Paranormal stories

[cyber888]

You want proof of Levitation. Ok wiseguy here it is on video. Believe me now, or you will just say it's a camera trick ? I have a couple of these videos. Anyone can dismiss anything or believe anything. I've seen fake and seen real.

Your control environment is Fake, because anyone can claim a controlled environment I'm a scientists with 40 peer-reviewed journals published in scientific journals. Many are just biased.

Everyone in the Parapsychology and Paranormal knows that 'controlled environment' only works material sciences, but not in social sciences and paranormal sciences. So, you already boxed yourself there as 'close minded'. Scientists cannot even have controlled environments in Quantum Mechanics or Sub-particle Physics.

Your controlled environment is laughable, because there are different research methods. And there are many fake controlled environments, which is your bible. Many paranormal experience do not fit this environment, so that means you are already close minded. Many paranormal experience cannot be replicated, and that's the theory of controlled environments - that is is replicable. Not all experience can be replicated in controlled environment. So, everything you believe about the paranormal is already clearly wrong and very very close minded. End of story.

The burden of proof that these videos are fake is now on you - how are they fake or how did they fake it ?

In conclusion, your assumptions about the infallible 'controlled environment' is already putting a limitation in your mind. That's the end of it. No mystic with this power will subject himself to 1000 hours of controls to prove these feats. Maybe you can ask Jesus Christ to do it for you - walk on water in a controlled environment. haha. Go figure.

Lastly, I shared my experience here and not to prove anything, especially to any skeptic or non-believers who believe only in the infallible controlled environment. I already know it, and I don't care what you believe in.

Tibetans also have used Acoustic Levitation for centuries, and that's already been proven by science. Occam's Razor is just an insult to those who have done years of research into this.

Hmm, if Western science is all wrong, how is it we are communicating now with these electronic devices over the internet? Why do we fly in airplanes, drive cars, cook food in a microwave oven? All that came from Western scientific understanding and application.



Where have I been judgemental? I simply said these things being claimed should stand up to scrutiny, the same standard I apply to Western technology.

I don't believe I ever said they were "wrong" to believe these things, but if they want me to believe them, they will have to demonstrate them to me. And if they don't care if I care, that's fine. But then why insist I am wrong?




I'm not limiting my view. I haven't said these things don't exist, I'm only asking for proof, if you want me to believe. Where's the limitation in that? It seems you are the one that is setting limits, one must only look at this through the mystic's senses, we can't apply science?

Clearly, videos are easily faked (and we've all seen plenty of them) - that is not the controlled conditions I spoke of.

I think it would be more than fascinating, more than exciting for a Tibetan to walk into a room of scientists under controlled conditions, and levitate in front of them under these conditions. That would be awesome! I welcome it, how exciting!

Bring it On! I want to see their minds being blown. It should open up all sorts of interesting possibilities. That would be such amazing news, I can only wonder why it hasn't happened yet?

-ERD50

 

[easysurfer]

I'm not seeing that stuff being discussed. What are you referring to?

ERD50 brought up the topic of mystical powers and you quoted him saying that's an interesting take. I'd think witchcraft and such would fall under that category.

I'm afraid I may not have much more to add as mentioned if adopting the view that death may be an illusion then all bets are off. If that's the case, than anything is possible.

 

[easysurfer]

Check this out. Acoustic levitation uses:

https://youtu.be/5E-Mj9DUrRI

Thank you Cyber888. Very eye opening. Especially the first video's explanation about how the levitation is done by tapping into earth's own energy.

I remember back when things like acupuncture, biofeedback were regarded as quackery. But not anymore.

 

[ERD50]

.... So, everything you believe about the paranormal is already clearly wrong and very very close minded. End of story. ...

The last thing I would expect to hear from a truly open minded person is, (paraphrasing) - 'you are wrong. End of story'.

An open minded person listens to thoughtful explanations, and engages in thoughtful exchanges. Some/most would see "End of story" as defeat.

