Clients can be crazy. "Sure, Mr. Sparky, go ahead and turn off the house for your work. I'll be OK." So the electrician has the whole house off for 20 minutes. As he is trying to collect his check, the client melts down because they didn't know the lizard heater would be turned off! Poor baby lizard is comatose now.

People are weird. I like to read both the r/electricians and r/askelectricians subreddits. The pros have a lot of stories.

 

[old medic]

The fact Hes been doing this professionally for 35 years and still alive tells me he will be just fine. I have a bit of experience doing the same and have no issue working on a live panel.

 

[Amethyst]

You might be less likely to "insult" him (he's a pro, not a diva, correct?) if you blame it on yourself: "I'm just nervous...I'd feel better if you threw the main switch, as long as you can get everything done cold."

Anyway, that's how I handle such things. Let'em look pityingly at the silly old lady, who cares, as long as they do what I want.

It is 5 seconds, I am not sure why some electricians are willing to work hot...but I don't want to insult a pro. I assume maybe it's not wise to energize everything all at once when it comes time to re-energize? But we could throw all the breakers, and bring them back one at a time, wouldn't add much time [this is my untrained guess].

Shouldn't matter, but the main switch is just outside with a zip tie on it, presumably put there by the builder or utility. But it's a garden variety white zip tie, so I could replace it no problem.

 

[Amethyst]

My father did high-voltage electrical construction, mainly substations. He was rigid about safety, and had stories about the dead and injured guys who weren't so careful.

That guy broke every safety rule in any companies protocol policy book and OSHAs too.

For one thing you never cut open a hot and load carrying conductor. No rubber gloves no rubber sleeves. He did have a hot cutter that was insulated for that voltage but that procedure he did should never been done. Ever!!! Someone did something wrong and they thought it was a deadline and it was hot.

 

[TheWizard]

I'm an engineer, not an electrician.
But I've added many new circuits for two different house expansions.

When the time comes to connect the new circuit into the 200 amp panel, I first connect the ground and neutral wires to the ground bar in the panel.
Then I connect the black "hot" wire to the new circuit breaker and carefully rotate that into place in the selected vacant panel slot.

None of this involves turning off the main breaker.

If you don't understand why turning off the main breaker is unnecessary in this case, then you shouldn't be doing your own wiring, simple...

 

[427Vette]

Electricians work on live circuits all the time. They know the precautions and techniques to not get shocked. I have worked on live circuits also and haven't been shocked. You just have to be aware of it and proceed accordingly.

This pretty much sums it up. Thinking back on the 30+ years that I did electrical work I don’t remember ever shorting anything out or getting a shock inside an electric panel. Very rarely would I turn the power off. The most dangerous stuff was the wiring the homeowner who thought he knew something about wiring had done. I would say in the future just let the guy do his job.

 

[old medic]

Reminds me of a sign I saw at an auto shop.
Oil Change $20
Oil Change and You Want to Watch $30
Oil Change and You Want to Help $40
Oil Change and You Want to Tell Me How to Do It $100

Had a similar one at my shop.

Shop Charges $25/Hr
If you watch $50/Hr
If you help $75/Hr
If you tried to fix it 1st $150/Hr

 

[Winemaker]

I'm an engineer, not an electrician.
But I've added many new circuits for two different house expansions.

When the time comes to connect the new circuit into the 200 amp panel, I first connect the ground and neutral wires to the ground bar in the panel.
Then I connect the black "hot" wire to the new circuit breaker and carefully rotate that into place in the selected vacant panel slot.

None of this involves turning off the main breaker.

If you don't understand why turning off the main breaker is unnecessary in this case, then you shouldn't be doing your own wiring, simple...

+1 I was a certied mine electrician.

 

[folivier]

I'm not an electrician but had one help me frequently on 120VAC+ stuff. Most of my work was on low voltage DC. I've done many projects that involved wiring in new breakers. If you're careful, not sweating, and wire the ground then the neutral then the hot wire to the breaker then install the breaker there is nothing in 120 or 220VAC that can hurt you. If you're comfortable working on 'lectricity.
One's hot, one's not.

 

[TheWizard]

+1 I was a certified mine electrician.

Some mines have wet zones.
I'd be really nervous about working on an electrical issue while standing in a puddle in a mine.
So it was good that you were certified...