You want proof of Levitation. Ok wiseguy here it is on video. ... The burden of proof that these videos are fake is now on you - how are they fake or how did they fake it ? ...

I sincerely hope you are not serious. First, that's not how it works - you are making the claim, the burden of proof is on you. I could say "I predicted yesterday's lottery numbers, prove that I didn't". It just doesn't work that way.

Second, that video doesn't provide even the slightest feeling of *not* being faked (which - keeping an open mind, doesn't mean it's not fake). But it could hardly be a poorer example of 'proof'. Be serious, one camera angle, a guy on a carpet with a couch behind him, and there wasn't even an attempt at showing no connection behind him and some mechanism on the couch? It *could* have been easily faked, so that is no sort of proof at all. Let him do it in a room full of professionals who can inspect everything in the room, and let them publish the video. Why don't we see videos like that? Occam knows why.

... Your controlled environment is laughable, because there are different research methods. And there are many fake controlled environments, ...

And that's where peer review comes in - you claim to be familiar with peer review, so you should know this. A famous example is Fleischmann and Pons claiming they produced cold fusion with a net energy gain. They were wrong, but peer review made this clear. Anyone can claim anything, but not every claim stands up to scrutiny.

... Everyone in the Parapsychology and Paranormal knows that 'controlled environment' only works material sciences, but not in social sciences and paranormal sciences. So, you already boxed yourself there as 'close minded'. ... Many paranormal experience do not fit this environment, so that means you are already close minded. Many paranormal experience cannot be replicated, and that's the theory of controlled environments - that is is replicable. Not all experience can be replicated in controlled environment.

If you have read my posts carefully, you will see I've stayed away from the areas that are not tied to physical, repeatable and testable claims. If it's not testable, there's nothing to talk about in terms of fake or not. I'm trying to stick to things like levitation claims, as these fit the above. If the 'easy' stuff can't pass scrutiny, why go further?

It's simple - show me a report from a reputable group of scientists that have observed a human levitating under controlled conditions (that's not a dirty word!) w/o any known easily explained assistance.

Y ... Tibetans also have used Acoustic Levitation for centuries, and that's already been proven by science. ...

? Acoustic levitation is a known and understood physical event, and I had some awareness of it from years ago. I'd need to brush up, but it involved (I think) focusing the peaks and troughs of the wavelengths of sound waves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_levitation

So if monks are using this technology to levitate a human body, I'm sure western scientists would be very interested. From the little I've caught up on, they've lifted weights of a few milligrams, not many kilograms. And you'd need acoustic transducers and a power source for all this - are the monks using all that?

And if the monks have another way, great - let them demonstrate it, so we can all see it.

Y ... Occam's Razor is just an insult to those who have done years of research into this. ...

I've never heard anyone describe Occam's Razor as an insult. Strange words to use.

-ERD50

 

[cyber888]

Why would I listen to a Fake Argument from someone who clearly has no idea that 'controlled environments' do not work in Paranormal research?

Don't turn the tables. You already limited the research to one methodology of using only controlled environments, so that clearly wrong in so many ways.

You clearly did not comprehend what I said about Quantum Mechanics, that many areas in that research is not repeatable because the behavior of sub-atomic particles are random in many ways. This clearly proves you wrong again, because that is not repeatable.

I suggest you watch this movie, on how your suggestion of controlled environments are flawed. The movie is about an academic research into the paranormal using a 'controlled environment' and it failed. End of story. Listening to your 1 methodology is useless jiber jabber. It's archaic and close minded.

And again, I'm not here to prove anything to anyone. I shared an experience and you're asking for a controlled environment testing. Do your research then. No one is stopping you.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1748179/?ref_=nm_flmg_t_31_act

The last thing I would expect to hear from a truly open minded person is, (paraphrasing) - 'you are wrong. End of story'.

An open minded person listens to thoughtful explanations, and engages in thoughtful exchanges. Some/most would see "End of story" as defeat.



I sincerely hope you are not serious. First, that's not how it works - you are making the claim, the burden of proof is on you. I could say "I predicted yesterday's lottery numbers, prove that I didn't". It just doesn't work that way.

Second, that video doesn't provide even the slightest feeling of *not* being faked (which - keeping an open mind, doesn't mean it's not fake). But it could hardly be a poorer example of 'proof'. Be serious, one camera angle, a guy on a carpet with a couch behind him, and there wasn't even an attempt at showing no connection behind him and some mechanism on the couch? It *could* have been easily faked, so that is no sort of proof at all. Let him do it in a room full of professionals who can inspect everything in the room, and let them publish the video. Why don't we see videos like that? Occam knows why.




And that's where peer review comes in - you claim to be familiar with peer review, so you should know this. A famous example is Fleischmann and Pons claiming they produced cold fusion with a net energy gain. They were wrong, but peer review made this clear. Anyone can claim anything, but not every claim stands up to scrutiny.




If you have read my posts carefully, you will see I've stayed away from the areas that are not tied to physical, repeatable and testable claims. If it's not testable, there's nothing to talk about in terms of fake or not. I'm trying to stick to things like levitation claims, as these fit the above. If the 'easy' stuff can't pass scrutiny, why go further?

It's simple - show me a report from a reputable group of scientists that have observed a human levitating under controlled conditions (that's not a dirty word!) w/o any known easily explained assistance.




? Acoustic levitation is a known and understood physical event, and I had some awareness of it from years ago. I'd need to brush up, but it involved (I think) focusing the peaks and troughs of the wavelengths of sound waves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_levitation

So if monks are using this technology to levitate a human body, I'm sure western scientists would be very interested. From the little I've caught up on, they've lifted weights of a few milligrams, not many kilograms. And you'd need acoustic transducers and a power source for all this - are the monks using all that?

And if the monks have another way, great - let them demonstrate it, so we can all see it.




I've never heard anyone describe Occam's Razor as an insult. Strange words to use.

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

Why would I listen to a Fake Argument from someone who clearly has no idea that 'controlled environments' do not work in Paranormal research? ...

Because I've been straight with you. And I don't dismiss/pre-judge your statements as “Fake”, I said that levitating video *could* be real, but the way it is presented doesn't give me any reason to believe it was real, and I think that's fair. I acknowledged that some paranormal claims are not going to be testable, and I've told you, I've avoided those here, because there is nothing for me to add.

If someone says their deceased Grandma appeared to them one night, alone, and spoke to them - there is nothing I can test. PLEASE LISTEN THIS TIME: I'm not saying that did not happen, I have no way to prove/disprove that, so there's really nothing for me to add to the discussion. Perhaps there *is* a way for the dead to communicate, I don't know. I'm skeptical, but I can't rule it out, so I don't. Isn't that being open minded, allowing for the possibility?

... Don't turn the tables. You already limited the research to one methodology of using only controlled environments, so that clearly wrong in so many ways. ...

Well, as I said, something with a physical attribute should be able to be tested in a controlled environment. If I assume your levitating guy is serious, then he seems to be interested in proving his capabilities to others. Then do it where knowledgeable people have inspected his room for 'tricks', can view him and record him from all angles. A video of the level you presented is just going to make most people even more skeptical. Again, I'd absolutely love to see that there is some power like this, I'd be fascinated. Please, bring it on!

Speaking of turning tables, are you saying that because some traditional scientific testing has been wrong (scientists are humans too), that no scientific testing can be accepted? In that case, there are many, many videos showing how tricksters fake levitation with a simple platform. So since some levitators (and many other paranormals) are fake, that makes all levitators fake? Of course not, but that's what you seem to be saying about science.

Yes, I am purposely limiting the conversation to testable events. Paranormal is a wide net, why not focus on one aspect, and see how that goes? I'm not asking for proof of everything - that would be too much, so how about just this one thing? Why not stick to that for now?

... I suggest you watch this movie, on how your suggestion of controlled environments are flawed. The movie is about an academic research into the paranormal using a 'controlled environment' and it failed. End of story. Listening to your 1 methodology is useless jiber jabber. It's archaic and close minded.