 

[Fermion]

The reason why he should have turned off the main is liability for the homeowner. Who knows what some previous person has (mis) wired in the house. I am guessing the electrician is bonded but anyone can be sued these days without a lot of logic behind the lawsuit. For instance, did you know you can sue a drug developer who didn't even make, sell or get compensation for a generic drug you purchased? It doesn't have to make sense for you to get sued, so I would have demanded he shut the main off.

 

[joesxm3]

I have a few questions. I am just learning so I hope they are not too irritating.

Is the amount of AMPs going through a circuit controlled by the device connected to the circuit that is sucking electricity?

When installing a breaker and accidentally making a circuit involving yourself the size of the breaker or the circuit should not matter, since there is no device drawing on the circuit? Would your circuit just be open and draw a lot of amps, through you to the ground?

How is a bolt on breaker different from a clip on breaker. I assume it must somehow bolt to the bus? The video on EV chargers burning said to use a bolt on breaker.

Would one need to de-energize the bus when installing a bolt on breaker?

Is a 60 amp breaker more rugged than a 30 amp breaker? Is it designed to handle twice the stress of the 30 amp breaker?

If you are limiting the AMPs, say with a Tesla Wall Connector to 32 AMPs, would a 60 amp breaker be less likely to heat up under continuous load than a 40 amp breaker?

Thanks.

 

[TheWizard]

I'm not familiar with residential bolt-on breakers.
The purpose of an XX-amp breaker is to keep the wiring on that branch ckt from overheating in case of a short or other excessive current draw.
Whether the breaker itself heats up a bit under full load is of no immediate concern...

 

[Al in Ohio]

That is very common for a professional electrician to do. I’m not a pro and my Dad showed me how to do it. In some situations it’s done when a new breaker is added.

 

[Fermion]

There are a lot of gotcha things in electrical work that the average homeowner might get trapped.

For example, did you know about the little tabs between the upper and lower plug on your electrical outlet socket? If the house system is wired as some are such that different phases go to the upper and lower, you must break that tab else when you replace this socket it will short the two phases together. I bet that gets quite a few people who think this is just a easy replacement job of a $0.59 outlet.

(The reason for wiring like this, sometimes in a kitchen, is that people will plug two high current draw devices into one outlet...microwave and coffee maker for example.) We have done this in the house wiring of our new home build.

 

[Al in Ohio]

Why not just throw the main yourself when he starts working? That's what I would do if I was concerned.

That is a terrible idea.

 

[Car-Guy]

Look at it this way, if he didn't know what he was doing, he would probably be dead and buried by now. Only takes once, usually!


As I mention earlier, I'm a belt and suspenders kind of guy when it comes to safety especially when working around electricity, cars/equipment and climbing ladders. On this topic, I do all my own electrical work "but" first I check the wiring I'm working on with a known working VOM and then throw the breaker and check it again to be sure it's off. Then I'll short each wire to ground, just to be sure. Then I'll proceed using insulated tools. So far, I'm still here.

 

[joesxm3]

I'm not familiar with residential bolt-on breakers.
The purpose of an XX-amp breaker is to keep the wiring on that branch ckt from overheating in case of a short or other excessive current draw.
Whether the breaker itself heats up a bit under full load is of no immediate concern...

The video, discussed in one of the EV threads here, showed a 50 amp breaker (Home Depot quality) that melted while charging an EV. The melted plastic basically welded the piece of metal the moves to trip the breaker so it would not trip.

They also showed a NEMA 14-50 outlet that almost caught fire. They said that you should either buy a device like the Tesla Wall Connector that is intended for EV charging or at least buy a heavy-duty outlet like the bakalite one made by Hubble.

They also said that they would use bolt on breaker and make sure that all connections were torque verified per the manufacturer instructions to avoid heating caused by too loose or too tight connections.

I will be having my local electrician come to wire my Tesla Wall Connector, so I have worries similar to MidPack. I don't want to upset the electrician, but the video was done by Sandy Munro, who is famous for disassembling cars and consulting to the car manufacturers along with a master electrician who specializes in EV charger installations.

 

[Bruno]

When they work on the high line poles most of that work is done HOT. I would not see any problem installing a breaker HOT.

 

[Midpack]

^^ I assume you have the Wall Connector instructions**, but all the electrician needs is on page 6. Sounds like you're going with a hard wired charging solution.

I went the mobile connector route instead of a Wall Connector. My install was a 50A breaker *, #6 AWG copper wire, and a commercial grade NEMA 14-50 outlet (ended up with an Eaton/Arrow Hart 5754N, same as Cooper) but a Bryant 9450fr would have been my first choice. I will only charge at 32A, more than fast enough, don't need 40A or 48A.