And again, I'm not here to prove anything to anyone. I shared an experience and you're asking for a controlled environment testing. Do your research then. No one is stopping you.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1748179/?ref_=nm_flmg_t_31_act

A Hollywood movie? Even the director said "He further stated that he does not intend Red Lights to represent his own position on the subject, as it is just an entertainment movie; ...”.

Again, I'm not trying to take on the entire spectrum of anything that is described as 'paranormal', that's too big a tent, and allows you to keep moving the goal posts.

So show me something convincing regarding levitation - please.

And can you provide more info on monks using Acoustic Levitation ( an understood modern scientific principal) “for centuries”? The technology for this was unavailable (to scientists/engineers) until recently, and can only levitate small weights. I'd love to get some detailed info on how monks used this technique w/o modern electrical transducers centuries ago.

-ERD50

 

[donheff]

Well, if one of these guys ever got by James Randi I would have said time to look at the science. But with him in the room all the babble about closed environments went out the window. That’s when supernatural practitioners resort to bad vibes interfering with their access to the force. Another untestable assertion.

The problem with calling us skeptics close minded is that many of us would be ecstatic if we could ever really tap into forces previously unknown to science. Give me a warp drive and I will be in heaven. But believing wacko claims without compelling evidence is simple minded, not open minded.

 

[Koolau]

If that intelligent life visited, and we were still swinging from trees, we wouldn't know about it. And that was a relatively short time ago.

-ERD50

Yeah, just over 65 years for me. I never broke anything (other than a tree limb or two) but youngest daughter broke her arm swinging from a tree. I guess it's just in the genes to swing from trees.

 

[Koolau]

Well, if one of these guys ever got by James Randi I would have said time to look at the science. But with him in the room all the babble about closed environments went out the window. That’s when supernatural practitioners resort to bad vibes interfering with their access to the force. Another untestable assertion.

The problem with calling us skeptics close minded is that many of us would be ecstatic if we could ever really tap into forces previously unknown to science. Give me a warp drive and I will be in heaven. But believing wacko claims without compelling evidence is simple minded, not open minded.

I have one and only one issue with the w*rk that The Amazing Randi did. He evaluated situations that were not spontaneous. Folks made claims they couldn't back up (bending spoons - or whatever.) I would suggest that most "true paranormal" events are spontaneous and not under the control of those affected. With Randi, folks are trying to "prove" they can do something or make something happen. How do you prove/disprove a feeling that the phone is about to ring - and then it rings. If Randi were still here to evaluate me, he'd have to wait a very long time - maybe forever - which has already come to The Amazing Randi.

My "phone" experience was just as if the phone HAD already rung and I knew I needed to answer it because DW was calling me. I have no way to prove that and it's never happened before or since. SO, it's essentially unscientifically provable - by definition. I could never do that "on command." Especially on an episode of The Amazing Randi. It just doesn't happen that way.

People who have experienced such things tend to believe and those who have not tend not to believe. But again, such things can't be proven. It's probably "irrational" to try to explain how such a thing could happen (by coincidence for instance.)

 

[Qs Laptop]

I have one and only one issue with the w*rk that The Amazing Randi did. He evaluated situations that were not spontaneous. Folks made claims they couldn't back up (bending spoons - or whatever.) I would suggest that most "true paranormal" events are spontaneous and not under the control of those affected. With Randi, folks are trying to "prove" they can do something or make something happen. How do you prove/disprove a feeling that the phone is about to ring - and then it rings. If Randi were still here to evaluate me, he'd have to wait a very long time - maybe forever - which has already come to The Amazing Randi.

Actually, the people that the Amazing Randi went after to debunk were people that claimed to be able to perform various paranormal feats on demand. Mediums, healers, psychics, etc. For several years Randi had the $1,000,000 challenge whereby he challenged anyone to perform a paranormal feat and if confirmed he would award them $1M. The money is still unclaimed. I believe a couple of psychics took him up on the offer but then failed to actually get tested.

He's been sued numerous times and has won.

 

[easysurfer]

By definition, paranormal is about the outside of normal. By definition of "has to be controlled environment" is has to be normal.

Kind of like if you try to point out why (according to your argument) God doesn't exist. It's not rational to believe that. The believer can always respond "Well, God works in mysterious ways". How can one disprove that statement?

 

[Qs Laptop]

By definition, paranormal is about the outside of normal. By definition of "has to be controlled environment" is has to be normal.

The point is that there are hundreds (thousands?) of psychics, palm readers, tarot card readers, mediums, people who claim to see/talk to angels and on and on I could go, who do, in fact, set up shop and will take your money and "perform" on demand. Is it too much to ask that they do it in a place other than their usual place of business?

Kind of like if you try to point out why (according to your argument) God doesn't exist. It's not rational to believe that. The believer can always respond "Well, God works in mysterious ways". How can one disprove that statement?

Not sure where you are going with this but I could make a rational argument for the existence of God, in particular the Christian God.

And yes, the response, "God works in mysterious ways" is a cop out. So is the response, "It's a mystery" when someone is asked a question about their theology they cannot answer.

BTW, how does a Tibetan monk levitate? "It's a mystery."
How can a psychic see people's auras? "It's a mystery." "It's a gift."
How is a medium able to contact the dead? "It's a mystery."
etc. etc.

 

[easysurfer]

I was just pointing out the difficulty of trying to prove something vs beliefs.

People can get blinded either way. Believe something no matter what.

There's always a tug of war between facts vs beliefs. Whether it's UFOs, how to handle money, relationships, religion.

 

[ERD50]

I was just pointing out the difficulty of trying to prove something vs beliefs. ....

No, I don't think you are. You are redefining things in such a way as to make them seem impervious to rational thought, but they aren't.

.... People can get blinded either way. Believe something no matter what.

There's always a tug of war between facts vs beliefs. Whether it's UFOs, how to handle money, relationships, religion.

Maybe, but how about levitation? Whether someone rises off the ground, unaided by mechanical/physical means is not a matter of 'belief', it's a matter of - did it happen or not?

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

By definition, paranormal is about the outside of normal. By definition of "has to be controlled environment" is has to be normal. ...

No, that's just circular, pretzel logic - seemingly to avoid a meaningful challenge.

Not when we are talking about things like levitation. That involves a physical, measurable event. So let's measure it. And when we measure things, it must be under controlled conditions.

If the levitation happens w/o any known forces under strict control of professionals - then we can start assigning 'paranormal' tags to it. But not before. Got an example?

-ERD50

 

[youbet]

I don’t believe in god but having some weird paranormal experiences makes me wonder if people that have passed can communicate in some way although my logical mind says we die and that’s it.

John Prine said “when you’re dead, you’re a dead peckerhead.” Sounds spot on as John often was..

 

[Koolau]

Actually, the people that the Amazing Randi went after to debunk were people that claimed to be able to perform various paranormal feats on demand. Mediums, healers, psychics, etc. For several years Randi had the $1,000,000 challenge whereby he challenged anyone to perform a paranormal feat and if confirmed he would award them $1M. The money is still unclaimed. I believe a couple of psychics took him up on the offer but then failed to actually get tested.

He's been sued numerous times and has won.

My point exactly. Randi would not have been able to evaluate my experiences because I can't do them on demand. The folks who submitted to Randi's eagle eye said they could do "something" on demand - so pretty obviously fake. Most paranormal doesn't operate on a schedule (Randi's or anyone else's.)

 

[ERD50]

... The folks who submitted to Randi's eagle eye said they could do "something" on demand - so pretty obviously fake. ...

I don't understand how you can say that anyone claiming to do it on demand is "obviously fake"? I'm trying to keep an open mind, if they say they can do it on demand (or even 'usually', at least to significant probability), then I say let's test them to find out if they are using 'tricks' or not.

But I don't want to pre-judge based on that attribute alone.