I assume your electrical panel has load and physical space for this. I have a 200A panel with open slots, so it was an easy install.

* Evidently GFCI breakers are required in some areas/installations, that breaker is way more expensive, not required where I am.

** https://www.tesla.com/sites/default...ng/Gen3_WallConnector_Installation_Manual.pdf

 

[Qs Laptop]

Look at it this way, if he didn't know what he was doing, he would probably be dead and buried by now. Only takes once, usually!


As I mention earlier, I'm a belt and suspenders kind of guy when it comes to safety especially when working around electricity, cars/equipment and climbing ladders. On this topic, I do all my own electrical work "but" first I check the wiring I'm working on with a known working VOM and then throw the breaker and check it again to be sure it's off. Then I'll short each wire to ground, just to be sure. Then I'll proceed using insulated tools. So far, I'm still here.

And I thought I was the only one that did this.

 

[joesxm3]

^^ I assume you have the Wall Connector instructions**, but all the electrician needs is on page 6. Sounds like you're going with a hard wired charging solution.

I went the mobile connector route instead of a Wall Connector. My install was a 50A breaker *, #6 AWG copper wire, and a commercial grade NEMA 14-50 outlet (ended up with an Eaton/Arrow Hart 5754N, same as Cooper) but a Bryant 9450fr would have been my first choice. I will only charge at 32A, more than fast enough, don't need 40A or 48A.

I assume your electrical panel has load and physical space for this. I have a 200A panel with open slots, so it was an easy install.

* Evidently GFCI breakers are required in some areas/installations, that breaker is way more expensive, not required where I am.

** https://www.tesla.com/sites/default...ng/Gen3_WallConnector_Installation_Manual.pdf

I also plan to charge at a low rate even though the wall connector can charge up to 48 amps.

My issue is that the panel is on one end of the basement and the garage door on the other end. If I run all the way to the garage door it will be more than 50 feet and less than 100 feet.

Your install with a 50 amp breaker but charging at only 32 amps seems like a prudent over build. That was what was driving my questions about whether a larger amp breaker would be more rugged in an under utilization scenario. For 32 amps it would seem to require a 40 amp breaker, but 50 amp is good due to continuous load issues.

I read some posts on electrician forums that the building inspector dinged them for not using a 60 amp breaker for the wall connector because the home owner could change the charge limit with wifi.

I plan to ask for 4 AWG THHN wire in a metal conduit. If I go all the way to the garage door, which would be nicest for plugging in, I think it will be slightly under spec for 48 amp continuous draw due to the run length.

If I am willing to live with a less than optimal plug scenario where I have to back the car in and then run the 24 foot charge cable across a basement room and through the sheet rock wall, I can have a less than 50 foot run and be fully up to spec.

As I have been learning about this stuff, I am coming to realize that I probably have a lot of the circuits in my house overloaded. For example, refrigerator and microwave on same 15 amp circuit. I have not measured the refrigerator but the microwave by itself draws 9 amps. My toaster oven, hopefully on a separate circuit, draws 11.87 amps.

I plan to map the circuits. The toaster outlet has what looks to be a 20 amp outlet while the microwave looks to be an original 15 amp outlet. I hope they used the correct wire for each. I also have a lot of window air conditioners and dehumidifiers, arghh.

BTW - the wall connecter has built in GFCI. The manual does say torque to 50 inch pounds when connecting the wire. I hope the electrician does not get bent out of shape if I suggest that he use a torque driver.

Ironic that you have yours hooked up and are weeks from your car and I have my car coming next week and have not been able to get the electrician to fit me into his schedule yet. I did buy both the mobile and wall connectors, so I guess I will be charging on the 15 or 20 amp circuits for a while.

 

[Texas Proud]

Just as an FYI, I did have a whole house generator installed and to hook it up with the transfer switch they did remove the meter for a few hours...


There was a lot of work getting the new wires installed a routed...


The benefit of this is I can trip the transfer switch and there is nothing going to the box...

 

[joesxm3]

Does pulling the meter out of the socket disconnect the house from the street without unhooking the big wires?

A few months ago I discussed upgrading my dads 100 amp to 200 amp and the electrician said he could not get meter sockets due to supply problems.

 

[OldShooter]

@joexsm3, WADR I suggest that you find a new hobby. Your post is too complicated to deal with (for MSEE me anyway) and IMO a smart electrician will probably refuse the job if you insist on "helping" in the way you plan.