My point exactly. Randi would not have been able to evaluate my experiences because I can't do them on demand. ... Most paranormal doesn't operate on a schedule (Randi's or anyone else's.)

As I've said repeatedly, many of the events mentioned would be difficult/impossible to test. With all the unknowns (pretty much by definition!) surrounding 'paranormal', I don't see how you can say anything like 'most' doesn't operate on a schedule. How can we know that?

-ERD50

 

[Car-Guy]

Personally, I don't believe in paranormal stuff for a second. No ghost, voodoo, witchcraft, supernatural, etc, etc. Even if I personally saw someone "levitate something", I'd be looking for a scientific/logical answer to that levitation.

I'm not afraid of the dark but the unknown does give me pause, sometimes.

Are there aliens "out there"? Probably lot's of them. Here? Maybe.

Is there a God or not? God works in mysterious ways! Questions and beliefs are many, answers and facts are few. Anyone here familiar with the Deism philosophy/POV?

 

[easysurfer]

Personally, I don't believe in paranormal stuff for a second. No ghost, voodoo, witchcraft, supernatural, etc, etc. Even if I personally saw someone "levitate something", I'd be looking for a scientific/logical answer to that levitation.

I'm not afraid of the dark but the unknown does give me pause, sometimes.

Are there aliens "out there"? Probably lot's of them. Here? Maybe.

Is there a God or not? God works in mysterious ways! Questions and beliefs are many, answers and facts are few. Anyone here familiar with the Deism philosophy/POV?

This was kind of my point in earlier post (#213). We come in the situation with our own bias. IMO, no matter how objective we try, we are human and have our own preconceptions.

I like listening to the theoretical physicist Michio Kaku (along with other stuff like the program Coast to Coast). Kaku has a funny thing he says about the next time folks who get abducted by aliens, to steal something from their space craft as proof [rather than just eyewitness accounts]. There's no law against stealing from aliens. But I bet if someone did steal something and the material is analyzed "objectively" as out of this world. Those who don't believe in aliens will find a reason not to believe.

Take for example the loch ness monster. Was in the news recently as a big search party again. After all these years, there's still those who believe, those who do not.

I think back about the time when there was the proposal that the world is not flat. Or that earth revolved around the sun instead of the other way around. There was a lot of resistance with folks seeing things only their preconceived ways.

For me, my beliefs changed. If you asked me when I was college if a tree falls in a forest and nobody is there to hear it, does it make a noise? I would have said, of course it does still. Noise is noise. But now I really don't know the answer.

There's more that I don't know than what I do know. Even more mind blowing than if a person can levitate. Like what? ... Multiverses? If I go drive through an intersection and almost get hit by a car. In another universe, I got run over? What? We might be all just living in a simulation? Or what? Look up something on quantum entanglement. You mean at a subatomic level, one thing is related to another thing billions of miles away? These aren't made up theories by me, but by the much smarter folks.

 

[Koolau]

I don't understand how you can say that anyone claiming to do it on demand is "obviously fake"? I'm trying to keep an open mind, if they say they can do it on demand (or even 'usually', at least to significant probability), then I say let's test them to find out if they are using 'tricks' or not.

I don't see how you can say anything like 'most' doesn't operate on a schedule. How can we know that?

-ERD50

Because Randi (and others) have SHOWN that few if any can "do it" on command. From everything I've heard (AND experienced) such things happen spontaneously - not on command. If you know of folks who claim to "do it" on command - and they haven't been debunked, let me know.

One guy from way back - Edgar Cayce apparently could put himself into a trance and give psychic info "on command." I'm guessing there are others as well. BUT of those here in this thread who have responded positively - I've not heard anyone mention that they can "do it" when they want to. For me, the only thing I can connect to any "phenomenon" is being exhausted or just sleepy. I can't control it - nor do I want to. YMMV

Again, any evidence you have would be interesting to hear, suggesting you can turn "it" on or off.

 

[Qs Laptop]

Personally, I don't believe in paranormal stuff for a second. No ghost, voodoo, witchcraft, supernatural, etc, etc.

Same.

Even if I personally saw someone "levitate something", I'd be looking for a scientific/logical answer to that levitation.

Me too, absolutely first thing I would go to.

Are there aliens "out there"? Probably lot's of them. Here? Maybe.

Unlikely there are aliens out there (but not ruling it out.) Aliens here on earth? No.

Is there a God or not?

Yes.

Questions and beliefs are many, answers and facts are few.

Answers and facts are there if you go looking.

Anyone here familiar with the Deism philosophy/POV?

Yes. Most of the founding fathers were Christians; many who weren't were Deists. Simply stated, Deism is the belief that God exists and that God created the earth and universe, set it in motion, and whatever happens after that, happens. God does not directly intervene in our lives and is not a personal God.

 

[ERD50]

... For me, my beliefs changed. If you asked me when I was college if a tree falls in a forest and nobody is there to hear it, does it make a noise? I would have said, of course it does still. Noise is noise. But now I really don't know the answer. ...

Well, this is enlightening. To me, it shows some people are making things more complex than they are, and then looking for complicated explanations for simple things, or trying to add vagueness where none exits.

Would you say the Sun stops producing light when it is night time at your location? I highly doubt it. But that is an exact parallel to the tree/forest/sound question.

It's a simple matter of which definition you are using for "sound" (or 'noise' - though 'noise' is usually defined as a sound of indeterminate pitch). If you define "sound" as the human perception (ear/nerves/brain) of acoustic wave energy in the range of ~20 to 20,000 Hz, then clearly we need a human to have that perception. The human is part of the definition (or any animal with hearing in the range a falling tree would produce).

If you define "sound" as acoustic wave energy in the range of ~20 to 20,000 Hz, then of course the falling tree produces this energy. In no way is it dependent on a human being there. We can record it, put in sensors of other types, or just use our knowledge of how things work - how could these vibrations not happen?

Likewise with the Sun - define "light" as human perception, or as electromagnetic radiation, you get different answers. There is no conflict, there is no vagueness, you just need to be clear with your definitions. It ain't rocket surgery. It's knowable nothing to wonder about.

If someone leans towards complicating the obvious, that's a sign to me that they are going to have even more trouble with the complex. You don't try to understand algebra until you have a grasp of adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing.

It's not complicated. Don't make it so.

-ERD50

 

[Koolau]

Well, all I know is what I experienced. I don't try to explain it - not really defend it even (you either believe me or you think I'm full of it - I don't care.)

Trying to explain what someone else experienced is likely to be unfruitful. YMMV

 

[ERD50]

Because Randi (and others) have SHOWN that few if any can "do it" on command. From everything I've heard (AND experienced) such things happen spontaneously - not on command. If you know of folks who claim to "do it" on command - and they haven't been debunked, let me know.

One guy from way back - Edgar Cayce apparently could put himself into a trance and give psychic info "on command." I'm guessing there are others as well. BUT of those here in this thread who have responded positively - I've not heard anyone mention that they can "do it" when they want to. For me, the only thing I can connect to any "phenomenon" is being exhausted or just sleepy. I can't control it - nor do I want to. YMMV

Again, any evidence you have would be interesting to hear, suggesting you can turn "it" on or off.

I think we are just not communicating. I pretty much agree with what you say, but I'm coming from a different angle.

I'm trying to keep a 100% open mind. So whether someone can or cannot "do it on command" is for me, just an open question. I'm challenging others to produce evidence, and so far I've seen no compelling evidence. But staying 100% open, that doesn't close the case, maybe that evidence is still out there and I just have not seen it. I'm extremely skeptical, but I will not rule it out.

As to the other (non-physical) experiences shared in this thread, I've said, there is no way for anyone to really prove/disprove those, so I'm not even going there. I went as far as to say they *might* be explained by non-mystical events, dreams, memories being tricked, 'coincidences' that really aren't, etc. But that's only a *might*. I don't know how I can be any clearer on that, so I don't know why you keep bringing that into the conversation with me? I really have nothing more to share in that area.

-ERD50